useless bum, but heaven bound?

[led]

Can a Christian go through life without doing a thing for God and still go to heaven? Can one sit on a log and fill his selfish sinful desires and slip into heaven? Or do we have put works with our faith. But doesn't that mean that we are doing something to get to heaven?

Where do we draw the line?

Led

[Jac3510]

We do not obtain eternal life by works (Rom 4:1-4). We obtain it by faith alone (John 3:16). Thus, our lifestyle is completely unrelated to our salvation. It is thoroughly related, however, to our discipleship (John 13:35). It is also related to our rewards, or lack there of, in the next life (2 Cor. 5:10).

The burden of proof, therefore, is on the one who believes otherwise if he/she wishes to hold to the position that conversion and salvation are contingent on works, be that by basis or logical necessity.

God bless

[led]

I agree that salvation is by faith alone and not of works.

As far as rewards go (which is a different topic altogether). What about Rev.21:7 "he who overcomes will inherit all things.

Are you saying that after we're saved, we don't have to do good works to get to heaven?

It seem to me that only those who work out their salvation, bearing good fruit, with fear and trembling will enter the narrow gate. Otherwise they will go to hell.

Thoughts anyone?

[Jac3510]

Yes, once we are "saved" we don't have to do any good works to get into heaven. Otherwise, you have salvation by works. Belief alone isn't enough . . . it's belief plus works to ensure.

Inheriting the kingdom is a reference to rewards. Not everyone will reign with Christ. Not everyone will gain their inheritance. Some will lose it.

[led]

So you're saying that don't have to pray, read my bible or have a relationship with God. I can just do my own thing... go to strip clubs, have one night stands and get so drunk that I start seeing straight...again?

I'm not sure that I agree with you on that. It seems to me that Christians have to obey God.

Isn't obedience faith with works in love?

[Jac3510]

If you walk in darkness, your fellowship with God will be broken, of course. But does that mean you cease to be saved? Have you ever done something that broke your fellowship between you and a parent? (or perhaps they did something to you?) If not, I'm sure you can imagine an easy scenario.

Now, the fact that the relationship is severed does not change the fact that you are still their child, and they your parent. Repentance and forgiveness are necessary to restore you to a proper fellowship, but not to say that you are still their child. The same applies to our relationship with God.

Here's a couple of practical questions for you:

1. How much/what kind of sins does a person have to avoid to be sure they "really believed"?

2. How many/what kind of good works does a person have to do to be sure they have "really believed"?

3. Finally, what would you say to the pastor who refuses to teach on sin on the basis that "real Christians don't live lives of habitual sin"? All he has to do is get these people saved, and God will take care of their sin-habits! Oh, they may lapse into little sin here and there, but the big ones (whatever that means) and the consistent ones (whatever that means) He will get rid of.

As for your question, yes, obedience (in most cases) is faith working through love. But, is obedience or belief the necessary condition for salvation?

[August]

But, is obedience or belief the necessary condition for salvation?

Rev. 21:8 (NIV)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

[Jac3510]

Yes, unbelief is a sin . . . the spiritually dead are unbelieving. Many of them are also liars and fornicators and other such things on that list. I'm not sure, though, what that as to do with the question of obedience vs. unbelief?

"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life." (John 6:47, NIV)

[led]

But where do we draw the line when it comes to sin in our lives.

1. Can we as Christians do whatever we want and still sneak in?

2. Do we have to at least be willing to deal with issues?

3. Do we have to bear good fruit?

4. If faith without works is dead then do we have to attach works to our faith for faith to be valid?

I thought about this the other day and it seems to be sticking in my head. there seems to be an urgency in the Word to change into His image and obey God.

[August]

Yes, unbelief is a sin . . . the spiritually dead are unbelieving. Many of them are also liars and fornicators and other such things on that list. I'm not sure, though, what that as to do with the question of obedience vs. unbelief?

"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life." (John 6:47, NIV)

If unbelief is a sin, and Jesus died for all sins, then it means that unbelievers are saved. But that is just nonsense, since you cannot be saved apart from faith. So then Jesus logically did not die for the sin of unbelief, and if we are to believe, that is to be obedient to Christ's teaching to believe.

Joh 6:28 Then they said to him, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?"
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

Furthermore, the verse you quoted, as well as the others, are in the present tense, saying that you must be a "current" believer to be saved. Furthermore, you seem to ignore verse 44&45:

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Those verses precede 47, setting the context that those that are drawn are able to believe.

The parable of the sower in Luke 8 confirms that we are to persist in belief:

(Luk 8:10) he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'

(Luk 8:11) Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

(Luk 8:12) The ones along the path are those who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

(Luk 8:13) And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away.

(Luk 8:14) And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature.

(Luk 8:15) As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.

Luke 8:13 and 14 are especially of interest to your doctrinal position. (13) specifically says that some will receive the word with joy, but their faith will "fall away". "Fall away" is from the greek aphistemi, literally to apostasize, stand off from, to withdraw from.

Verse 15 talks about the patience to bear fruit, that is to persist through tribulation, with an honest and good heart. How can that mean anything but to persist in faith, if we refer back to the context set in verse 12?

[IRQ Conflict]

1. Can we as Christians do whatever we want and still sneak in?

Isa 40:27 Why sayest thou, O Jacob, and speakest, O Israel, My way is hid from the LORD, and my judgment is passed over from my God?
Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

2. Do we have to at least be willing to deal with issues?

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

3. Do we have to bear good fruit?

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strewed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
Mat 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto everyone that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

4. If faith without works is dead then do we have to attach works to our faith for faith to be valid?

Works are the natural byproduct of faith. For if we believe in Him, we will do what He asks of us, if we do not do what He asks of us we have no faith in Him and are not of Him.

