Does Evolution and Science draw people away from God?

[dfnj]

RE: Does Evolution and Science draw people away from God?

Absolutely not. Religion needs to look into the mirror as to why people no longer find any value in it. Religion is no longer about making people's lives better. Religion is no longer about feeding the poor or helping people in need. Religion nowadays is more about evangelism for the sake of money, power, and politics. That is what turns people off to religion. That along with child molesting priests certainly does not help the branding.

In terms of science, the words "evolution", "science", and "God" should not be used in the same sentences. I never understood why religious people are so anti-evolution. The lack of faith in God is stunning. If you truly believe in an omnipotent God then you know that an omnipotent God can create the Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating evidence. The theory of evolution is irrelevant if you accept having an omnipotent God.

My other problem with science is teaching evolution in K-12. There is absolutely no reason to teach evolution in K-12 because it makes people so upset. There are plenty of other topics in science that kids could be taught that teaches them good scientific methods. Save the theory of evolution for college level classes. There are plenty of things to teach kids that are completely non-controversial. Make Classical Mechanics and Neutonain physics mandatory. The complete lack of empathy for other people's feelings in this society is breathtaking.

But if science teachers choose to refrain from teaching controversial evolution, how nice would it be if religious people had some empathy for non-believers. Take the pledge of allegiance. In 1955 "under God" was added. But the original Francis Bellamy version was:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

Once you add "under God" does that mean atheists and agnostics no longer get the same liberties and justice guarenteed to everyone who believes in God? I believe in God but at the same time I would prefer not to offend anyone who doesn't. I think it is important to be humble about such matters. I think it is important to be respectful to other people who do not share our beliefs. And people are wondering what really is turning people away from God?

[Danieltwotwenty]

I so wish this thread wasn't started lol. It just going to turn into another anti-evolution thread.

Yea sorry Neo-X, I thought this might happen also, people just can't stay on point and no one has even attempted to attack my points of that it is not necessarily evolution, science, philosophy, drugs, alcohol, morality etc.. Etc.. That draws people away from God but rather it is a spiritual problem we have and these things are just excuses we use, if it wasn't evolution it would be something else. Everything can be used for evil, including the Bible, including theology, even Jesus' words can be used as an excuse to turn from God, but that in no way makes those things bad, it just makes people bad.

Dan, you started a thread 'does evolution and science draw people away from God?' Then ask why nobody has addressed the social issues; drugs, alcohol ect and the moral issues. That would be because it is totally off topic from the thread. You asked a specific question relating to science, perhaps you should have made it a little more general 'how does science, social issues, addictions, morality ect draw people away from God'
Just sayin....

You missed my point, it is on topic because my argument is that it is not evolution or science but a spiritual issue and I was giving proof of that, evolution is just an excuse for an underlying spiritual issue, evolution itself does not draw people away from God, this is clearly evident.

[Audie]

RE:

Does Evolution and Science draw people away from God?

Absolutely not.

Educated people dont tend to be fundamentalists. Science has certainly shown that some literal radings of the bible simply are not true. Im sure some people move away from those interpretations, sometimes, when they see that they are mistaken.

In terms of science, the words "evolution", "science", and "God" should not be used in the same sentences. I never understood why religious people are so anti-evolution. The lack of faith in God is stunning. If you truly believe in an omnipotent God then you know that an omnipotent God can create the Universe in any amount of time including all the fake carbon dating evidence. The theory of evolution is irrelevant if you accept having an omnipotent God.

Last Thursdayism or "embedded age" is a sorry explanation, dont you think?

The faith you refer to seems to me to be kind of the other way around. Its looks to me more like a stunning (and most disrespectful) faith in themselves. As in I read the Bible I say it means a literal world wide flood and I am right.

Never mind that there so very plainly was not, and that to say God committed such a heinous act is not real respectful of such God as there may be.

My other problem with science is teaching evolution in K-12. There is absolutely no reason to teach evolution in K-12 because it makes people so upset.

Couldnt agree with you less. Now, I will agree that it is taught badly, but its not like everyone will go to college. Also, I object in principle to the idea that controversy is to be avoided. I think some people NEED to be upset.

There are plenty of other topics in science that kids could be taught that teaches them good scientific methods. Save the theory of evolution for college level classes. There are plenty of things to teach kids that are completely non-controversial. Make Classical Mechanics and Neutonain physics mandatory. The complete lack of empathy for other people's feelings in this society is breathtaking.

Oh, I dont know. Speaking as a "minority", the amount of politically correct pussyfooting I encounter is whats breathtaking.

And again, I favour teaching and discussing controversial things. Think thru why you do not, and get back to us?

