Where We Go When We Die?

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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bluesman
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Where We Go When We Die?

#1

Post by bluesman » Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:22 pm

From Tomorrows World July-Aug. 2006 pg4-8
"Does the Bible really mean What it Says?"

"For no clear scripture in the Bible promises going to heaven as the eternal reward of christians. Rather, Jesus Christ said, "No one has ascended to heaven, but he who has come down from heaven, that is the Son of Man who is in heaven" (John 3:13)"

Roderick Meredith


Now I have been getting these free magazines and I do read them, but there is much of their theology that I don't agree with.
However, it also forces me to sometimes search scripture for proof of why I don't believe. So where do we go when we die? Straight to heaven or to sleep until the resurrection?


So far I have Luke 23:39-43

About the two thieves that were crucified with Jesus and the one who repented and asked Jesus to remember him.

"And he said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43 NASB).

Also there is Matthew 17:1-5, Genesis 5:24, Hebrew 11:5
and 2 Samual 12:23.

How does that fit with John 3:13?


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Moses and Elijah

#2

Post by bluesman » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:38 pm

How did Moses and Elijah appear with Jesus if Moses and Elijah were suppose to be asleep in the grave?

Didn't the whirlwind take Elijah to heaven?

What does it mean God took Enoch?

When did David go to heaven?

If Christ had to die for our sins, then how was Moses and Elijah able to appear?


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#3

Post by Canuckster1127 » Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:30 am

http://www.godandscience.org/cults/deadgo.html

This links to the main board and is a summary of applicable scripture verses.

There are varying opinions within orthodox Christianity.

Further there are distinctions drawn by some in terms of what happened prior to Christ's resurrection.

The most common explanation I'm familiar with in terms of pre-Christ is that Old Testament Saints went into a "holding" place or paradise waiting for the finished work of Christ at which time they were ushered into Heaven. Post-Christ believers then go directly to heaven.

That's highly simplified and there are many divergent opinions based upon different passages ranging from "soul sleep" (a state of suspended animation until the return of Christ and judgment).

I can find some links to other sites with explanations of the varying positions if you like.

Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender

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#4

Post by Swamper » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:25 pm

I don't believe that people who die immediately go to Heaven or Hell. I believe that no one will go to Heaven or Hell until Christ returns to Earth and everyone is judged. So what happens to the spirit after death, but before the final resurrection? I think it's possible for the spirit to remain on Earth until then, which would explain some sightings of ghosts (not all of them, of course, as some are just hoaxes, hallucinations, or possibly demonic spirits).

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#5

Post by Seraph » Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:16 am

If thats true then why would Jesus tell the thief on the cross that today you will be with me in paradise?

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#6

Post by SUGAAAAA » Sun Sep 10, 2006 12:56 am

I'm sure Soul-Sleepers would argue that the Greek translation of Paradise doesnt mean Heaven but the Earth.
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#7

Post by FFC » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:36 am

I believe the scriptures state that when we die we go directly to be with the Lord.
2Cor 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


2Cor 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)


2Cor 5:8 We are confident, , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Though the Lord indwells his believers He is seated at the right hand of God in Heaven.

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places]


Sleep is a term in the bible used for death and according to Jesus the spirit and soul are conscious in this state. Luk 16:19-31.

At the resurrection our bodies will be raised and united with our new incorruptible bodies. 1Thess 4:13-18 (we'll leave the rapture view out of this passage for now...either way it's still a resurrection verse)

1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.


1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

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sheol or hades?

#8

Post by bluesman » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:09 pm

I always thought Sheol meant grave in hebrew but now I think grave in hebrew is queber. Therefore Sheol is the place for departed souls/spirits.
Hades is also a place for spirits, but like a local jail, those waiting judgement
and sentence ie. "hell fire".

Certainly if you believe in people's near death experiences then there is a place that our spirits go after death and not to some long sleep.

I think if Sheol is not heaven , but filled with our loved ones and good god-loving people then it will be a good waiting area until the resurrection.

If you want to see some other discussion on sheol, hades,queber, etc see
JVIM newsletter of July 17th.

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Re: sheol or hades?

#9

Post by Byblos » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:04 pm

bluesman wrote:I always thought Sheol meant grave in hebrew but now I think grave in hebrew is queber. Therefore Sheol is the place for departed souls/spirits.
Hades is also a place for spirits, but like a local jail, those waiting judgement
and sentence ie. "hell fire".

