Convinced yet?

[abelcainsbrother]

As I said before, Jesus Christ isn't a candidate for POTUS. So, philip, just like I, voted for the best candidate that had a chance to win. Even if we say he's "less worse" than the other candidate, he's still not the antithesis of all Phil holds dear.

Jesus isn't a candidate, but shouldn't the things that Jesus cares about have some relevance to the behavior of those that we publicly support and enable?
The Sermon on the Mount (Mat 5-7) is an excellent description of Jesus' Kingdom priorities.
The Beatitudes provide an introduction to the heart attitudes that are important to Jesus.

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

I think that a strong argument can be made that Trump's behavior is the antithesis to what Jesus teaches in the Sermon on the Mount.

Judge.
https://youtu.be/UfVgimfNm4I

[abelcainsbrother]

As Q said "Senate was the key".Remember Trump campaigned only for Senators and they won and Republicans have the majority because of Trump campaigning for Republicans for the Senate.Trump did not campaign for any in the House.Senate was the key.Discovery is a powerful weapon and EVERYBODY WILL BE WATCHING if this gets to the Senate,the Democrats are panicked.Remember when Hillary said,"If he wins,we'll all hang?
Check out this tweet from Hillary

[Kurieuo]

As Rick mentioned earlier, Biden applied pressure to have a prosecuter fired. Here, in Biden's own words:

That is true... no one is disputing that...

So let me ask you the same question I asked Rick...

Do you dispute the factual accuracy of any of these three statements?
1. “Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”
2. There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.
3. “The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

Once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

I really don't get the relevance of your three statements, nor do I think you get just how deep the corruption likely extends. Biden, he's really just the tip of the iceberg at one end. Trump's call for investigation into the corruption at the other end has been blown out of proportion. What gets missed, are the years inbetween. Nothing to see there right?

I hear people saying more and more that the job of the news today seems to be to not report the real news. When real news is reported by individuals, then they jump up and down and cry foul, start applying pressure on social media, Google/Youtube to censor the people actually reporting news. The news they (the "mainstream media") wish to promote is always to do with the narratives they want to set -- and the purpose it seems -- is to keep creatomg fear, stirring up people and causing division.

So then, your last sentence of lies and misinformation of the "Trump narrative" just seems a bit rich, in that it has so much irony to it. Geez, forgive the guy (Trump) for giving a defense to the spin of the media. Yours (and Eds) views are just entirely upside down to mine. You are both so no-Trumpism, that it is to me much the same, only polar opposite, to Abe's pro-Trumpism.

Here. The Blaze guy, Glenn Beck, only just did a timeline of the whole events. I've only caught bits and pieces of information in the wild out there, but certainly not to the detail he goes into. He (it seems to me) does a great job of stringing it all together. Watch it, and see what the "news" hasn't been reporting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUZekJ3pfM

[DBowling]

As Rick mentioned earlier, Biden applied pressure to have a prosecuter fired. Here, in Biden's own words:

That is true... no one is disputing that...

So let me ask you the same question I asked Rick...

Do you dispute the factual accuracy of any of these three statements?
1. “Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”
2. There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.
3. “The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

Once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

I really don't get the relevance of your three statements

OK... I'll try to spell it out in detail.

The false narrative being propagated by Trump and his misinformation machine is...
"Joe Biden fired a prosecutor (Shokin) to benefit his son"

Let's look at these statements one at a time to see how they demonstrate that Trump and his allies are spreading lies and misinformation regarding Biden and Ukraine.

A. Statement 1
“Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”

This demonstrates that Biden was executing the foreign policy of the United States and that foreign policy was the joint foreign policy of the EU as well as pro-democracy anti-corruption forces within Ukraine itself. This was not some effort on the part of Biden to protect his son as Trump falsely claims.
If you want to go down some sort of conspiracy theory path, that's fine. But the goal of any alleged conspiracy would involve US foreign policy goals in conjunction with EU foreign policy goals in conjunction with the goals of pro-democracy forces within Ukraine itself and would have nothing to do with protecting Hunter Biden's job at Burisma.

B. Statement 2
There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.

This is one of the many fatal flaws to Trump's false narrative.
Hunter Biden was never under investigation. So there was no reason for Biden to take any action to benefit his son.

There had been a corruption investigation involving Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma, and his relationship with former President Yanukovych who was ousted from Ukraine and fled to Russia.
When Shokin (who had also worked for ousted President Yanukovych) became Inspector General he “dumped important criminal investigations on corruption associated with [former President Viktor] Yanukovych, including the Burisma case.”
Shokin had already halted the corruption investigation into Yanukovych and Burisma long before Biden presented the demands of the United States for Shokin to leave.

