evolution?

Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
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Jenks703
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evolution?

Post by Jenks703 »

I'm wondering if the article below would be good for someone who doesn't know God and is wrestling w/ the evolution question or maybe this could be for someone who is a new to Faith. Please read w/ an open mind and give some feedback. Thanks!!

I'm acutely aware that Darwin believed in God. I, like him, believe the same. I have been enthralled in the ongoing debate between scientists themselves including paleontologist, archeologist and anthropologists, Christian scientists, hard line Christians, school districts and their tumult of what to teach: creationism or evolution, and normal everyday Joe's that don't know what to think.

I've done some research including the Alec Baldwinn special on evolution from Lucy the Australopithecus afarensis to the latest discovery in April of this year of the Australopithecus sediba (another link in the primate hominid chain) http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12286206/. I've read countless articles on fossil findings and the "human evolutionary tree". I also read articles of Christian Scientists and their beliefs (http://creationworldview.org/articles_view.asp?id=89).

I can tell you this and if you read or research yourself, you too, may come to the same conclusion. It’s no secret see. In a weird way, all sides of the argument agree in a unique fashion. Every single view in this debate is after the same solution. And that solution is the answer to the question: HOW??

If you take the argument for evolution, these aforementioned sects of scientific studies are arguing the fact that there are many different species of primates that share the same features and characteristics. The earliest species known, like Lucy, are the beginning for them. Then they have discovered many other species that showed up at the end of the previous’ existence that are newer and "more improved" in their eyes. By saying this, I mean that they believe the finding of thumb-like structures showing up in the hand’s of newer species and pelvises that support walking upright support the notion that this species has evolved into a furthered version. This, along with bigger brain vaults and refined teeth, would allow for different food consumption such as protein thus permitting the animal to eat the meat of another and develop bigger and better brains as a result. The scientists have found all of these species and they are all similar and seem to be "evolving" in a timeline. However, they cannot directly link one to the other. They know that they are the same type of primate vertebrate, but cannot say for sure that one produced the other. And how can they??? THAT is the question everyone wants to know!! They theorize through evolution that the species before began to die off as a result of not being able to survive or improve and through natural selection, a newer, more improved species was erected from the dying in order to maintain continuity of the primate "homo" family. This is where you get our "family tree of evolution". They assert that since we are of the same class and the latest, most "evolved" species, we had to have come from them. They believe we changed into our current status as homo sapiens now through the learned failures of nature to be able to survive as we do today. It's a fine and plausible explanation. However, they cannot bridge the gaps of years and biological development. They openly admit this. This is why the Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory. Even the latest discovery in April of this year of the Australopithecus Sediba predates other homo genus creatures known to have lived after this type such as the current Chimpanzees which are known to be the closest relatives of humans to date (http://tobyspeople.com/anthropik/2006/0 ... -relative/). But the latest editions of this Homo genus sector still doesn't bridge directly to humans. (William Berg) http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/201 ... umans.html. And let’s face it; we are of the same family as these prehistoric creatures. We are. It’s a fact. BUT, we are not them. The same way a horse is not a zebra, an ox is not a cow, and a cardinal is not a blue jay. All are of the same family: equestrian, bovine, and fowl, but none are the same animal. There are even pre-historic animals from the Mesozoic Era called pachyderms that are the earliest existence of hoofed animals making them related to horses, but look nothing like them. Put it this way, rhinos and elephants are classified as pachyderms and they look nothing like a horse!!

So, where do the Christian Scientists fit in? They really don't differ too much. The scientists I just told you about have a belief. And that belief is "Evolution". The Christians are the same way! They have a belief and it’s called Creationism. They simply believe an intelligent design was at work i.e., God. He did it. He put these animals here. The question on everybody's mind again is HOW?? These people don't know exactly how, but they have something called faith or blind faith. They believe it because they believe in God, the intelligent creator of all things. And you want to know something funny? Some of the scientists that believe in evolution have the same belief as the Christians. Their only difference is they think they have an idea of how God did it and it’s called....yup, you guessed it- Evolution. Either way you slice it, God did it. Scientists believe He did it through Evolution and Christians have their proof in the Bible’s Creation Story (Genesis). And it’s an ongoing, enraging debate to figure it out. It beacons at the inquisitive mind the same way it tries to figure out how Noah got all those man eating animals, as well as the teeny-tiny insects on board that giant ship known as the Arc.

So what happened then? Did God just let one race become extinct and spontaneously place a male and female of the new species out in the plains and let them procreate? Who knows? I mean, look at it this way, we know that a comet/giant asteroid hit the earth and wiped out the dinosaurs. That's undisputed nowadays. But, if they all died as most all other things did, then where did the new land based animals come from?? I truly believe that God put life back in motion. The ever present question is HOW? Something had to have started it over.