Mat 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name;

I thought about this the other day and it seems to be sticking in my head. there seems to be an urgency in the Word to change into His image and obey God.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

[Jac3510]

But where do we draw the line when it comes to sin in our lives.

1. Can we as Christians do whatever we want and still sneak in?

2. Do we have to at least be willing to deal with issues?

3. Do we have to bear good fruit?

4. If faith without works is dead then do we have to attach works to our faith for faith to be valid?

I thought about this the other day and it seems to be sticking in my head. there seems to be an urgency in the Word to change into His image and obey God.

I suppose you believe we can lose our salvation, led? To answer your questions:

1. Yes
2. No
3. No.
4. No.

The "faith without works is dead" passage is referring to temporal salvation, temporal judgment, and justification before men. It refers to the saving of the life, not to the saving of the soul. A faith that produces nothing won't do anything for anybody on a practical level, which is James' concern through the whole book.

There is just no reason to assume that our behavior has any effect on whether or not we go are can be justified.

EDIT:

August --

If unbelief is a sin, and Jesus died for all sins, then it means that unbelievers are saved. But that is just nonsense, since you cannot be saved apart from faith. So then Jesus logically did not die for the sin of unbelief, and if we are to believe, that is to be obedient to Christ's teaching to believe.

I've said this over and over and over again. Sin is not what condemns a person to Hell. Spiritual deadness is. Yes, the sin of unbelief has been atoned for, but atonement does not equal the imputation of righteousness. It just means our sin has been covered, thus rendering us savable. So, yes, Jesus DID die for the sin of unbelief. He died for all sin, except, apparently, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Furthermore, the verse you quoted, as well as the others, are in the present tense, saying that you must be a "current" believer to be saved. Furthermore, you seem to ignore verse 44&45:
.
.
.
Those verses precede 47, setting the context that those that are drawn are able to believe.

We've had this discussion before. Continual belief is not in view in these verses. If it were, John would have said, "He who continues to believe," and not "He who believes." I'll restate this again for the benefit of the G&S community, using 6:47 as a model:

"I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."

This is a propositional truth. Do I believe? Yes. Then what does the verse say that I HAVE, not WILL have? Answer: everlasting life. What is everlasting life? It is life that never ends. Thus, since I HAVE it RIGHT NOW, then that means that I am alive RIGHT NOW. If at a later time I stop having it, that means that I am again dead, which means that life wasn't everlasting after all. There's no way to get around this. A single drink from the fountain of living water is all you need (cf. John 4:10-14).

As for verses 44 adn 45, I don't see how that challenges my point. We have to be drawn to God in order to believe. How are we drawn to God? By revelation. See Rom 10:14

All Jesus is saying is that God draws them to Him, and they choose whether or not to believe. If they belive, they HAVE everlasting life. There is absolutely nothing in this passage about continual belief.

The parable of the sower in Luke 8 confirms that we are to persist in belief:

he said, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.' Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard. Then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature. As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience. (Luke 8:10-15, edited for space)

Luke 8:13 and 14 are especially of interest to your doctrinal position. (13) specifically says that some will receive the word with joy, but their faith will "fall away". "Fall away" is from the greek aphistemi, literally to apostasize, stand off from, to withdraw from.

Verse 15 talks about the patience to bear fruit, that is to persist through tribulation, with an honest and good heart. How can that mean anything but to persist in faith, if we refer back to the context set in verse 12?

This parable is actually one that supports my positon, August. Look especially at the first seed. The word of God was taken from them so that they might not "believe and be saved." But the next three all believe! What are we to conclude then? That they all are saved. If only the fourth is saved, then it doesn't matter whether you've believed or not. Satan can take away your belief at any time and rob you of your salvation.

So, the second two, as you point out, are believers who have fallen away. They have rejected their faith. But that does not mean that they are not saved. The text says quite the opposite. But what about those who persist in belief? They bear fruit! And this fruit will result in rewards. So, yes, this does mean "to persist in faith." But, nowhere in this passage are we taught that to not resist in faith leads to damnation. Again, the opposite is implied by Jesus' clear statement that Satan takes away the seed so that they may not "believe and be saved." There's a clear contrats, there, August.

God bless

[IRQ Conflict]

Sin is not what condemns a person to Hell. Spiritual deadness is.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[Jac3510]

Good verse, IRQ. It proves my point. Sin -> death. Death is the problem. This is contrasted to gift -> life.

The central idea we can't get away from is the fact that all sin has been atoned for; and this is not simply potential, but actual. Christ died for every human being to remove their sins. By this He bought ALL men (as per 2 Pet. 2:1). The question now remains: who is alive? The answer is those who are born again, which is through the free gift of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Please note, and this is for everyone, that I'm not saying there are no consequences for sin. Sin is what caused spiritual death. But, that doesn't mean we are condemned for sin. Consider this analogy: A man gets cancer and dies. His family decides to cremate him rather than give him a full funeral. Now, why was he burned to ashes? Was it because of the cancer? No, not directly. He was cremated because he was dead. We can futher prove it by imagining that before he was cremated, some doctor went in and removed all the cancer from his dead body. Yes, but he is still dead, and thus, he still has to be cremated.

The same works with sin and death. We are condemned for being dead. God is perfect and holy and thus cannot tolerate such unrighteousness in His presence for all of eternity. Thus, men are cosigned to the only such place possible for them, the Lake of Fire.

[IRQ Conflict]

My point Jac, is that sin does condemn us to death. That is, death is the product of sin. Spiritual deadness (unrepentant faithless) is sin therefore sin condemns to death.