Hunter Biden was never under investigation, and Shokin had already stopped the investigation into Burisma long before Joe Biden made his demands. Which demonstrates yet again that the US Foreign Policy demands regarding Shokin had nothing to do with Hunter Biden.

C. Statement 3
“The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

The reason that the United States, the EU, and pro-democracy forces in Ukraine wanted Shokin removed from the office of Inspector General was that he failed “to indict any major figures from the Yanukovych administration for corruption,”. And as I mention above, one of the investigations that Shokin dumped was the corruption investigation involving Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma, and his relationship with former President Yanukovych.
So the US was trying to pressure Shokin and the Ukraine into pursuing corruption investigations involving ousted President Yanukovych and his allies such as Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma. Which is just opposite of the false claims that Trump and his allies are trying to propagate.

This is why I maintain that once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

[Kurieuo]

As Rick mentioned earlier, Biden applied pressure to have a prosecuter fired. Here, in Biden's own words:

That is true... no one is disputing that...

So let me ask you the same question I asked Rick...

Do you dispute the factual accuracy of any of these three statements?
1. “Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”
2. There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.
3. “The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

Once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

I really don't get the relevance of your three statements <snips remaining paragraph>

OK... I'll try to spell it out in detail.

The false narrative being propagated by Trump and his misinformation machine is...
"Joe Biden fired a prosecutor (Shokin) to benefit his son"

Let's look at these statements one at a time to see how they demonstrate that Trump and his allies are spreading lies and misinformation regarding Biden and Ukraine.

A. Statement 1
“Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”

This demonstrates that Biden was executing the foreign policy of the United States and that foreign policy was the joint foreign policy of the EU as well as pro-democracy anti-corruption forces within Ukraine itself. This was not some effort on the part of Biden to protect his son as Trump falsely claims.
If you want to go down some sort of conspiracy theory path, that's fine. But the goal of any alleged conspiracy would involve US foreign policy goals in conjunction with EU foreign policy goals in conjunction with the goals of pro-democracy forces within Ukraine itself and would have nothing to do with protecting Hunter Biden's job at Burisma.

B. Statement 2
There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.

This is one of the many fatal flaws to Trump's false narrative.
Hunter Biden was never under investigation. So there was no reason for Biden to take any action to benefit his son.

There had been a corruption investigation involving Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma, and his relationship with former President Yanukovych who was ousted from Ukraine and fled to Russia.
When Shokin (who had also worked for ousted President Yanukovych) became Inspector General he “dumped important criminal investigations on corruption associated with [former President Viktor] Yanukovych, including the Burisma case.”
Shokin had already halted the corruption investigation into Yanukovych and Burisma long before Biden presented the demands of the United States for Shokin to leave.

Hunter Biden was never under investigation, and Shokin had already stopped the investigation into Burisma long before Joe Biden made his demands. Which demonstrates yet again that the US Foreign Policy demands regarding Shokin had nothing to do with Hunter Biden.

C. Statement 3
“The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

The reason that the United States, the EU, and pro-democracy forces in Ukraine wanted Shokin removed from the office of Inspector General was that he failed “to indict any major figures from the Yanukovych administration for corruption,”. And as I mention above, one of the investigations that Shokin dumped was the corruption investigation involving Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma, and his relationship with former President Yanukovych.
So the US was trying to pressure Shokin and the Ukraine into pursuing corruption investigations involving ousted President Yanukovych and his allies such as Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma. Which is just opposite of the false claims that Trump and his allies are trying to propagate.

This is why I maintain that once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

Thanks DB. While we are each like jurors deciding for ourselves the implications of the quite circustantial evidence, and you explain the relevancy of your three statements well (I don't want to dimish the effort you put into writing all that), I"ll repeat again what I said:

I really don't get the relevance of your three statements, nor do I think you get just how deep the corruption likely extends. Biden, he's really just the tip of the iceberg at one end. Trump's call for investigation into the corruption at the other end has been blown out of proportion. What gets missed, are the years inbetween. Nothing to see there right?

Watch the video I linked of Glenn Beck, even 10-15 minutes in, you start to see the fuller can of worms opened, rather than 1-2 worms being about Biden and Trump.

[DBowling]

As Rick mentioned earlier, Biden applied pressure to have a prosecuter fired. Here, in Biden's own words:

That is true... no one is disputing that...

So let me ask you the same question I asked Rick...

Do you dispute the factual accuracy of any of these three statements?
1. “Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”
2. There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.
3. “The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

Once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

I really don't get the relevance of your three statements <snips remaining paragraph>

OK... I'll try to spell it out in detail.

The false narrative being propagated by Trump and his misinformation machine is...
"Joe Biden fired a prosecutor (Shokin) to benefit his son"

Let's look at these statements one at a time to see how they demonstrate that Trump and his allies are spreading lies and misinformation regarding Biden and Ukraine.