But if science teachers choose to refrain from teaching controversial evolution, how nice would it be if religious people had some empathy for non-believers. Take the pledge of allegiance. In 1955 "under God" was added. But the original Francis Bellamy version was:

Speaking as a non citizen of the USA, and an atheist besides, I never minded the oath of allegiance. The "under god" part is just words, a chant. If I testified in court, I'd say it. I would be loyal to the USA if called on to be, and I wouldnt lie in court.

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

Once you add "under God" does that mean atheists and agnostics no longer get the same liberties and justice guarenteed to everyone who believes in God? I believe in God but at the same time I would prefer not to offend anyone who doesn't.

Well, I say pooey on those who choose to be or pretend to be "offended". Honestly, people in America!

I think it is important to be humble about such matters. I think it is important to be respectful to other people who do not share our beliefs. And people are wondering what really is turning people away from God?

Now, I dont think there is a God to be turned away from, but as for wanting to be like the nominal Christians that I generally observe, heck no. No way.

There are a few Christians who I greatly admire for their faith as it is expressed in their daily life. A very few. Nothing like some pledge, no crazy televangelist, or any other unfortunate behaviour on anyone else's part would affect my respect for them. Or make me think there is anything wrong with their faith.

Take if from me, if you will, an atheist observer of Christians. Its Christians who
make me not want to be a Christian. Simple.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Stop trying to get me in trouble with the Mod's if you have truth on your side you won't need their help

I have never tried to get the mods to censor you (I am sure you are quite capable of doing that on your own), if they decide to do that according to the forum rules then all well and good, I don't agree with you type of argumentation tactics and I don't think they are good for a discussion forum.

this thread is about evolution and if it draws man away from God and many Christians disagree with you

Many also agree with me, how is this of any consequence, all it is, is argumentum ad populum which is faulty reasoning. I disagree with you also and just simply stated that, I don't know why you are attacking me personally now.

,you don't have to take it personal and when you do it is a sign of weakness,not strength.

I haven't taken anything you have said personally at all, I have heard all these arguments many times before and have developed a thick skin over the years and as I stated in another thread there are reasons why people get emotional and I have admitted I used to, but now I realise the reasons why and I can now divorce myself from feeling like that.

I do not judge you or any person's salvation but just because a person is saved does not mean he can't be wrong.

I never said you did specifically, in other threads I was talking more in general, it was Mel who bought you into the subject, so we used you as an example. This is why I wish Mel didn't bring you into it as it just colours the issue and detracts from the general idea of destructive behaviour, but what is done is done.

I am a gap theorist and I actually like to being challenged on it and if somebody can ever show me biblically why I am wrong,I will change my mind,so far, not one has

Prove "you" wrong, you cannot prove wrong a person who doesn't accept the "words" of men. It's funny though and quite revealing that you said prove why I am wrong, should it not be prove why God's word says such and such, seems to me you are admitting it is just your interpretation and is just the words of a man, which as you say cannot be trusted.

Seriously Dan, really?
'It was Mel who brought you into this, we just used you as an example. This is why I wish Mel didn't bring you as it just colours the issue and detracts from the general idea of destructive behaviour but what is done is done'

The fact is you were talking about Abel anyway. If you were so wishing that the poor bloke wasn't dragged into it, then you would have refrained from using him as an example instead of jumping on the bandwagon and continually referring to him, mind you in a negative tense. What you have done here is used my apology to Abel and my admittance that I should not have singled him out as a tactic for arguments sake. I don't think that's particularly noble.
Look at how many times YOU singled him out, look over the thread at how many times you post ACB even after this post. Not the actions of a bloke who is 'wishing' he was never involved.
I genuinely tried to stick up for someone, and I should never have singled him out based on what came there after. Don't use my initial lack of better judgement to excuse your singling out of an individual.
Pretty ironic that you threw my name into the mix outta nowhere, but we wouldn't want to single someone out right?

Actually no I wasn't talking about ACB whatsoever with the thread topic, this has been a long standing issue for quite some time, this was a general issue which I thought needed discussing and I wanted to share my thoughts on it and share what I had learned from the AA program and from meditation and self introspection. How is it ironic, I was just explaining exactly what happened, it's not my fault you bought him into it (especially when the subject wasn't particularly about him), I have already admitted it was against my better judgement to continue with it, so I don't see why you are continuing with this. Take it to private chat if you have a beef and stop parading it around like it means something.

Edit. Just to reiterate so there is no confusion, that thread was never about ACB, you presumed it was and you know what they say about presumptions, it was about my personal journey with an issue that has been present with myself and with others on this board for a long time, way before ACB ever came along, if you read my opening thoughts on this you can clearly see that. You, I repeat you, felt the need to bring ACB into it, that was never my intention, if it was I would have mentioned him in the OP, I have taken my share of the blame, so stop waving this around like you are winning some sort of moral high ground. You are destroying my serenity and taking me back to that place I don't want to go to, I don't like it and this will be the last I will say of it, for my own personal sanity.