Certainly if you believe in people's near death experiences then there is a place that our spirits go after death and not to some long sleep.

I think if Sheol is not heaven , but filled with our loved ones and good god-loving people then it will be a good waiting area until the resurrection.

If you want to see some other discussion on sheol, hades,queber, etc see
JVIM newsletter of July 17th.

Michael T. Willis
On another note, good to see you posting again Michael. How have you been?

Never mind, just saw the other thread. Good to hear you're feeling better.
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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#10

Post by Gman » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:40 pm

There are many differnet types of theories on this topic so I thought I would share a book I have about it called "Are the Dead Alive Now" by VP Wierwile. I simply scanned it into the computer for all to read... I don't necessarily agree with it, but I thought I would show it off anyways.. Enjoy..

Are the Dead Alive Now?

Most Christians hold the belief that upon death those who belong to Christ are immediately received up into glory, commonly called "heaven" or "paradise," to appear before the Father. There they are alive and conscious and have a joyous existence with God and their loved ones. Such a belief maybe contrary to the teachings in the Word of God. For if a person immediately after expiring is taken to eternal bliss, why is the return of Christ and/or the resurrection necessary? If after death the Christian is already alive and with God, why should Christ return to gather his Church?

If death is the entrance to eternal happiness with God, then death is not an enemy but a welcomed friend. If death brings us into the immediate presence of Christ, then the Scriptures are void and our believing vain. But death is not a friend, as I Corinthians 15:26 pointedly states: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." The enemy death will some day be destroyed but obviously it is not yet, as witnessed by the fact that funeral directors are not lacking for business.

Since death has not been destroyed, and since those who have died are not already alive and in heaven, where are the dead? What is "death"?
The word "death" in the New Testament is the Greek word thanatos, which is defined as "the natural end of earthly human existence." Thanatos is not merely an instantaneous occurrence when one expires, but a continuing state. Release from this continuing state of death hinges upon the return of Christ.

If release from death comes with the return of Christ, where are the dead until that time? The Bible says that they are in the "grave" (hades in Greek; sheol in Hebrew). These words are interchangeably translated "hell," "grave," and "pit." Hades or sheol is never the place of destruction; it is always the continuing state of the dead. The most accurate translation of hades and sheol would be "gravedom." Gravedom is the state in which all dead dwell; it is not a qeber, a spot where the body is buried on land or sea. The Biblical description of gravedom (the kingdom of all those in the grave-the dead), sheol or hades, is a place where there is no consciousness and thus no remembrance.

Psalms 6:5:
For in death there is no remembrance of thee. . . .

Psalms 146:4:
His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10:
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Because there is no consciousness in death, there is no awareness of time for the dead person. Thus the moment of a man's death becomes, for him, the moment of the return of Christ. But within the dimension of actual time, the moment of a man's death is neither his gathering together unto Christ nor his resurrection. In actual time he does not go immediately to heaven, but descends into gravedom, sheol.

Psalms 89:48:
What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave [sheol]? Selah.

Psalms 16:10:
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [sheol]. . . .

Psalms 49:15:
But God will redeem [to rescue by resurrection] my soul from the power of the grave [sheol]. . . .

Job 21:13:
They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave [sheol].

In everyone of these scriptures the Hebrew word sheol is used. Interesting to note is that the beasts go to sheol too.

Psalms 49: 12 and 14:
Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Like sheep they are laid in the grave [sheol]; death shall feed on them. .

Jesus Christ likewise descended into graved om when he died. If anyone should have gone to heaven immediately after death, surely it should have been Jesus. But even he went to sheol or hades. For three days and three nights he had no consciousness, as Matthew 12 and Acts 2 state.

Matthew 12:40:
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Acts 2:30-32:
. . . he [God] would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell [hades], neither his flesh did see corruption.
This Jesus hath God raised up. . . .

Just as all men who die, Jesus also went to hades. What then happens in hades? All is corruption and decay.

Genesis 3:19:
. . . for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Acts 13:36:
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption.

As all who go to the grave, Jesus too would have totally decayed if God had not raised him from the dead.

Acts 13:34 and 35:
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption. . .
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption [total decay].

God raised Jesus Christ from hades and its corruption. If he had not been raised, Jesus Christ would not be coming back again; and without his coming back, there would never be a release for any of mankind-Christian or non-Christian, saved or unsaved-from gravedom and corruption therein.

