Christian vs. public school education

[ClassicalTeacher]

I would like to start or be a part of a discussion about Christian education vs. public school education. Where would be the best place to start such a discussion? Or is that kind of a discussion allowed?

[Silvertusk]

This place is as good as any - or in the Christian Chat forum.

[Silvertusk]

Would be an interesting conversation as I am Teacher also.

[ClassicalTeacher]

Would be an interesting conversation as I am Teacher also.

Very cool! What do you teach? Grade level? Public or private?

I have been a teacher for over 25 years and I spent 7 of those years as a principal in 3 different schools. I am a classically trained teacher. I teach primarily math and science in grades 6-10, although I've taught every subject in my teaching years. I do enjoy history and literature--and I had fun in one school where I combined the two. It was really a cool experience and the kids enjoyed it.

I believe that our public schools are beyond repair. They are nothing more than a government run entity which spreads a marxist-commie-atheistic ideology to innocent and impressionable children. I am totally against BO's invention of "Common Core" curriculum which will be in force very soon. I believe the only hope in pubilc schools right now is to dismantle them completely--including the NEA, teacher unions & federations, the entire NEA lobby, school boards, and curriculum "developers". I think the only way we're going to get our children back on track is for all schools to be run either by a business entity or a Church. All other schools should be outlawed. In addition, I would do away with almost all departments of education in colleges and universities. I would replace these with training teachers in the classical (Socratic) method of teaching. All teachers need to be classically trained and held responsible for student success and mastery of academic goals. Any teacher who does not meet those requirements should be fired and not allowed to ever teach again.

So...pretty radical, eh? Any thoughts?

[Silvertusk]

Ouch.........

That is quite radical. I think it is a little different over here. Our school system is not great but not beyond repair. Our government here does interfere without real experience of what is good teaching. Our current minister - Michael Gove does not really have a clue and is causing a lot of problems.

I think having all schools run by the church as a negative thing. I think if you force a doctrine on a child without giving them ample opportunity to think for themselves - then I think some serious damage can be done. Faith I believe can be much stronger if discovered by their own research and will.

Having said that - there are some wonderfully run church schools in this country where the ethos does seem to be better.

Oh and I am Head of ICT and Computing at a Grammar school in England.

Silvertusk.

[Jac3510]

I believe that our public schools are beyond repair. They are nothing more than a government run entity which spreads a marxist-commie-atheistic ideology to innocent and impressionable children. I am totally against BO's invention of "Common Core" curriculum which will be in force very soon. I believe the only hope in pubilc schools right now is to dismantle them completely--including the NEA, teacher unions & federations, the entire NEA lobby, school boards, and curriculum "developers". I think the only way we're going to get our children back on track is for all schools to be run either by a business entity or a Church. All other schools should be outlawed. In addition, I would do away with almost all departments of education in colleges and universities. I would replace these with training teachers in the classical (Socratic) method of teaching. All teachers need to be classically trained and held responsible for student success and mastery of academic goals. Any teacher who does not meet those requirements should be fired and not allowed to ever teach again.

So...pretty radical, eh? Any thoughts?

Or not radical enough!

I'm homeschooling my children (well, actually, my wife is. She just quit her job so that she could). You could not pay me enough money to put my children through the child-abuse that is government run education. I also think that applies to government funded state schools. People have totally missed the boat on education all the way around.

I have no problem with STATES (not the federal government) helping people pay for school who cannot afford it. I just don't think that governments ought to be RUNNING the schools. I understand that a lot of people can't home school their children (although I think we should be giving significant tax credits to encourage just that). Regardless, small business, churches, and parents ought to be responsible for educating children, not faceless bureaucrats. Let those businesses and churches compete for kids, and the costs will go down. If there is any primary cause for the rise of secularism in this country (with the attending rise in moral laxity and rise in all sorts of crime), it's our government run education. I actually think the churches are complicit in that by not taking a much firmer stand on this issue that we have been. I mean, really think about it a second. The church is the body of Christ. It is the primary means by which we grow in Christ and become His disciples. It's Christ's own primary means of spreading the gospel. And who, more than anyone, needs to hear the gospel, grow in Him, and become His disciples, if not our own children? How, then, can we justify taking out children out of God-fearing churches and sending them off to secular, God-hating, Jesus-loathing secular institutions where they can be indoctrinated with the filth they get each and every day? It's just unconscionable.

