Catholicism and Mary

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Byblos
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#16

Post by Byblos » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:25 am

Jac3510 wrote:
Salvation (or lack thereof) is pretty much sealed immediately after death
So salvation isn't sealed the moment we believe? (2 Cor. 1:21-22; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30) And isn't condemnation already sealed? (John 3:18) ;)

In all seriousness, how do you mean the above statement? How is our sealing different in death than it was in life?
Hi Jac,

You misunderstand me (and that's my fault as I evidently did not explain it quite clearly). I'm not saying salvation is determined at death or it must wait until then. What I am saying is that once a person dies the outcome of salvation cannot be changed (with prayers or otherwise). A person is either going to heaven or going to hell. The ones who face Christ (or in purgatory) are the ones going to heaven and those are the ones who may (or may not) benefit from our community prayers. Hope this clears it up.

Byblos.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#17

Post by FFC » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:30 am

Byblos wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:
Salvation (or lack thereof) is pretty much sealed immediately after death
So salvation isn't sealed the moment we believe? (2 Cor. 1:21-22; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30) And isn't condemnation already sealed? (John 3:18) ;)

In all seriousness, how do you mean the above statement? How is our sealing different in death than it was in life?
Hi Jac,

You misunderstand me (and that's my fault as I evidently did not explain it quite clearly). I'm not saying salvation is determined at death or it must wait until then. What I am saying is that once a person dies the outcome of salvation cannot be changed (with prayers or otherwise). A person is either going to heaven or going to hell. The ones who face Christ (or in purgatory) are the ones going to heaven and those are the ones who may (or may not) benefit from our community prayers. Hope this clears it up.

Byblos.
I understood what you meant, but Jac made a good point. Maybe fate would be a better word than salvation.

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#18

Post by Byblos » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:45 am

FFC wrote:
Byblos wrote:
Jac3510 wrote:
Salvation (or lack thereof) is pretty much sealed immediately after death
So salvation isn't sealed the moment we believe? (2 Cor. 1:21-22; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30) And isn't condemnation already sealed? (John 3:18) ;)

In all seriousness, how do you mean the above statement? How is our sealing different in death than it was in life?
Hi Jac,

You misunderstand me (and that's my fault as I evidently did not explain it quite clearly). I'm not saying salvation is determined at death or it must wait until then. What I am saying is that once a person dies the outcome of salvation cannot be changed (with prayers or otherwise). A person is either going to heaven or going to hell. The ones who face Christ (or in purgatory) are the ones going to heaven and those are the ones who may (or may not) benefit from our community prayers. Hope this clears it up.

Byblos.
I understood what you meant, but Jac made a good point. Maybe fate would be a better word than salvation.
Yes, I agree. Thank you FFC.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#19

Post by Acronym » Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:12 pm

She is very much alive in Christ
So what about my family members? What about Paul or any other apostles? Please give me a scriptural references that separates Mary from anyone else in this sense.

In that it is said we all die, we are all sinners, and anyone who sins shall die, this means Mary has died. How is she different from the rest of us?

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#20

Post by Byblos » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:10 pm

Acronym wrote:
She is very much alive in Christ
So what about my family members? What about Paul or any other apostles? Please give me a scriptural references that separates Mary from anyone else in this sense.

In that it is said we all die, we are all sinners, and anyone who sins shall die, this means Mary has died. How is she different from the rest of us?
Acronym,

God is the God of the living and not of the dead. Jesus in John 6:54 said
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

You have (not you will have) eternal life, then you are raised. Either this is a contradiction or it makes a clear distinction between eternal life in spirit first that will later be united with eternal life in the body at the resurrection. Jesus conquered death on the cross. Death has no power over us (believers in Christ) any more. We die in the flesh but we're alive in the spirit in Christ until we're resurrected and are in his presence physically.

As a Catholic I believe in the soul that's separate and distinct from the body. I believe after death a person is judged in the spirit first (purgatory or bema seat, or whatever else you want to call it). I believe the souls of the saints (those who have led exemplary lives for Christ) are already in heaven (including Mary and yes, Paul, Peter, John, and the rest of the apostles) and are able to intercede for us. I believe your and my family who have departed us can be either in heaven, hell, or somewhere in between (though temporary). Since we do not know who is where (other than for the saints) we do not ask for their intercession for obvious reasons. But since some of them can benefit from our community prayers there's no harm in praying for them, wherever they are (a far, far cry from necromancy). If you ask me for scriptural proof, please be prepared to accept the deuterocanonical books as part and parcel of that proof. Otherwise it's just a waste of time (ergo, like I said from the beginning, we'll just agree to disagree).

God bless,

Byblos.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#21

Post by Christian2 » Sat Mar 24, 2007 5:30 am

I'm interested in this topic because I have a friend who is considering Catholicism and I don't know much about the faith.

Where does the idea that Mary was sinless come from? What Scriptures?

Thanks.

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#22

Post by Byblos » Sat Mar 24, 2007 6:44 am

Christian2 wrote:I'm interested in this topic because I have a friend who is considering Catholicism and I don't know much about the faith.

Where does the idea that Mary was sinless come from? What Scriptures?

Thanks.
Hi C2,

The link I referenced in my first post above (Mary & The Saints) is a good start. Let me just state one thing, whether Mary was sinnless or not, or she was the product of an immaculate conception or not, doesn't really make a bit of difference (at least to me). Mary played a vital role in receiving and spreading the Gospel. She needs to be recognized at least for that, as eloquently stated by an evangelical in this link.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#23

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:23 am

Acronym wrote:In that it is said we all die, we are all sinners, and anyone who sins shall die, this means Mary has died.
Correct.