Hebrews 9:27 and 28:
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation [wholeness].

The time element between the word "die," in verse 27, and the word "but" is the time span between a man's death and his being raised.
"Salvation," meaning "wholeness," of verse 28 is the deliverance from corruption which will occur when Christ returns for the gathering together and the first resurrection of mankind. The dead are not alive to have wholeness now, for man does not have immortality now. We are yet subject to die and corrupt in the grave. When do we have immortality? With the second coming of Christ. Until that time, all who have died are not in heaven; they are in hades, gravedom. Death is not a friend bringing us into the presence of Christ and our loved ones; it is a blatant enemy, for in death all go to gravedom.

Not now, but some day, death shall be destroyed. Then the dead in Christ will have a new body-this time an incorruptible body, and the living believers will have an immortal body.

I Corinthians 15:53-57:
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [living at the time] must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
0 death, where is thy sting? 0 grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Death would end life forever for all humanity were it not for Christ's resurrection and thus his return to gather and resurrect mankind. It is then-with the return of Christ-that we have victory over death. Then we have immortality and incorruption. Until that time, the dead remain in gravedom in corruption and unconsciousness.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#11

Post by Atticus Finch » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:58 pm

Gman wrote: Because there is no consciousness in death, there is no awareness of time for the dead person. Thus the moment of a man's death becomes, for him, the moment of the return of Christ. But within the dimension of actual time, the moment of a man's death is neither his gathering together unto Christ nor his resurrection. In actual time he does not go immediately to heaven, but descends into gravedom, sheol.
I had previously struggled to understand how we are to die and not go straight to either of our eternal destinations. Your explanation makes perfect sense if events are to occur as you describe.

What do you think of Near-Death Experiences? The "dying-brain" theory doesn't really explain a great many stories of people's death bed visions.

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#12

Post by Gman » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:26 pm

Atticus Finch wrote:What do you think of Near-Death Experiences? The "dying-brain" theory doesn't really explain a great many stories of people's death bed visions.
Yes Atticus, many of these near-death experiences could simply be caused in the brain while the brain is still processing information or in a dream state. In fact, people in India claim to see their Hindu Gods after their return from death. What does that seem to imply?

I guess the other way you could slice it is that there is no time in death to the believer. So when they die the next thing they see is Christ or a tunnel of light to him... Almost like a time warp so they could be witnessing that too...

G -
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#13

Post by Atticus Finch » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:41 pm

Gman wrote:

Yes Atticus, many of these near-death experiences could simply be caused in the brain while the brain is still processing information or in a dream state. In fact, people in India claim to see their Hindu Gods after their return from death. What does that seem to imply?


Two things:

1) If it's simply the actions of a dying brain then of course it just reflects the social conditioning of the person and what s/he expected to see upon death.

2) NDE's could also be used by atheists with a negative spin. They could claim that since every culture reports NDE's of a varying nature, no religion has the truth at all.


Gman wrote:
I guess the other way you could slice it is that since there is no time in death to the believer. So when they die the next thing they see is Christ or a tunnel of light to him... Almost like a time warp so they could be witnessing that too...
G -


What does this say about the soul though? Is the soul eternal in its nature right now?

Death: Soul departs from body? "Before the silver cord is snapped asunder, and the golden bowl is shattered..." Soul stays with body till Resurrection?

If the soul is eternal then physical death will do nothing to it. It could then only take away the method of expressing itself as it does now through consciousness, the brain, the body, etc.

Does anyone have any good websites with possible explanations of the soul? Perhaps in a Biblical context? I wish Science could determine whether this is an actual thing or just a myth we're all holding to. That would be wonderful. It would change the world if such a discovery could be made.

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#14

Post by Gman » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:17 pm

Atticus Finch wrote:1) If it's simply the actions of a dying brain then of course it just reflects the social conditioning of the person and what s/he expected to see upon death.
Yes, it maybe possible...
Atticus Finch wrote:2) NDE's could also be used by atheists with a negative spin. They could claim that since every culture reports NDE's of a varying nature, no religion has the truth at all.
Possibly, but they could possibly be wrong to in light of this theory...
Atticus Finch wrote:What does this say about the soul though? Is the soul eternal in its nature right now?
Thus the story continues...

Body, Soul, and SpiritFormed, Made, and Created

When one does not understand the distinct differences among these words: body, soul, spirit, formed, made, and created, he falls easily into confusion. Biblically these words are used with precision and are not synonymous or interchangeable.