And regarding college -- the vast majority of people don't need it, and it is actually harming our entire society to require it. What MOST people need is a good HS education followed by a few years of trade school to learn a specific skillset. If they were to do that, they would find that they would make a LOT more money, could start working earlier, our efficiency and productivity as a whole (speaking of the country) would increase, poverty would decrease, and family's would become stronger. But when you tell someone that before they can get a job as an office secretary making $40,000/yr they have to attend a four year accredited university and rack up anywhere from $30,000 to $100,000 in debt, you're destroying the entire foundation of society. Those "kids" don't even start college until they are 18 or 19; they don't finish until their early 20s (21-23). And these days, because everyone is required to have a BA or BS to even get an entry level job, you really have to get an MA of some sort (or MBA) to make a real income, which means that you rack up even more debt and you don't really get to start your career until your mid to late 20s.

There is a reason that the average age of marriage is being pushed up to near 30! And that means our population is getting older; less children are born, and those who are born, more are born out of wedlock. The truly poor suffer the most in all of this, because they really can't afford or get into college, much less a master's program; so while people with master's degrees are fighting for entry level jobs, people with bachelor's degrees are taking what were once low-skilled jobs held by the undereducated. Now, people with only HS diplomas can't get jobs, and if you don't even have THAT? Forget about it! You've just been sentenced to a life of crime. I'm about as far from liberal as you can get on any subject, but I will say this: any society that is intrinsically set up against its poorest and most vulnerable is unjust, and now unjust society can long survive, much less thrive.

The solution to all of this? Like you said: kill all government run education. Leave it to churches, businesses, and private individuals. Push trade schools (which ought to be working closely with existing businesses) rather than secular four year programs, and ensure in all of that, that people primarily learn how to THINK. You do all of that, then we will start producing young people capable of reasoning well who will have better social skills, who will be more respectful of others and authority in general (though who will be critical at the same time), who can make more money at a younger age, and who don't need to come from middle class homes to guarantee a good lives for themselves. In short, you'll have a better society.

[/rant]

[1over137]

May I change the name of the topic to "Christian vs. public school education"?

[PeteSinCA]

Jac (and Mrs. Jac), go for it! Be sure to look for local homeschooling support groups, and also check out homeschoolchristian.com. The amount of curricular and educational materials "out there" can be bewildering! You'll find experienced folks in support groups and at HSC that will help you sort things out. And make the most of your freedom! Don't be excessively tied to traditional school hours and the school year.

If it isn't obvious, we homeschooled our munchkins K-12. Academic concerns were our first concern, though that was the mid-80s. Things have gotten worse in PSs in the past 3 decades, and not just academically. Family and morals were concerns/interests for us, but if we were just starting they might now be our primary concerns.

[ClassicalTeacher]

Ouch.........

That is quite radical. I think it is a little different over here. Our school system is not great but not beyond repair. Our government here does interfere without real experience of what is good teaching. Our current minister - Michael Gove does not really have a clue and is causing a lot of problems.

I think having all schools run by the church as a negative thing. I think if you force a doctrine on a child without giving them ample opportunity to think for themselves - then I think some serious damage can be done. Faith I believe can be much stronger if discovered by their own research and will.

Having said that - there are some wonderfully run church schools in this country where the ethos does seem to be better.

Oh and I am Head of ICT and Computing at a Grammar school in England.

Silvertusk.

Thanks for the info, Silvertusk! I am half-English--my mom was 100% Italian and my dad was 100% English. He was the 2nd generation English-American. I have always dreamed of going to England, but so far have not been able to do so. My dad's family was from Yorkshire, I believe. My dad told me once that there was a rumor that one of his ancestors was a duke of some kind. His comment was: "He probably was a fallen duke..." My brother-in-law is British from South End on the Sea. He has lived here since his early 20's and is now in his late 50's. Great guy, by the way.

I am aware that American schools are different from those in the U.K. The term "grammar" school is even different, I believe. I'm very jealous, btw! I would give anything to go to England. *Sigh*

Yes, I know my views are radical, but the public school problems in this country have gone beyond repair. There have been numerous stories in the papers lately about kindergarten children being suspended from school because one chewed a Pop Tart in the shape of a gun, a little girl brought a bubble-shooting gun-like thing to school, one little deaf boy's sign for his name was like a hand shaped like a gun and the school wanted his parents to change his name....yes...you heard it. There are so many other ridiculous stories that I'm sure you would think I'm making this stuff up, but sadly, it is all too real.

