Evidence for God from Science

First thing that came to my mind when I read this verse was immediately "free thinkers"( those who think they think freely while having their thoughts governed by the all mighty Dawkins)

"They Promise freedom, while they themselves are slaves~for people are slaves to whatever has mastered them."
2 Peter 2:19

Nice verse, got me thinking

Daniel

Free thinkers....one wonders what that even means nowadays.
I have noticed that those so quickly to disbeleive in God and Christ, even to the pointo fsaying there is no evidence for Christ even ever having existed, will quite openly admit they believe in "paralell universes", and intelligent life on other planets, even though there is ZERO evidence, much less proof, of those things existing.
I think free thinkers means free to think whatever they want based on whatever criteria they choose.

PaulSacramento wrote:Free thinkers....one wonders what that even means nowadays.
I have noticed that those so quickly to disbeleive in God and Christ, even to the pointo fsaying there is no evidence for Christ even ever having existed, will quite openly admit they believe in "paralell universes", and intelligent life on other planets, even though there is ZERO evidence, much less proof, of those things existing.
I think free thinkers means free to think whatever they want based on whatever criteria they choose.

Evidence Reason Testability Predictability
This is their ideal criteria for truth. Multi universe is really outside this criteria. But then again it is not like they say it is fact. All it does tell is what bias they have for answering the questions of life.
But this criteria I think does block internal intuition. It also breeds intrllectual pride and idolatry (worship of science).

We got bias, too. But we respect intuitive faith and humility. Does this breed ignorance? Questions questions questions. Maybe through our humility we can see purpose for what it really is and not pay attention to small details. then we get called ignorant and superstitious for being too ambiguous on the details. Details like can Genesis be justified sounding like a myth; why does God order death through violence in Canaan (I think it is too kill two birds with one stone: Punish Canaanites and make a strong self defending nation of Isreal.); why do the OT laws sound too arbitrary or irrational for it to be inspired by God; why does God call on prophets in the OT times more than in the present day; what is the consequence of the differing doctrines of the denominations; why do so many pastors seem like hypocrits on the media; does evolution undermine the purpose of God; and are we to speak in tongues to provide evidence of the holy spirit in us.

Murray wrote:First thing that came to my mind when I read this verse was immediately "free thinkers"( those who think they think freely while having their thoughts governed by the all mighty Dawkins)

"They Promise freedom, while they themselves are slaves~for people are slaves to whatever has mastered them."
2 Peter 2:19

"Free thinkers", "critical thinkers" "rational thinkers", its all being so over-used it's becoming a cliche

You can be a free thinker as well as a Christian, it's when you assume your intelligence to be so far above that of everyone else where it becomes a problem. Then you start getting the all too characteristic arrogance of atheists.

The basic ideas of free thought aren't inherently bad.

Echo, I'm talking about the militant atheist that call themselves "free thinkers". I'd say most intelligent Christians are free thinkers, especially the Christians in the reformation, they are the definition of free thought in my mind.

Murray wrote:Echo, I'm talking about the militant atheist that call themselves "free thinkers". I'd say most intelligent Christians are free thinkers, especially the Christians in the reformation, they are the definition of free thought in my mind.

I know, but I'd like to dispel any possible negative connotations as a person who identifies themselves as a free thinker does not necessarily fit the seemingly majority.

God tells us "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'. Using the mind requires thinking, last time I checked.

I always have to wonder what the atheist "free thinkers" are free from? They claim that they are free from any preconceived ideas, but that illusion shatters pretty quickly once you ask them to justify it. They can only appeal to quantum theory as a possible mechanism if they really want to stay true to that, but it requires some serious contortions to go from there to coherent thoughts. In addition, if they argue for indeterminism as a mechanism for free thought, then why should anyone care, because their thoughts are then completely arbitrary and essentially meaningless because of it.

They think they are free "from the evil indoctrinating tentacles of the all powerful money hungry corrupt church corporation".

Really, they are so deluded that they fail to see that they are puppets for Dawkins and others who seek to forward their own agendas.

Also they are slaves to their own desires, they put up no struggle to it, they let in consume they without a fight.

Echoside wrote:You can be a free thinker as well as a Christian, it's when you assume your intelligence to be so far above that of everyone else where it becomes a problem. Then you start getting the all too characteristic arrogance of atheists.

The basic ideas of free thought aren't inherently bad.

Echo, my respect for you as an intellectual is steadily increasing It is refreshing to see someone from the belief system you hold recognize this. I can't tell you how many times my own husband has said it's "impossible" to be a free thinker and a Christian at the same time, that the two are diametrically opposed.

My hat is off to you, good sir, for not letting the masses sway you.

