Everything in Universe can be explained by natural means?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Phoenix
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Everything in Universe can be explained by natural means?

#1

Post by Phoenix » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:33 pm

I see this argument by atheists often. They claim the universe can be explained quite well by natural physical laws without resorting to a creator, and the fact that positing consciousness as metaphysically primary to existence is logically incoherent.

Thoughts?

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Re: Everything in Universe can be explained by natural means

#2

Post by Felgar » Sat Apr 16, 2005 1:51 pm

Phoenix wrote:I see this argument by atheists often. They claim the universe can be explained quite well by natural physical laws without resorting to a creator, and the fact that positing consciousness as metaphysically primary to existence is logically incoherent.

Thoughts?
My only thought is that the statement "Everything in Universe can be explained by natural means" is a statement of faith, no different than the belief in a loving creator. Since everything in the universe has not yet been explained by natural means, the statement is merely the atheist's belief that everything one day can be explained by natural means. It's simply a matter of putting one's faith in science over one's faith in a higher power.

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#3

Post by Dan » Sat Apr 16, 2005 7:49 pm

How do you explain the laws that govern reality? If they have a law that explains them (theory of everything that is), what explains that law?

Everything breaks down into something above the universe that has the quality of aseity. (God)

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#4

Post by Darwin_Rocks » Sat Apr 16, 2005 9:23 pm

How do you explain the laws that govern reality? If they have a law that explains them (theory of everything that is), what explains that law?

Everything breaks down into something above the universe that has the quality of aseity. (God)
Not necesarily. Just because we dont understand a concept does not mean that it cannot be explained in the future.

Im fairly certain that the ancient tribes of human civilisation would have seen the sun as an unexplainable God like entity. However now we can clearly see that the sun is a star.

The same can go for the origin of the universe. Just because we dont know how it is created, or how it is maintained is not to say that one day we won't find out.

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#5

Post by Believer » Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:00 pm

Darwin_Rocks wrote:
How do you explain the laws that govern reality? If they have a law that explains them (theory of everything that is), what explains that law?

Everything breaks down into something above the universe that has the quality of aseity. (God)
Not necesarily. Just because we dont understand a concept does not mean that it cannot be explained in the future.

Im fairly certain that the ancient tribes of human civilisation would have seen the sun as an unexplainable God like entity. However now we can clearly see that the sun is a star.

The same can go for the origin of the universe. Just because we dont know how it is created, or how it is maintained is not to say that one day we won't find out.
You're right, maybe one day we will find out the true origins of the universe, but for whatever the reason, there will always be a God behind it, why do I say God? Well, because without a God, life seems to be watered down to nothing. We would come into the world with no purpose and we would die with no purpose. There has to be a God, if Jesus said there was a Father, there was, that is secondary evidence for a God, and from the resources that have been presented to be, there is secular evidence for Jesus. If there was no God, then how can all these unexplainable things happen to people everyday? Things like visions (not a halucination), God's audible voice, instant healing from an incurable disease. Yes, someday science MIGHT be able to explain it, but God still leaves traces of how things were done in the body and universe so He makes sure that there is still the beleivers and non-believers. I personally have gone through things that are currently unexplained like hearing God's voice, being able to drive home on an empty tank of gas for an hour in a VERY crappy gas sucking car, seeing future events in visions that actually happen. God is a mysterious entity and he did mention in the Bible that our understanding of things is EXTREMELY minimal. We don't understand how God works, but he leaves traces of evidence to draw a line to him. Also, I keep getting a nagging feeling like the end is coming soon, Pat Robertson of the 700 Club has the gift of Word of Knowledge and he even said the second coming is coming soon, not yet, but soon.

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#6

Post by Darwin_Rocks » Sun Apr 17, 2005 4:05 am

Well, because without a God, life seems to be watered down to nothing. We would come into the world with no purpose and we would die with no purpose.
Why not? It seems more logical than an all powerful omnipotent creator? I mean there are dozens of examples of organisms serving no purpose. Just look at the Platypus.

Why is this such a frightening concept anyway? I mean sure it's a little scary but once you accept that everything ends one day. It's not to bad.

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#7

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Apr 17, 2005 5:29 am

Darwin_Rocks wrote:
Well, because without a God, life seems to be watered down to nothing. We would come into the world with no purpose and we would die with no purpose.
Why not? It seems more logical than an all powerful omnipotent creator? I mean there are dozens of examples of organisms serving no purpose. Just look at the Platypus.
Err... and what "purpose" do you suppose we serve? :lol: I think such shows creativity on the designers part.
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#8

Post by Believer » Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:28 am

Darwin_Rocks wrote:
Well, because without a God, life seems to be watered down to nothing. We would come into the world with no purpose and we would die with no purpose.
Why not? It seems more logical than an all powerful omnipotent creator? I mean there are dozens of examples of organisms serving no purpose. Just look at the Platypus.

