The Catholic Church pronounces them infallible, so that their doctrine won't be questioned.PaulSacramento wrote:I am not sure where we got the notion that with the HS comes infallible truth or knowledge.
The apostles were not infallible and they made mistakes, as did the next generations.
I'll post them a bit later. There are also some interesting topics being discussed I might want to take a look at, too.Byblos wrote:They were all hand-picked by God, yes. What does that have to do with the subject? The narrow context I am addressing has to do with Mary's perpetual virginity. Clearly Moses and Elijah have nothing to do with that. The fact remains that Mary had the Son who is not Joseph's biological. If she had children by any other man it would make her an adulteress. Pure and simple.Mallz wrote:How many Moseses are there? Elijahs? (unless thesign counts..) How many Adams and Eves? People are blessed and graced to be chosen for a special purpose. That purpose is to be honored to bring His ways to us. I don't see why we should venerate Mary over anyone else. Still doesn't make sense to me. I wouldn't venerate her or any prophet over you, either. The glory is not theirs, it's His. And they are blessed/lucky to be honored by His use in a way that reaches the masses.Byblos wrote: So you don't see a difference between the masses and a single person who was chosen by God from before creation?
The underlined: Why do you think if she had children by another man she would be an adulteress? What if she was married to two men? Like how men can be married to two or more women and not be considered an adulteress.
I would be more than happy to answer your questions, if Story doesn't object (since this is her thread). And I would need you to remind me what they are.Mallz wrote:True, and I'm just expressing myself so can you learn me. I know I can come off offensive, so sorry about that. The questions I've asked in my previous posts were not rhetorical. It would help me out if you answered them. I'm curious about your opinion, too, EssentialSacrifice.Like I said, to each his own. Unrighteousness is evidently also in the eye of the beholder. And I welcome honest discourse no matter the level of disagreement. That we'll both get refined, of that I have no doubt.
On the basis of Christ's promise for guidance by the H.S. Without that notion I would agree it boils down to circular reasoning, from all sides.RickD wrote:The Catholic Church pronounces them infallible, so that their doctrine won't be questioned.PaulSacramento wrote:I am not sure where we got the notion that with the HS comes infallible truth or knowledge.
The apostles were not infallible and they made mistakes, as did the next generations.
Isn't that circular reasoning?
The church makes them infallible. Then by what basis are they infallible? The infallible doctrine that the church holds to, says so.
Aside from the adultery/polygamy implications which are very serious and unfitting, we go back to typology. More precisely to Mary's role as the new Eve (just as Christ is the new Adam) and her consecrated life to the Lord. Read this and tell me what you think.Mallz wrote:The underlined: Why do you think if she had children by another man she would be an adulteress? What if she was married to two men? Like how men can be married to two or more women and not be considered an adulteress.Byblos wrote:Mary's perpetual virginity
Philip, Philip, Philip,Philip wrote:What about where what the church teaches, and what various popes have declared, that DIRECTLY and CLEARLY contradicts Scripture???!!!
Haha, and I bet you know all about "doobies!"Rick: You just be a good little doobie, and do what you're told.
All kidding aside, it's a common misconception that the promise of infallibility is given to the pope or to the magisterium as persons as a blanket promise at all times and in all places. Popes and bishops are just as fallible as anyone of us, if not more. Infallible pronouncements are declared as such only when the pope (after various consultations with the bishops) they are made ex cathedra (from the seat of Peter) by the power and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Contrary to popular belief it is a rare occurrence.Philip wrote:What about where what the church teaches, and what various popes have declared, that DIRECTLY and CLEARLY contradicts Scripture???!!!
Byblos wrote:On the basis of Christ's promise for guidance by the H.S. Without that notion I would agree it boils down to circular reasoning, from all sides.RickD wrote:The Catholic Church pronounces them infallible, so that their doctrine won't be questioned.PaulSacramento wrote:I am not sure where we got the notion that with the HS comes infallible truth or knowledge.
The apostles were not infallible and they made mistakes, as did the next generations.
Isn't that circular reasoning?
The church makes them infallible. Then by what basis are they infallible? The infallible doctrine that the church holds to, says so.
Actually, this is quite correct.Byblos wrote:All kidding aside, it's a common misconception that the promise of infallibility is given to the pope or to the magisterium as persons as a blanket promise at all times and in all places. Popes and bishops are just as fallible as anyone of us, if not more. Infallible pronouncements are declared as such only when the pope (after various consultations with the bishops) they are made ex cathedra (from the seat of Peter) by the power and under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Contrary to popular belief it is a rare occurrence.Philip wrote:What about where what the church teaches, and what various popes have declared, that DIRECTLY and CLEARLY contradicts Scripture???!!!
Did anyone state otherwise?Nicki wrote:... but it's the triune God who can save us, who hears our prayers, who guides us.
To address the above,Philip wrote:What about where what the church teaches, and what various popes have declared, that DIRECTLY and CLEARLY contradicts Scripture???!!!
The list of CC teachings that directly contradict Scripture is lengthy! According to the CC, those of us here whom are Christians and yet reject the Catholic Church are NOT saved because we "refuse to either enter it or remain in it":
Catholic Doctrine: "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)