StMonicaGuideMe wrote:

Echoside wrote:You can be a free thinker as well as a Christian, it's when you assume your intelligence to be so far above that of everyone else where it becomes a problem. Then you start getting the all too characteristic arrogance of atheists.

The basic ideas of free thought aren't inherently bad.

Echo, my respect for you as an intellectual is steadily increasing It is refreshing to see someone from the belief system you hold recognize this. I can't tell you how many times my own husband has said it's "impossible" to be a free thinker and a Christian at the same time, that the two are diametrically opposed.

My hat is off to you, good sir, for not letting the masses sway you.

I have got repect for everything here.

August wrote:God tells us "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'. Using the mind requires thinking, last time I checked.

Eh. I agree that use of the mind typically involves thinking, but not when your mind is simply being used to funnel one source of information and block out all the rest. Both sides of the issue have lots of people doing this, and I hardly consider them to be "free thinkers."

Murray wrote:They think they are free "from the evil indoctrinating tentacles of the all powerful money hungry corrupt church corporation".

Really, they are so deluded that they fail to see that they are puppets for Dawkins and others who seek to forward their own agendas.

Also they are slaves to their own desires, they put up no struggle to it, they let in consume they without a fight.

You want to call all atheists puppets to Richard Dawkins? Yeah, I'll agree that he has some questionable tactics, but at least I can respect his honesty and willingness to address all the issues he argues about. Frankly, I think there really ARE lots and lots of people stuck under the power and influence of a ridiculously corrupt church system. Christianity and religion in general isn't the problem, it's the people in charge of these religions who wind up pushing their agendas that have nothing to do with religion. everything you say about Dawkins and Atheists can be just as easily applied to Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.

And for the record, I do find that not adhering to what someone else tells me to believe is both enlightening and freeing. I may not be an atheist or a christian (it's complicated and not "mainstream", per say), but I think that it takes far more thought and mental power to determine what you really believe, as opposed to taking the first thing someone tells you as a child and never questioning it. I appreciate Christians who legitimately have thought and are willing to discuss their faith as opposed to putting others down instead. I equally respect the raised-christian-turned-atheist.

Ivellious wrote:

August wrote:God tells us "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'. Using the mind requires thinking, last time I checked.

Eh. I agree that use of the mind typically involves thinking, but not when your mind is simply being used to funnel one source of information and block out all the rest. Both sides of the issue have lots of people doing this, and I hardly consider them to be "free thinkers."

Murray wrote:They think they are free "from the evil indoctrinating tentacles of the all powerful money hungry corrupt church corporation".

Really, they are so deluded that they fail to see that they are puppets for Dawkins and others who seek to forward their own agendas.

Also they are slaves to their own desires, they put up no struggle to it, they let in consume they without a fight.

You want to call all atheists puppets to Richard Dawkins? Yeah, I'll agree that he has some questionable tactics, but at least I can respect his honesty and willingness to address all the issues he argues about. Frankly, I think there really ARE lots and lots of people stuck under the power and influence of a ridiculously corrupt church system. Christianity and religion in general isn't the problem, it's the people in charge of these religions who wind up pushing their agendas that have nothing to do with religion. everything you say about Dawkins and Atheists can be just as easily applied to Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.

And for the record, I do find that not adhering to what someone else tells me to believe is both enlightening and freeing. I may not be an atheist or a christian (it's complicated and not "mainstream", per say), but I think that it takes far more thought and mental power to determine what you really believe, as opposed to taking the first thing someone tells you as a child and never questioning it. I appreciate Christians who legitimately have thought and are willing to discuss their faith as opposed to putting others down instead. I equally respect the raised-christian-turned-atheist.

Good points. I see 2 elements in your last paragraph and in your words: not adhering to what someone else tell you to believe as enlightenment and thinking(with stong mental power) on your own as enlightenment. The first one depends really on how much you trust a person to be right and it might turn out to be downright immature to just not be mainstream for the sake of not being mainstream. The second one is perfect. Although these have good truth in them I think it be wise to not forget an authentic honor for our goals of intellect (Disscusions work better than debates). For example we should not lose faith in God because an authority figure like it makes us feel threatened and we should not believe In God simply because he makes us feel less guilty and then with either case forming arguments with these biases. And If we make ourselves think critically more for the benefit of intellectual dominance than the actual seeking of truth( And they do usually conflict) than we lose the purpose (because in my worldview Seeking truth equals seeking God). Just because something might feel freeing it does not make a stream of thought enlightening. It may very well have immature overtones. This is why respect and love(for all entities involved in the thinking) must be taken to heart to be included with enlightenment. I hope you agree man.

You want to call all atheists puppets to Richard Dawkins?

I think Murray was talking about a specific group and was not a generalised statement.


Dan