Reading suggestions please

[Thwarp]

I've long tried to grasp the churches teachings on the trinity. My mind has always argued against Jesus being God when in the garden and several other places who is he praying too? Himself? I don't think so. He claims to be equal with God the Father. I accept that easily because I grasp that easily. If you've seen me you've seen the father.......yeah.....again he's not making a claim to be God......he's saying I'm so close to the father he and are might as well be one in the same. The two are one like. Much like when a man and a woman get married (This don't work for man and man nor woman and woman) the two become once flesh. This I grasp as well.

But in reading a book that is interesting and yet boring in some respect by Lee Strobel "The case for Christ" I bumped into a scripture that raised my questions again on the Trinity and it's nature. Daniel 7:13-14 which says

13 “I saw in the night visions,
and obehold, with the clouds of heaven
there came one like a son of man,
and he came to the Ancient of Days
and was presented before him.
14 And to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all qpeoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed.

Son of man is lower case here and I'm not certain if its a type O or what. But Christ called himself the son of man more than once obviously making a great claim about who he is. A term of great importance.
Ancient of Days......Used in reference to Almighty God the Father.

Now if I'm wrong on either of these two words then everything falls apart for me. But if I'm reading this right and the passages that follow then can I safely assume that there was a point in which Jesus had no authority and did not posses all things that are known? These things were given to him. Prior to the "giving what was his status? Most assured I'm certain he was the Son of God even back then. My brain is starting to leak here.
I don't want to try and grasp anything prior to this event really if its not necassary to understanding. I would really like to understand the entire issue better.
God and Jesus seem to be two entirely separate individuals that are one in nature (harmony etc etc) and one in mind and spirit.

I've read Father Son and Holy Spirit by Bruce A. Ware. A good read and shows me allot I fully grasp much of it. But it lacks something. I need more substance on the teaching.
Any more books out there that go into better depth on this?

[Gman]

Very interesting that you brought this up because I'm going over this too... Yes, there is such a book called "The Jewish Gospels" by Daniel Boyarin that goes over this very topic. In fact he argues that the phrase "Son of Man" is actually revealing the divinity of Christ much better than the phrase "Son of God." In fact, there are numerous cases where kings such as David were also called "Sons of God."

Here is the link to the book from Amazon.. I just got a few days ago and I'm starting to read it myself as well...



Shalom.

[1stjohn0666]

An interesting trinitarian teacher of today that I like is James White. His book titled "The forgotten trinity, recovering the heart of Christian belief" I suggest for an understanding of the trinity. I do not support the trinity in my beliefs, but it is a good read.

[Thwarp]

Very interesting that you brought this up because I'm going over this too... Yes, there is such a book called "The Jewish Gospels" by Daniel Boyarin that goes over this very topic. In fact he argues that the phrase "Son of Man" is actually revealing the divinity of Christ much better than the phrase "Son of God." In fact, there are numerous cases where kings such as David were also called "Sons of God."

Here is the link to the book from Amazon.. I just got a few days ago and I'm starting to read it myself as well...



Shalom.

Hail and greetings GMAN and thanks so much for the post and recommendation. I have indeed ordered the book but I'll also probably download it onto my tab for mobile access.
So thanks.

In so that as I would like to return the favor I won't. I don't like favors as they seem to impress upon me underlying tones of repayment. But I will accept the gift of your recommendation.

But let me also give you a gift. A book recommendation that has just blown my socks off.

"Who ate lunch with Abraham?" My brother I do like the title allot. Anyway the book is an author I've not heard of before. Asher Intrater. He is a Messianic Jew and an extremely well educated one at that. He sure enough knows his Hebrew very well. Much like we have people with master degrees in the english language, Asher commands an unusually astute understanding of The Hebrew language of old and he he uses it as if it was a part of him.

But the book itself is extremely well written. He does not speak like most theologians with massive knowledge of vocabulary and use of 20 letter words that only those highly trained doctoral theologians could possibly grasp. He uses simply everyday communicative skills than anyone except someone without a 12th grade reading level could understand.