Hebrews 9:27

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Christian2 wrote:Where does the idea that Mary was sinless come from? What Scriptures?

Thanks.
Mans ideas, not scriptural at all.

Romans 3:23

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

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#24

Post by Byblos » Sat Mar 24, 2007 12:59 pm

IRQ Conflict wrote:
Acronym wrote:In that it is said we all die, we are all sinners, and anyone who sins shall die, this means Mary has died.
Correct.

Hebrews 9:27

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Your point is? Where does that preclude a Bema Seat judgment before the resurrection?
IRQ Conflict wrote:
Christian2 wrote:Where does the idea that Mary was sinless come from? What Scriptures?

Thanks.
Mans ideas, not scriptural at all.

Romans 3:23

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Obviously you did not read the link. It does not say Mary was sinnless nor is it what the RCC professes in the Marian doctrine.

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#25

Post by IRQ Conflict » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:00 am

I was just answering/commenting on thier questions Byblos. I didn't look at your links because they weren't relevant to my answers in these two cases. I was directing it at their comments and questions and providing scripture to back it up.

/no offense intended.

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#26

Post by Byblos » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:11 am

IRQ Conflict wrote:I was just answering/commenting on thier questions Byblos. I didn't look at your links because they weren't relevant to my answers in these two cases. I was directing it at their comments and questions and providing scripture to back it up.

/no offense intended.
IRQ, I'm having a deja vu moment here. Haven't we gone through this before (you and I)? In any case, there is NEVER an offense taken. You believe what you believe with conviction and so do I. The links are relevant inasmuch as they do provide scriptural backing (to the extent we can agree on what is scriptural and what is not). In addition, the link does not say that Mary was sinnless of her own accord (which is the most common misunderstanding of the Marian doctrine). I thought that was relevant to the discussion as well, but if I offended you in answering questions that were not intended for me, pelase accept my apology.

Byblos.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#27

Post by Vassal » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:06 pm

Christian2 wrote:I'm interested in this topic because I have a friend who is considering Catholicism and I don't know much about the faith.

Where does the idea that Mary was sinless come from? What Scriptures?

Thanks.
I would advise you to stay away from the Catholic religion. Catholics focus too much on tradition and as a result they have turned salvation into something earned by works, so much so that they have classified sins into different categories and given specific actions that must be done for forgiveness. Salvation can only be obtained by believing that God became a man, Jesus, and paid for your sins in your place and placing your faith in him.

Some people try to say that faith is not enough and that you must perform works to be saved. This is both true and false depending on the context. It is true in the context that you cannot just say “I believe” and live your life as though you had never known him, but false in the context that specific actions must be done to be forgiven for specific sins. Faith, by nature, implies that you have trust in something. If you had true faith in Christ you would do the things that he said, if you don't then it proves you don't have faith.

On the issue of Mary, I'm not disagreeing that Mary was a respectable person, but she is just that, a person. I see no scriptural reason to believe there is anything she can do for you beyond the example of submission to God that she showed during her life, or that she can even hear prayers. Praying to or worshiping anyone other than God out of the question, and there is no scripture example of someone asking another person who isn't living on Earth to pray for you.

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#28

Post by Byblos » Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:55 pm

Vassal wrote:
Christian2 wrote:I'm interested in this topic because I have a friend who is considering Catholicism and I don't know much about the faith.

Where does the idea that Mary was sinless come from? What Scriptures?

Thanks.
I would advise you to stay away from the Catholic religion. Catholics focus too much on tradition and as a result they have turned salvation into something earned by works, so much so that they have classified sins into different categories and given specific actions that must be done for forgiveness. Salvation can only be obtained by believing that God became a man, Jesus, and paid for your sins in your place and placing your faith in him.

Some people try to say that faith is not enough and that you must perform works to be saved. This is both true and false depending on the context. It is true in the context that you cannot just say “I believe” and live your life as though you had never known him, but false in the context that specific actions must be done to be forgiven for specific sins. Faith, by nature, implies that you have trust in something. If you had true faith in Christ you would do the things that he said, if you don't then it proves you don't have faith.

On the issue of Mary, I'm not disagreeing that Mary was a respectable person, but she is just that, a person. I see no scriptural reason to believe there is anything she can do for you beyond the example of submission to God that she showed during her life, or that she can even hear prayers. Praying to or worshiping anyone other than God out of the question, and there is no scripture example of someone asking another person who isn't living on Earth to pray for you.
You couldn't possibly be any more wrong. In any case, I've said what I had to say wrt the subject.

God bless,

Byblos.

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#29

Post by IRQ Conflict » Mon Mar 26, 2007 12:29 am

Byblos wrote: I thought that was relevant to the discussion as well, but if I offended you in answering questions that were not intended for me, pelase accept my apology.Byblos.
So we agree, your not offended by my offensive lack of offensiveness? :lol:

I am not offended Byblos! :)

I did try to get to looking at your links, in particular the firstthings.com one.

Unfortunately I had to go to work and now that I'm home my mind is in a bit of a fog (allergies I think). But I intend to follow up on it.

I must however apoalgize to you and the other users as I didn't read anything prior to the questions I responded to as I mistakenly ASSumed I'd already read it. In fact it was a different thread I was thinking of :oops: my bad....

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