I understand the objections about a Church-run school, however, there are plenty of private schools here in the U.S. but not with any kind of religious-affiliation. They are thriving and the kids are doing so much better academically and socially in these schools. Something has to be done here because the public schools are turning our children into little zombies. I'll try to provide you with some examples when I have a little more time.

BTW, I love Marmite and drippin'! I make a mean bubble n' squeak, as well as toads in the hole! I've been trying to find a decent British company here in the U.S. where I can get decent frozen bangers and other British groceries, but so far I've not had any luck.

Thanks again!

[ClassicalTeacher]

I believe that our public schools are beyond repair. They are nothing more than a government run entity which spreads a marxist-commie-atheistic ideology to innocent and impressionable children. I am totally against BO's invention of "Common Core" curriculum which will be in force very soon. I believe the only hope in pubilc schools right now is to dismantle them completely--including the NEA, teacher unions & federations, the entire NEA lobby, school boards, and curriculum "developers". I think the only way we're going to get our children back on track is for all schools to be run either by a business entity or a Church. All other schools should be outlawed. In addition, I would do away with almost all departments of education in colleges and universities. I would replace these with training teachers in the classical (Socratic) method of teaching. All teachers need to be classically trained and held responsible for student success and mastery of academic goals. Any teacher who does not meet those requirements should be fired and not allowed to ever teach again.

So...pretty radical, eh? Any thoughts?

Or not radical enough!

I'm homeschooling my children (well, actually, my wife is. She just quit her job so that she could). You could not pay me enough money to put my children through the child-abuse that is government run education. I also think that applies to government funded state schools. People have totally missed the boat on education all the way around.

I have no problem with STATES (not the federal government) helping people pay for school who cannot afford it. I just don't think that governments ought to be RUNNING the schools. I understand that a lot of people can't home school their children (although I think we should be giving significant tax credits to encourage just that). Regardless, small business, churches, and parents ought to be responsible for educating children, not faceless bureaucrats. Let those businesses and churches compete for kids, and the costs will go down. If there is any primary cause for the rise of secularism in this country (with the attending rise in moral laxity and rise in all sorts of crime), it's our government run education. I actually think the churches are complicit in that by not taking a much firmer stand on this issue that we have been. I mean, really think about it a second. The church is the body of Christ. It is the primary means by which we grow in Christ and become His disciples. It's Christ's own primary means of spreading the gospel. And who, more than anyone, needs to hear the gospel, grow in Him, and become His disciples, if not our own children? How, then, can we justify taking out children out of God-fearing churches and sending them off to secular, God-hating, Jesus-loathing secular institutions where they can be indoctrinated with the filth they get each and every day? It's just unconscionable.

And regarding college -- the vast majority of people don't need it, and it is actually harming our entire society to require it. What MOST people need is a good HS education followed by a few years of trade school to learn a specific skillset. If they were to do that, they would find that they would make a LOT more money, could start working earlier, our efficiency and productivity as a whole (speaking of the country) would increase, poverty would decrease, and family's would become stronger. But when you tell someone that before they can get a job as an office secretary making $40,000/yr they have to attend a four year accredited university and rack up anywhere from $30,000 to $100,000 in debt, you're destroying the entire foundation of society. Those "kids" don't even start college until they are 18 or 19; they don't finish until their early 20s (21-23). And these days, because everyone is required to have a BA or BS to even get an entry level job, you really have to get an MA of some sort (or MBA) to make a real income, which means that you rack up even more debt and you don't really get to start your career until your mid to late 20s.

There is a reason that the average age of marriage is being pushed up to near 30! And that means our population is getting older; less children are born, and those who are born, more are born out of wedlock. The truly poor suffer the most in all of this, because they really can't afford or get into college, much less a master's program; so while people with master's degrees are fighting for entry level jobs, people with bachelor's degrees are taking what were once low-skilled jobs held by the undereducated. Now, people with only HS diplomas can't get jobs, and if you don't even have THAT? Forget about it! You've just been sentenced to a life of crime. I'm about as far from liberal as you can get on any subject, but I will say this: any society that is intrinsically set up against its poorest and most vulnerable is unjust, and now unjust society can long survive, much less thrive.

The solution to all of this? Like you said: kill all government run education. Leave it to churches, businesses, and private individuals. Push trade schools (which ought to be working closely with existing businesses) rather than secular four year programs, and ensure in all of that, that people primarily learn how to THINK. You do all of that, then we will start producing young people capable of reasoning well who will have better social skills, who will be more respectful of others and authority in general (though who will be critical at the same time), who can make more money at a younger age, and who don't need to come from middle class homes to guarantee a good lives for themselves. In short, you'll have a better society.