Why is this such a frightening concept anyway? I mean sure it's a little scary but once you accept that everything ends one day. It's not to bad.
The Bible doesn't talk about lower lifeforms serving a purpose, it talks about the most intelligent creatures on Earth - Human Beings - serving a purpose. Yes, we do serve a purpose, but as I have learned, it doesn't come when you are a "baby" Christian, it comes later when God sees you have matured. Just like a down to Earth father to son deal. We are the caretakers of the world and if we don't keep it it in good shape, Goid allows natural conseqyences to hapen, sometimes divine intervention consequences to happen. The Bible isn't a fairy tale Darwin_Rocks. It may seem that way, and some things may be read like Lot's wife turned to salt is probably not to be taken litterally, although we never know. The best method for going through the Bible and UNDERSTANDING it is read one chapter at a time in one of the books, then reflect on it, I for one take notes. This process makes the Bible stand out more boldly. I used to be agnostic or a very minimal atheist myself, but as I researched, and researced, and researced, things were starting to finally come together that there was a God. I don't think of God as being contained in a multitude of books in the Bible, because he goes beyond that. God convicted me BIG time last year of my sins, and he litterally converted me into a Christian instantaneoulsy on top of what I have learned from all the research I did. It was the most overwhelming presence and I could hear God talk to me in that small still voice that the Bible talks of that wasn't mine.

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#9

Post by Darwin_Rocks » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:21 pm

Err... and what "purpose" do you suppose we serve?
Maybe there IS no purpose.
It was the most overwhelming presence and I could hear God talk to me in that small still voice that the Bible talks of that wasn't mine.
I've heard many Buddhists say the same thing but they dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah. How do you know that you are right and that they are wrong?

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#10

Post by Kurieuo » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:30 pm

Darwin_Rocks wrote:
Err... and what "purpose" do you suppose we serve?
Maybe there IS no purpose.
Perhaps. Although such would seem to go against what I'd call a foundational knowledge we have which makes us go through life acting like we do have some purpose.

It does raise the question in my mind as to why you'd bother with discussions like this. Afterall what is the point if we simply consist of chemical reactions just playing out their natural process? Seems kind of pointless debating if what I consist of makes me (and other Christians) believe what we believe, and you believe what you believe. Marx also once said that "religion is the opium of the masses," so why bother trying to take such away? If there is no purpose, at least leave us our opium ;). I just do not understand why Materialists bother trying to change the minds of other people.

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#11

Post by Believer » Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:46 pm

Darwin_Rocks wrote:
Err... and what "purpose" do you suppose we serve?
Maybe there IS no purpose.
It was the most overwhelming presence and I could hear God talk to me in that small still voice that the Bible talks of that wasn't mine.
I've heard many Buddhists say the same thing but they dont believe in Jesus as the Messiah. How do you know that you are right and that they are wrong?
Fine, you don't beleive me, God is a universal God to me. You may not even be open to thinking there is a God, but I KNOW He exists, I can't prove it, but I KNOW He does exist.

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#12

Post by Felgar » Mon Apr 18, 2005 4:50 pm

Kurieuo wrote:I just do not understand why Materialists bother trying to change the minds of other people.
Exactly. Makes no sense to me either. Actually I do know, but getting a materialist to agree with me would break their sense of self, and their not keen on doing that. :)

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#13

Post by Darwin_Rocks » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:10 pm

If there is no purpose, at least leave us our opium . I just do not understand why Materialists bother trying to change the minds of other people.
The same reasons most Christians do. Only when the majority of people believe in an ideal can we truly hope to change and broaden our thinking. If less time and energy went into organised religion and went into things that were worthwhile we can make the world a better and much safer place for those not lucky enough to live in first world countries

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#14

Post by Mastermind » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:12 pm

The same reasons most Christians do. Only when the majority of people believe in an ideal can we truly hope to change and broaden our thinking. If less time and energy went into organised religion and went into things that were worthwhile we can make the world a better and much safer place for those not lucky enough to live in first world countries
Why does any of this matter? We're just organic meatbags with no real purpose. Why is your imaginary purpose any better than a Christian's supposed imaginary purpose?
Are you threatening me Master Skeptic?

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#15

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Apr 18, 2005 6:36 pm

Darwin_Rocks wrote:
If there is no purpose, at least leave us our opium . I just do not understand why Materialists bother trying to change the minds of other people.
The same reasons most Christians do.
What because we believe we have found the truth about God, and want to share the same hope with others for their sakes and because we love God? Christians believe there is a purpose in this life. The first is to come God (which we believe is only possible through Christ), the second is to be a light to others in life (something not all are successful at).
Darwin_Rocks wrote:Only when the majority of people believe in an ideal can we truly hope to change and broaden our thinking. If less time and energy went into organised religion and went into things that were worthwhile we can make the world a better and much safer place for those not lucky enough to live in first world countries
Ahh ok. So as long as everyone believes in the same ideal you believe can we hope for such things? Nevermind that there is no "real" meaning in changing or broadening thinking anyway within your view since you have questioned there being any purpose. And lets overlook that noone really thinks for themselves on a materialist view since determinism would rule. We couldn't avoid our beliefs or actions anymore than an asteroid could choose to avoid hitting Earth if it was on a collision course. We would simply be a conglomerate of particles hitting each other.

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