One theory scientist and astrologists have on how life evolved and how the Universe began is that there was a massive explosion known as the Big Bang Theory. Ok, fine. But who and what caused the Big Bang? Ummm...God maybe?? I think so.

Now let’s tie that into evolution. If the Universe came to be and there are many galaxies in it that support various conditions from gas planets to dead planets to Earth typed planets, then how did life appear or start? The same astrologists and some biologists believe that all the trillions upon trillions of possible combinations of elements finally happened to collide at the right time and place to spark life ("Through The Wormhole With Morgan Freeman" Discovery Science Channel Series). Man, that's a pretty rare event! But there are billions of galaxies, so it has to have happened again, right? Maybe. That's a whole another topic for a later time, but here's my point tied in to extinction and new life. Could it be that the same perfect combination reunited and re-sparked life in a slightly different way after the dinosaurs were wiped out and this is what made life reoccur on Earth?? Maybe, but how so? Again, we hit the old
"How wall". And again, my answer is a combination of all sides and opinions of the game: God.

So, in closing, I think that we do evolve into better things. This has been going on since the beginning of time just as sure as you will be born, breathe, live and die. It's a natural order to an intelligent design created by the Creator of Creators, God the Father. We don't know how one species sprang up from another. All we know is that it did. Whether you believe God let the natural order of things go from a crawl to a walk i.e. Lucy the Australopithecus afarensis, to you, John Smith, the Homo Sapien or the Book of Genesis, God still did it period. I mean look at Earth's history of itself as a whole geologically and compare it with human life history. Just as the earth shifted on its axis to create seasons and the continents divided to create new worlds, we as humans learned, we adapted, we became tool makers from stone, to hunters, to tribes, to cities, to nations and here we are with profoundly greater capabilities than our earliest ancestors, the Cro-Magnon man or Homo sapien sapien (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon). We no longer grunt and chase large animals with spears. We now fire rockets into space and use computers to run global businesses.

It's just designed that way. We'll probably never figure it all out, but hey, the Bible tells us that we will not be able to understand Heavenly things here in our human minds with our human brains. AND that my friend is the beauty of it all! Right now you are waiting on the final and most glorious step of evolution: The return to your true origin; the place that you were made which is at the side and in the home of your Heavenly Father, God.

So, when you sit down to dinner with Him at the Table of Divinity, I propose that you ask Him for yourself, HOW?

:amen:
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Re: evolution?

Post by zoegirl »

The theory of evolution does not demand "better" things, merely the one that fits. Evolution as a process rewards reproductive fitness...but it has no goals towards being better.
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Re: evolution?

Post by Jenks703 »

Clearly the animal adapts for finess, but isn't that "bettering" it? If the brain becomes larger and additionaly adaptations are formed, then one gains cognitive ability and is able to use more resources, food, protection, etc. In a way, Evolution is the act of bettering or maybe you prefer to use the word, "advancing". I don't see how you can say that the moths that were once white in London before its industrial revolution, began to turn gray over a small period of time to "better" their chance of survival and protecting themselves by blending into the environment. This aided them in hiding from preditors.
It's a word choice. Not really the point of that article at all though.
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Re: evolution?

Post by cslewislover »

Jenks703 wrote:Clearly the animal adapts for finess, but isn't that "bettering" it? If the brain becomes larger and additionaly adaptations are formed, then one gains cognitive ability and is able to use more resources, food, protection, etc. In a way, Evolution is the act of bettering or maybe you prefer to use the word, "advancing". I don't see how you can say that the moths that were once white in London before its industrial revolution, began to turn gray over a small period of time to "better" their chance of survival and protecting themselves by blending into the environment. This aided them in hiding from preditors.
It's a word choice. Not really the point of that article at all though.
It's only better for that particular time and place. A lot of animals are now extinct that, supposedly through evolution, advanced to a certain level. Like dinosaurs and the mega-fauna. What is better for one time and place is not better for another. Like CS Lewis said, the idea of progress in evolution is a myth. Progress is a human idea. This is why I can't believe evolutionary theory in the way that atheists do, that we're here by chance. Aspects of evolution are true and we can know them, but the pure variety of life (within an organism, of organisms, and of interdependence), and the level of advancement of humans, cannot be from chance alone. God is in it, and I think that us humans are a blatant example of God's workmanship. To say that "evolution" baked us up and that is an example of progress in nature, to me is simply false. Of course, evolution and all its ramifications could take a lot of discussion, as maybe you've seen on other threads!

You say it's not the point of the article, but it has logical and significant ramifications for how you view the whole theory.
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Jenks703
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Re: evolution?