Edit.edit.I read back over the thread...... I also never attacked ACB personally and was respectful towards him the whole time, it was just his position that I attacked, which I honestly do not agree with, I don't see there is anything wrong with that and I did apologise to ACB if he took offence, so I really don't know why you keep bringing this up. sheesh

[melanie]

There is a lot I could say but I will refrain.
It is difficult in life and especially on these types of forums to remain both extrospective and introspective.
Have a good day Dan

[abelcainsbrother]

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Maybe Neanderthals were the descendants of Cain because if I read the bible and then read what secular scientists say about them,it seems to fit.

I think you mean ancestors, not descendants. Unless you're saying Cain, a homo sapien sapien lived before Neanderthals.

But then again, you believe in the Gap Theory, so you could believe Cain lived before Neanderthals.

Scientists are looking at everything from an evolution perspective including Neanderthals and as this web-sight showed they did not evolve into man like evolutionists first thought,man is unique,yet scientists look at everything from an evolution perspective even though not one scientist has ever even demonstrated life evolves,because they believe in evolution their dating is totally off.Whether you accept the gap theory or not. I have read the bible about Cain and his descendants and have read what scientists say about Neanderthals,other people should too,I think.I just don't look at the evidence from an evolution perspective like they do.I look at it from the gap theory perspective for now.

[Danieltwotwenty]

Now, I dont think there is a God to be turned away from, but as for wanting to be like the nominal Christians that I generally observe, heck no. No way.

There are a few Christians who I greatly admire for their faith as it is expressed in their daily life. A very few. Nothing like some pledge, no crazy televangelist, or any other unfortunate behaviour on anyone else's part would affect my respect for them. Or make me think there is anything wrong with their faith.

Take if from me, if you will, an atheist observer of Christians. Its Christians who
make me not want to be a Christian. Simple.

Thank you for your candour Audie

I had the same issue, it wasn't science or any theory that pulled me away from Christ, it's was the behaviour of Christians (particularly the ones with the "I have the absolute truth" attitude, or "my interpretation is 100% correct" attitude), then later I realised we are all broken in some way or another and came back to Christ.

Edit. So there is no confusion I just wanted to add that there were many other reasons for my decision at the time and not just the attitudes of some Christians.

[Audie]

Now, I dont think there is a God to be turned away from, but as for wanting to be like the nominal Christians that I generally observe, heck no. No way.

There are a few Christians who I greatly admire for their faith as it is expressed in their daily life. A very few. Nothing like some pledge, no crazy televangelist, or any other unfortunate behaviour on anyone else's part would affect my respect for them. Or make me think there is anything wrong with their faith.

Take if from me, if you will, an atheist observer of Christians. Its Christians who
make me not want to be a Christian. Simple.

Thank you for your candour Audie

I had the same issue, it wasn't science or any theory that pulled me away from Christ, it's was the behaviour of Christians (particularly the ones with the "I have the absolute truth" attitude, or "my interpretation is 100% correct" attitude), then later I realised we are all broken in some way or another and came back to Christ.

Edit. So there is no confusion I just wanted to add that there were many other reasons for my decision at the time and not just the attitudes of some Christians.

Actually, I see I kind of said it wrong, above.

Christians as a rule do not make me want to be like them. Definitely not.

However, the reason I am not a Christian regardless of the others who are, is that i just do not find the Bible to be a credible book, nor do I see any reason to think that any sort of god exists.

Of course, for me, there is no "back to", as I was raised in an atheist home.

[PaulSacramento]

When I was close to being an atheist (more agnostic than anything else since atheism made very little sense to me), I also saw the behaviour of SOME Christians as a major put off.
I soon realized I was looking for excuses not to believe and to criticize more than truly looking at what was.
There is bad behaviour in ALL people, regardless of religion or lack there of and since Christianity never claims that being a Christian makes one a better person ( on the contrary, it actually points out that the body of Christ is a hospital for the sick, not a museum for the Saints), I was using a false view to judge where I had no right to judge.
Many religious people piss me off and many non-religious people piss me off and many atheists piss me off.
What do they all have in common ( besides pissing me off)?
They are PEOPLE.
And some people suck.
I realized that I can't and shouldn't use the behaviour that I JUDGE people by as a judgment on what they SHOULD belief and whatever way that SHOULD make them act.

See, at times I am a really nice guy, very loving and giving and at others I am a real ASS.

I can say this though, I am a far better person WITH Christ than I WAS without Him.
Does that make me a good or better person?
NO.
It just means I am BETTER with Christ than I WAS without Him.