A. Statement 1
“Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”

This demonstrates that Biden was executing the foreign policy of the United States and that foreign policy was the joint foreign policy of the EU as well as pro-democracy anti-corruption forces within Ukraine itself. This was not some effort on the part of Biden to protect his son as Trump falsely claims.
If you want to go down some sort of conspiracy theory path, that's fine. But the goal of any alleged conspiracy would involve US foreign policy goals in conjunction with EU foreign policy goals in conjunction with the goals of pro-democracy forces within Ukraine itself and would have nothing to do with protecting Hunter Biden's job at Burisma.

B. Statement 2
There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.

This is one of the many fatal flaws to Trump's false narrative.
Hunter Biden was never under investigation. So there was no reason for Biden to take any action to benefit his son.

There had been a corruption investigation involving Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma, and his relationship with former President Yanukovych who was ousted from Ukraine and fled to Russia.
When Shokin (who had also worked for ousted President Yanukovych) became Inspector General he “dumped important criminal investigations on corruption associated with [former President Viktor] Yanukovych, including the Burisma case.”
Shokin had already halted the corruption investigation into Yanukovych and Burisma long before Biden presented the demands of the United States for Shokin to leave.

Hunter Biden was never under investigation, and Shokin had already stopped the investigation into Burisma long before Joe Biden made his demands. Which demonstrates yet again that the US Foreign Policy demands regarding Shokin had nothing to do with Hunter Biden.

C. Statement 3
“The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

The reason that the United States, the EU, and pro-democracy forces in Ukraine wanted Shokin removed from the office of Inspector General was that he failed “to indict any major figures from the Yanukovych administration for corruption,”. And as I mention above, one of the investigations that Shokin dumped was the corruption investigation involving Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma, and his relationship with former President Yanukovych.
So the US was trying to pressure Shokin and the Ukraine into pursuing corruption investigations involving ousted President Yanukovych and his allies such as Mykola Zlochevskiy, the owner of Burisma. Which is just opposite of the false claims that Trump and his allies are trying to propagate.

This is why I maintain that once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

Thanks DB. While we are each like jurors deciding for ourselves the implications of the quite circustantial evidence, and you explain the relevancy of your three statements well (I don't want to dimish the effort you put into writing all that), let me remphasise what I said again...

I really don't get the relevance of your three statements,

The relevance is simple and straightforward.
It demonstrates that Trump and his allies are simply lying when they claim that
"Joe Biden fired a prosecutor (Shokin) to benefit his son"

nor do I think you get just how deep the corruption likely extends. Biden, he's really just the tip of the iceberg at one end. Trump's call for investigation into the corruption at the other end has been blown out of proportion. What gets missed, are the years inbetween. Nothing to see there right?

Watch the video I linked of Glenn Beck, even 10-15 minutes in, you start to see the fuller can of worms opened, rather than 1-2 worms being about Biden and Trump.

Oh... I watched a lot more than 10-15 minutes of Beck's presentation.
And like I said, if you wish to buy into his conspiracy theory, that's fine... that's not the point I'm making.
Even if it's true, Beck's conspiracy theory does nothing to support the false narrative that Trump is perpetuating about Biden and his son.

[Kurieuo]

Beck presents a timeline of events, each part can be investigated online.

[Philip]

Look, there is a LOT we don't yet know - so, I'd wait a bit before becoming so sure of anything right now. One thing is certain about Biden's son - those Ukrainians weren't paying him a lot of cash for his supposed expertise - it was obviously influence they were buying! And it looks really bad, no matter if Trump's spin is way off the mark or not! Now Biden asserts he knew nothing whatsoever about his son's business dealings.

Sure, Joe, anything you say!



Now, would I be surprised at Trump's son's doing anything similar - no way!

[DBowling]

Now, would I be surprised at Trump's son's doing anything similar - no way!

Or even much worse... How about setting up a meeting with Natalia Veselnitskaya in Trump Tower to see if the Russians had any information on Trump's political opponent that could help Trump during the 2016 Presidential campaign?

Russia, Ukraine, and now China... do we see a pattern developing?

[edwardmurphy]

Look, there is a LOT we don't yet know - so, I'd wait a bit before becoming so sure of anything right now.

We're all sure that Trump pushed the President of Ukraine to investigate Biden. It's on tape and he's not even denying it anymore.

Nobody is claiming to be sure that Trump withheld military aid from Ukraine as part of a quid pro quo. There's evidence that he did, though - the whistleblower's report, the letter from the IGIC, the partial transcript released by the White House, the other letter from the IGIC, and now the texts turned over by Kurt Volkner - so I think it's reasonable to suspect it.

