B. W. wrote:neo-x wrote:
I listened to the sermon. I don't get the point you wanted to pick up from it. Was it the "being liberal" christian, adding your own beliefs going against the Bible, Bible being offensive and all? Unless that is what you think I am doing here, I missed the other point if that is what you intended. Can you be clear please. Thank you.
You mean you do not see it yet?
And you then stated this...
neo-x wrote:Yes true you can feel the notion of a creator but he is/not the personal God you know as Jesus unless you heard the gospel. That way all you can have is an abstract vague idea of a mighty creator but faith in a mighty creator doesn't save anyone, only Christ does that.
And in case of small children and if what others here are saying is true than small children, by logic, should go to hell since they never had a chance to hear the gospel at all and Christ is the only way. And this is by no means a slam dunk, I just think people should have the guts to accept the logical conclusions to their ideas, even if those conclusion are horrible, like in this case.
....FL, I really want to know what have you been reading which has made you so oblivious to the simple truth about God? unlike you, I am not talking about your entire faith, just tid bit of what we are discussing here. Namely those who never heard the gospel will be punished? Do you absolutely believe that and with that I also push to you the question I gave to phillip.
If you can, kindly remark on those
Your claim is based upon those not hearing as being innocently sinless so that that they should by right of God's love be allowed into heaven.
The CD sermon message addressed this: NO ONE is innocently sinless, no not one.
What part of that do you not understand?
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I never actually claimed anything like that. What I asked you was, that those who never heard the gospel can never be saved and its not their own fault?
Obviously all have sinned, but that is not the issue here, the issue is who gets the chance to be saved? First there is no scripture base on which this conjecture of yours could stand on, see highlighted below.
Again, it is written:
Job 34:21,22,23, "For His eyes are on the ways of man, And He sees all his steps. 22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves. 23 For He need not further consider a man, That he should go before God in judgment." NASB
God is all knowing and foreknows before anyone was ever born who will reject and who will not reject his free offer of reconciling Grace so much so that he can place people wherever geographically in life as best suited for them. Those that never hear the gospel their response is foreknown by God that they will never accept him at all and he can do with them as he so wills. God is big enough to send folks to these people, verify their rejection as true, and move on. Those who do not hear are just as sin ridden and corrupt as anyone else is. You and others may not like the answer but God does indeed know best.
How can you support that from scripture? It not even remotely close. Infact now you are bordering on calvinism or else being just plain wrong. If God knows and places people before hand who will reject him then by making them nonetheless, he is purposefully sending them to hell for no reason except his whim. Why make a defected person when you know he is going straight to hell?
The problem is not of my liking, the problem is, the God I know is not like that at all.
And the other problem returns again and I will put that to you to see how you fit that in, by your logic then, small children who die before having any idea of what really entails spiritually, some of them are indeed destined to hell then, for God would already know who would reject his offer and those children who if they grew up and rejected the gospel go straight to hell, without hearing the gospel or having the chance to respond? do you agree?
Further more, consider Peter, Christ tells him he will deny him three times and Christ also know that Judas will betray him, but when it comes to Abraham God tells him to offer Isaac up, if God already knew Abraham would do it then why call Abe out on it and then why say "Now I know you fear God".
Then when Israel battles, Joshua and Caleb puts Moses' hands in air and they do that so Israel could win, if his hands dropped Israel losses. So Did God knew Israel would win or did it depend on Moses how he decided it?
Did God knew Abe would plead for soddom and gommorah, obviously he knew there weren't even ten good people in those cities but he still doesn't tell abe that, less they be spared?
Do you think God knew Jesus would do as he was supposed to do or that some of the choice was with Jesus too, could Jesus stop and go back? Was it possible, potentially? I mean Jesus on earth wasn't omni potent, nor did he know everything. Infact he told his disciples that some of the things only His Fathers secret and Jesus did not know about those. In simple words did God knew what would happen or did he wait and verified Jesus to fulfill his obedience?
Further why would God need to re-verify someone choice, as you said before, when God knows they reject it? Is there are problem with God's foreknowledge, does he doubt it himself? Isn't it absolute and perfect? ofcourse not, and...then there is no need to verify anyone's position at all. But you seem to suggest the opposite.