Isaiah 43:7:
Even everyone that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

I Thessalonians 5:23:
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For clarification let us look at three verses from Ecclesiastes.

Ecclesiastes 3:21:
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

Ecclesiastes 8:8:
There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death. . . .

Ecclesiastes 12:7:
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

In bringing about mankind, God proceeded as follows: He formed the body of man (Genesis 2:7); He made the soul of man (Genesis 2:7); and God created man in His own image which is spirit (Genesis 1 :27 and John 4:24).

God formed the body of man of the same substance or elements that one finds in the "dust of the earth." All substance eventually returns to its original state and the body therefore goes back to dust. The soul is the "breath of life" of man (Genesis 2:7), and the life of the soul is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11).

A man of body and soul is called in the Bible the natural man, the man of the flesh, the carnal man. The soul is also called the "spirit of man" for the soul is physical life and is frequently referred to as "spirit" in its generic usage.

All life is spirit, but not all life is eternal-life spirit. Soul life is spirit but not eternal; but the spirit from God in a man is eternal-life spirit. Soul life is the spirit of man which is passed on at the time of ovum fertilization, which event begins the life of a new organism, the end result being an offspring. Soul is attested to by breathing. When breathing ceases, soul life is no more.

All living animals have a soul. In Genesis 1 :20 and 30, "life" is the word for "soul." In Genesis 1 :21 and 24, "creature" is also the word "soul."

In Ecclesiastes 3:21 the "spirit of man" and the "spirit of the beast" is breath life, the soul, as is also the word "spirit" in Ecclesiastes 8:8. Can anyone see breath life? When one dies does the last breath go upward or downward? Does a man's last breath go up and the beast's go down? How do you know when you cannot see it? We do know that no man can stop the last breath from leaving; and when breath is gone, soul life for that person or beast is gone.

Soul life continues by being passed on to one's progeny. God made soul life only once in the original man and has never made it again in man. That same soul life is in all men today having been passed down from one generation to the next. Acts 17:26 says, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation."

In Ecclesiastes 12:7 "spirit" is not soul life-the spirit of man; it is the Spirit of God. God created man in His own image, and the image of God is Spirit. God as Spirit can communicate with spirit only, the same as senses-communication is related only by way of the senses. The spirit which God originally created in man was given on a condition. When man did not fulfill God's conditions, man sinned and was then dead in trespasses and sin without God. God had revoked His gift of spirit and therefore could no longer communicate with man unless God chose to come into concretion in one form or another in the senses realm. In not fulfilling the conditions which God had prescribed, man became a twofold being of just body and soul. He became then a natural man limited to information gathered by his senses. Physical man looked the same both before and after he lost the spirit, but he was not the same. Man had lost his direct communication with God and, consequently, had to live solely with the faulty aid of his five senses.

After the original fall of man, God's gift of spirit was at times put on some men by God for a special mission at a special time, and even then the spirit was on them only "in measure,"to a limited degree. Never did God fully put His gift of spirit in men until the day of Pentecost. All of the prophets in the Old Testament and prior to Pentecost except Jesus Christ; but on the day of Pentecost, every believer for the first time could have the spirit from God born within, so man could again become a tripartite being of body, soul, and spirit. This anointing with spirit from God places the believer again in the position where God can communicate directly with tripartite man. At the same time of death, this spirit returns to God who gave it.

Thus as the body is formed of dust, it must, according to all laws of life, return to dust. The soul was made in the blood and becomes nonexistent with a man's last breath (except in offspring). The spirit from God is created in the believer and at the end of natural life this created spirit must return to God of whom it is a part.
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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#15

Post by Gman » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:35 pm

Before the silver cord is snapped asunder, and the golden bowl is shattered...
Yes, the silver cord... I had a friend that told me once that he had an out of body experience when laying down in his bedroom.. So again we could say our soul IS spirit, but maybe not eternal spirit. Just the fact that he was able to have this experience (and I don't think he was lying either) shows to the atheists that we are spiritual beings..
I wish Science could determine whether this is an actual thing or just a myth we're all holding to. That would be wonderful. It would change the world if such a discovery could be made.
Also I forgot to tell you... There is some scientific proof that when a person dies their body actually becomes a tad lighter... So perhaps there is some soulweight, but the science isn't extactly sure of the real weight (like 21 grams or something).
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8

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