We don't know that the Biden story is false, but thus far there's no evidence that it's true.

There's a lot of evidence that it's false. If Biden was trying to protect his son from an investigation then why wasn't his son being investigated? If he was going rogue then it's a heck of a coincidence that the Obama Administration, the EU, the IMF, and the Ukrainian reformers had the same goal at the same time. It's even odder that Rob Portman (R-Ohio), Ron Johnson (R-WI), and Mark Kirk (R-IL) were on board with Biden's nefarious plan. Just how big is this conspiracy?

If we whittle away the silliness then we're down to Joe Biden getting his kid a job for which he was not necessarily qualified. Now, I don't love that but I don't think it's illegal.* Neither is Trump giving his daughter an office in the White House and putting her husband in charge of half the government. All of that should be. Maybe someday it will be. Until then it's just obnoxious. You can't justify pressuring a foreign government to investigate your election opponent because you're pretty sure the guy is obnoxious.

Now, would I be surprised at Trump's son's doing anything similar - no way!

Ivanka was granted 13 patents from the government of China the day after President Xi visited Mar a Lago. Nobody seemed to mind...





* Not a lawyer, could be wrong

[Blessed]

Edward Murphy,

None of this matters except for the fact it's intended to distract Trump from accomplishing what he was elected by WE THE PEOPLE to do.

It's all just a bunch of bla bla bla bla bla. Understand? All of it is utter nonsense. They have been overplaying their hand witch-hunting Trump since the moment it became apparent he had a real chance at winning the election.

We didn't elect Trump to be bogged down in the swamp. We elected Trump to DRAIN the swamp.

Nothing like this ever happened with George Bush Jr. - an establishment neocon war criminal and the worst President since Lyndon Johnson (or Franklin Roosevelt take your pick). Why? Because George Bush was the best President the Deep State ever had.

All of the fake media hoopla - an intentional distraction. All the people involved should be arrested and sent to prison.

[edwardmurphy]

None of this matters except for the fact it's intended to distract Trump from accomplishing what he was elected by WE THE PEOPLE to do.

The majority of US THE PEOPLE didn't vote for him, don't want him, and passionately disagree with the things that he's accomplished "for us."

It's all just a bunch of bla bla bla bla bla. Understand? All of it is utter nonsense. They have been overplaying their hand witch-hunting Trump since the moment it became apparent he had a real chance at winning the election.

Here's the thing - Russia did interfere in the 2016 election, and they intervened on Trump's side. That's a fact, supported by a mountain of evidence. Now Trump, confronted with that fact, could have said something like:

I'm pleased to have been elected President, and I believe that I'm the right man for the job. But that doesn't mean that I'll tolerate Vladimir Putin interfering in our internal politics. I will not. In fact, I resent the hell out of it. Free and fair elections are the foundation of our shared democracy, and I will not have foreign powers meddling in them. I have ordered a full, bipartisan investigation into this matter, and I will not rest until the guilty have been identified and punished.

Then he could have set up a bipartisan commission, staffed by trusted, experienced, knowledgeable people and allowed them to do their work without interference. And then he could have governed transparently, fairly, and without malice. He could have properly vetted his people, thereby avoiding a bunch of distracting scandals. He could have divested of his private holdings, thus eliminating any chance of violating the Emoluments Clause. He could have hired qualified people, rather than turning half the government over to Jared Kushner, giving his daughter an office in the White House, and sending his personal attorney to conduct State diplomacy.

But he didn't. He didn't do any of that.

We didn't elect Trump to be bogged down in the swamp. We elected Trump to DRAIN the swamp.

And yet he's had the most scandal plagued administration since Warren Harding. Trump has his own Teapot Dome Scandal every couple of months. Go figure.

All of the fake media hoopla - an intentional distraction. All the people involved should be arrested and sent to prison.

It's alarming that you and Abe always seem to want the opposition arrested. Lock her up (even though she's never been charged with a crime), arrest him for treason (even though he did nothing illegal), send them all to prison (for reporting things that the President did and said)...

You sound like a fascist. That's not hyperbole. You literally sound like a fascist. The Great Leader can do no wrong, no amount of evidence will ever prove otherwise, and all who criticize him should be rounded up and sent to prison. The opposition is a bunch of socialists intent on destroying America, the press is the enemy of the people, and only the Great Leader can save us.

You sound like you're yearning for a strongman to put us liberals in our place, shut down the lügenpresse, and protect you from change. That's insane.

[Kurieuo]

They should re-open the Russia investigation again once they're done with Ukraine.

[RickD]

Edwardmurphy,

Your posts are making ablecainsbrother's posts seem reasonable by comparison.

[Philip]

Edwardmurphy,

Your posts are making ablecainsbrother's posts seem reasonable by comparison.