More so the subject matter is beyond what I expected. I knew a few things about the subject matter but not the whys and hows. I sat at the mechanics this morning sipping coffee while they did some work on my truck. Before long I had gotten into section 5 and I was wanting more.

I cannot explain in a few short words the depth and nature of the book. But suffice to say I think he unintentionally fills in some of the blanks regarding the nature Of God the father , Son and Holy spirit. But its there non the less and quite bold too. In fact its unavoidable . So it really works well.

I'm enjoying the Jewish side of it and I'm truly beginning to grasp just how Jewish we (as Christians) really are since we have been adopted. We are just as much a part of the Old Covenant as we are of the New since they are both connected and both in effect as being one.

I'm really enjoying how He reveals himself in extremely personal ways. I even have a much better grasp of what was really going on within some of the patriarchs relationships with The Lord and how they were much more personal than we are taught. Relationships were much less callous than I was reading and more open and personal and loving than I could grasp. Case in point..... Moses spent allot of time on the mountain just chatting away with Him....what about? Lots of things. Moses was interested in allot of things and God touched upon many subjects with Moses. Hence why we have documents like Genesis. Talks with God. IN turn we see Moses wants more of him....wanting more of him because obviously Moses loved that connection with his creator so much that he wanted more and practically begged him to reveal his glorified face to him which we all know is not survivable. Not that its a bad thing by any means. Its like you can't get too close the the sun without getting yourself killed by heat or radiation (among other things) without some kind of shielding. Even so with shielding you can still only get so close.

Anyway I'm babbling and rambling trying to explain this book with great failure I'm sure. But definitely a super read. And its among the few judeo-christian books that have perfect reviews from my research look.

The price seems right for download and even the book seems reasonably priced. Hope you get it and through it The Lord will bless you with a richer understanding and appreciation for who he is and his nature as complex as it can seem. How beautiful it is no matter how little we can grasp it now. I just pray we can continue to grasp it more and more and appreciate and love him through it.

Unfortunatehttp://www.amazon.com/Who-Lunch-Abraham-Asher- ... JXZH29A7ly the book itself if out of stock (I'm not surprised) but its available for download too if you can't wait.


May He Bless you and Keep you

[bippy123]

The trinity is one of the toughest things to grasp in our Christian Faith, and not only for us but for the earliest Christians as well. In fact it took 300 years for the early Christians and many of the great Christian minds to come out with the doctrine of the trinity. Remember that the bible wasn't fully ratified and canonized until the late 4th to early 5th century at the council of hippo, Carthage and nicea, so it will take research and understanding of what first 300 years of The Churches Theologians to get a rudimentary understanding if the mystery of the trinity. It can literally give u headaches lol.

Here is a link with the writings of the early Church Fathers and bible verses that should help.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_ ... adition-II

[Thwarp]

The trinity is one of the toughest things to grasp in our Christian Faith, and not only for us but for the earliest Christians as well. In fact it took 300 years for the early Christians and many of the great Christian minds to come out with the doctrine of the trinity. Remember that the bible wasn't fully ratified and canonized until the late 4th to early 5th century at the council of hippo, Carthage and nicea, so it will take research and understanding of what first 300 years of The Churches Theologians to get a rudimentary understanding if the mystery of the trinity. It can literally give u headaches lol.

Here is a link with the writings of the early Church Fathers and bible verses that should help.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/jesus_ ... adition-II

Thanks Bippy, I'm definately going to be reading that in the next few min. I've also learned recently that while it seems that the idea of the trinity was a new discovery for Christians, the OT teaches it as well and it's highly probable that many knew about it just from studying the Torah. Incredible indeed. There is definately nothing new under the sun.

[Canuckster1127]

Karl Barth's Evangelical Theology is a high level read but it approaches the Trinity not just from the point of view of understanding it intellectually. It explores what the implications of the Trinity are in terms of seeing it as the foundational truth by which all other elements of theology are seen. The Trinity is more than just a theory. If it's real then it has implications that affect everything in terms of how we life and experience the Christian Life.