So sometimes I wonder, when I see a real jerk that professes to be a Christian, how much of an ASS He was WITHOUT Christ ( if He has Christ of course).

[PaulSacramento]

However, the reason I am not a Christian regardless of the others who are, is that i just do not find the Bible to be a credible book, nor do I see any reason to think that any sort of god exists.

Yeah, used to thing that way too.
Funny is that I became a Christian IN SPITE of those things.
As a Christian I have had the previlage to actually study the bible and now realize that what I did not find credible was NOT the bible, but MY UNDERSTANDING of what I THOUGHT the bible was.
And as for reason to think that God ( any type of god) exists.
Well, I have a huge collection of apologetic's that has showed me quite a few different paths of reason that all lead to God, so...

[Audie]

However, the reason I am not a Christian regardless of the others who are, is that i just do not find the Bible to be a credible book, nor do I see any reason to think that any sort of god exists.

Yeah, used to thing that way too.
Funny is that I became a Christian IN SPITE of those things.
As a Christian I have had the previlage to actually study the bible and now realize that what I did not find credible was NOT the bible, but MY UNDERSTANDING of what I THOUGHT the bible was.
And as for reason to think that God ( any type of god) exists.
Well, I have a huge collection of apologetic's that has showed me quite a few different paths of reason that all lead to God, so...

I can see your idea, that the non credible was in your understanding.

II do of course, notice that everyone seems to feel that their reading is the correct one.

It does sound as if you started your search with the belief that there is a god, and perhaps that is also why all paths of reason (that start out that way) lead to god.

As for the apologetics, you do know that one can use math to prove things that dont happen to be true?

[PaulSacramento]

However, the reason I am not a Christian regardless of the others who are, is that i just do not find the Bible to be a credible book, nor do I see any reason to think that any sort of god exists.

Yeah, used to thing that way too.
Funny is that I became a Christian IN SPITE of those things.
As a Christian I have had the previlage to actually study the bible and now realize that what I did not find credible was NOT the bible, but MY UNDERSTANDING of what I THOUGHT the bible was.
And as for reason to think that God ( any type of god) exists.
Well, I have a huge collection of apologetic's that has showed me quite a few different paths of reason that all lead to God, so...

I can see your idea, that the non credible was in your understanding.

II do of course, notice that everyone seems to feel that their reading is the correct one.

It does sound as if you started your search with the belief that there is a god, and perhaps that is also why all paths of reason (that start out that way) lead to god.

As for the apologetics, you do know that one can use math to prove things that dont happen to be true?

See I don't feel that MINE is THE correct one at all.
I feel it is correct for ME.
It was my path and how I came to Christ.
Your mileage will vary as they say ( if you do come to Christ).

It is important to understand that everyone that does come to Christ tend to come in different ways because He speaks to us on OUR terms AND on HIS terms.
It took a very long time but He answered all my issues.
There is a reason that there are many paths to Christ.

There are many stories of atheists becoming believers and usually they are based on reason.

[Audie]

However, the reason I am not a Christian regardless of the others who are, is that i just do not find the Bible to be a credible book, nor do I see any reason to think that any sort of god exists.

Yeah, used to thing that way too.
Funny is that I became a Christian IN SPITE of those things.
As a Christian I have had the previlage to actually study the bible and now realize that what I did not find credible was NOT the bible, but MY UNDERSTANDING of what I THOUGHT the bible was.
And as for reason to think that God ( any type of god) exists.
Well, I have a huge collection of apologetic's that has showed me quite a few different paths of reason that all lead to God, so...

I can see your idea, that the non credible was in your understanding.

II do of course, notice that everyone seems to feel that their reading is the correct one.

It does sound as if you started your search with the belief that there is a god, and perhaps that is also why all paths of reason (that start out that way) lead to god.

As for the apologetics, you do know that one can use math to prove things that dont happen to be true?

See I don't feel that MINE is THE correct one at all.
I feel it is correct for ME.
It was my path and how I came to Christ.
Your mileage will vary as they say ( if you do come to Christ).

It is important to understand that everyone that does come to Christ tend to come in different ways because He speaks to us on OUR terms AND on HIS terms.
It took a very long time but He answered all my issues.
There is a reason that there are many paths to Christ.

There are many stories of atheists becoming believers and usually they are based on reason.

I do know that it is said each has his own path, thanks for mentioning it tho.


Many stories of the opposite, too. As for the "usually", Id need that demonstrated.

[PaulSacramento]

As for the "usually", Id need that demonstrated

.

Google is your friend...

[Audie]

As for the "usually", Id need that demonstrated

.

Google is your friend...

Ok, I will take it then that you just made an assertion.

There is also the matter of equivocation on the word "reason".