[/rant]

Wow....you said it all! I agree 100%! I don't know if you're familiar with a black lady named Marva Collins, but she is one of my "heroes". She was a public school teacher back in the 60's in my hometown of Chicago. She taught for about 10 years in some of the poorest black neighborhoods. What she experienced increasingly over these 10 years was continual difficulties with the Chicago Board of Education. Why? Because they told her that she was expecting too much from the children. They told her that her standards were too high. They told her that her students were "un-educatible". After hearing this for so long, she finally made the decision to leave the public school system. She then started her own little school in the basement of her home with her 3 children and a few other neighborhood kids. She not only was harassed by the Chicago public school authorities, but her own neighbors. But, she adamantly defied them. Before long, she had more students and more. Why? Because her students were the very ones the CBE deemed "un-educatible" and they were thriving in her school which had a vigorous classical curriculum. She is a classically trained teacher from way back. Eventually, she opened her own private school in a poor black area of Chicago. Her school refused all state and federal funds operating on tuition, benefactors, and fund-raising. Her students were classically taught subjects that most teachers even in those days had little knowledge. Before long, she had a 2 and 3 year waiting list to get into her school. I believe 98% of all her students graduated and went to the colleges and universities of their choosing. They all thrived not just academically, but socially as well. Many went on to prestigious colleges and ivy league universities. I did an internship with her--and it was the greatest experience of my teaching career. Unfortunately, because of the current economic situation and Mrs. Collins' age, she recently closed her schools (she had 2). Marvelous example of what can happen without government. Her school was not religious.

I agree that colleges are mostly useless. I learned most of what I know today from the all-girls college prep high school I attended. College merely gave me the paper so that I could get a job teaching. Most of what I was taught in college was political nonsense. I graduated with a 4.0 gpa. I managed this because I basically regurgitated everything the professors taught and then let it all go for the trash that it was. I was a good writer, too.

Chicago used to have a number of good trade schools for both boys and girls. Now, they're all gone. I don't know if you are familiar with Dr. Thomas Sowell, an economist professor at Stanford University--marvelous black man, btw. I urge anyone here concerned with public education to read his books and papers on education today. He paints no rosie pictures especially regarding the departments of education in most colleges & universities. A definite indictment on our "education" system here.

Again, brilliant expose on public education, Jac. Thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to more of them!

[ClassicalTeacher]

Jac (and Mrs. Jac), go for it! Be sure to look for local homeschooling support groups, and also check out homeschoolchristian.com. The amount of curricular and educational materials "out there" can be bewildering! You'll find experienced folks in support groups and at HSC that will help you sort things out. And make the most of your freedom! Don't be excessively tied to traditional school hours and the school year.

If it isn't obvious, we homeschooled our munchkins K-12. Academic concerns were our first concern, though that was the mid-80s. Things have gotten worse in PSs in the past 3 decades, and not just academically. Family and morals were concerns/interests for us, but if we were just starting they might now be our primary concerns.

Pete: Great info! It's true that there is so much out there for homeschooling parents. And, there's even lots of stuff out there for secular homeschooling parents, too. There's even a few military homeschooling programs. There really are no excuses today for kids having to be subjected to the evils of the marxist-commie-atheistic public schools. Public schools have long since abandoned the mission of "education" for a more lucrative business of social engineering. Now, we have generations fed on that poison and it's only getting worse.

In any case, Pete, thanks for the thumbs up!

[1over137]

I changed the name of the topic to "Christian vs. public school education"

[neo-x]

I can't really talk about govt. or school system because i really have no detailed idea about that.

But somethings I would like to say on the matter of churches running schools. I think its wishful thinking. Homeschooling is great though. But if you get churches to run education, you will have all sorts of trouble with YEC vs, OEC, PC vs. T.E its a never ending thing. Everyone wants their own agenda, churches won't be any different. One thing that I think is common, that as CT said according to her evolution is false, her school won't be teaching it or teaching it with obvious bias. And all of biology basically kind of uses it...so definitely a problem, isn't it?

[Danieltwotwenty]

Neo what's with the avatar, I thought you were Kurieuo for a second.

[neo-x]

Neo what's with the avatar, I thought you were Kurieuo for a second.

Its only temporary, i'm searching for a new one.