Post by Jenks703 »

I totally agree with you that God is in it. Totally. I don't think that we evolved from an ape. I do think certain primates today had other animal ancestors in the past, just as Cromagnon man and Neanderthals were ancestorial humans. God placed us/them all here. Were Adam and Eve of that sect of humans? The predecessors, Cromagnon, could have been just before Adam and Eve. God has started over before. Is this where they came in? I'm not arguing w/ you at all. I would like to know your view point on that.
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Re: evolution?

Post by cslewislover »

Jenks703 wrote:I totally agree with you that God is in it. Totally. I don't think that we evolved from an ape. I do think certain primates today had other animal ancestors in the past, just as Cromagnon man and Neanderthals were ancestorial humans. God placed us/them all here. Were Adam and Eve of that sect of humans? The predecessors, Cromagnon, could have been just before Adam and Eve. God has started over before. Is this where they came in? I'm not arguing w/ you at all. I would like to know your view point on that.
I need to review some of that stuff (on "early man"), which would be good to do. So I'll post more in a bit. (If I remember right, a lot of old earth creationists consider them other sophisticated animals and not predecessors to humans, except for the one that was in Europe - Cromagnon?)
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Re: evolution?

Post by Jenks703 »

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly where, but Cromagnon are the closest thing to us that they have found. Most scientists beleive this to be our direct descendants.
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Re: evolution?

Post by cslewislover »

Well, the species I'm thinking of, I remember an article talking about how they think they were basically human and assimilated into the regular human population. There is so much variation within humans, that this seems very likely. I mean, you can find humans today, I believe, that have at least as much variation (like Pygmys vs Norwegians).


OK, I just looked them up. Since Cro-magnons are Homo Sapiens, maybe I was reading about Neanderthals. I'll be back after I look into that. Anyway, Cro-magnons were modern humans. They shouldn't have a different name, lol.


Yes, it was Neanderthals I was thinking of. Here are two articles from just a few months ago about this - that humans and Neanderthals interbred.

Neanderthal genome reveals interbreeding with humans

Signs of Neanderthals Mating With Humans
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Re: evolution?

Post by CeT-To »

sorry to butt in the convo but if i may ask a question.. Why were dinasaurs created?
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Re: evolution?

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Lol, you're not butting in. I thought I was kind-of talking to myself this afternoon. I don't know why dinosaurs were created. Maybe God liked to feel the earth shake every time one of the big ones walked around. Maybe He wanted us to have oil . . . "Consider plastic . . . ," He perhaps mused. Lol. I'm pretty bored, waiting for something.
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Re: evolution?

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cslewislover wrote:Lol, you're not butting in. I thought I was kind-of talking to myself this afternoon. I don't know why dinosaurs were created. Maybe God liked to feel the earth shake every time one of the big ones walked around. Maybe He wanted us to have oil . . . "Consider plastic . . . ," He perhaps mused. Lol. I'm pretty bored, waiting for something.
:lol: LOL you're a funny one hahahh but yeah im asking because there has to be an answer, i mean God doesnt just do things randomly. 8-}2
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Re: evolution?

Post by cslewislover »

CeT-To wrote:
cslewislover wrote:Lol, you're not butting in. I thought I was kind-of talking to myself this afternoon. I don't know why dinosaurs were created. Maybe God liked to feel the earth shake every time one of the big ones walked around. Maybe He wanted us to have oil . . . "Consider plastic . . . ," He perhaps mused. Lol. I'm pretty bored, waiting for something.
:lol: LOL you're a funny one hahahh but yeah im asking because there has to be an answer, i mean God doesnt just do things randomly. 8-}2
He wanted to delight me with Hello Kitty plastic products.
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Re: evolution?

Post by Gabrielman »

cslewislover wrote:
CeT-To wrote:
cslewislover wrote:Lol, you're not butting in. I thought I was kind-of talking to myself this afternoon. I don't know why dinosaurs were created. Maybe God liked to feel the earth shake every time one of the big ones walked around. Maybe He wanted us to have oil . . . "Consider plastic . . . ," He perhaps mused. Lol. I'm pretty bored, waiting for something.
:lol: LOL you're a funny one hahahh but yeah im asking because there has to be an answer, i mean God doesnt just do things randomly. 8-}2
He wanted to delight me with Hello Kitty plastic products.
:pound: :pound: nice!!!!

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CeT-To, I have some ideas on that if you want to hear them, though know they are not mainstream. We could pm about them if you want, though I do not necessarily want to put them on the board until they are refined a bit.
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Re: evolution?

Post by CeT-To »

Gabrielman wrote:
cslewislover wrote:
CeT-To wrote:
cslewislover wrote:Lol, you're not butting in. I thought I was kind-of talking to myself this afternoon. I don't know why dinosaurs were created. Maybe God liked to feel the earth shake every time one of the big ones walked around. Maybe He wanted us to have oil . . . "Consider plastic . . . ," He perhaps mused. Lol. I'm pretty bored, waiting for something.
:lol: LOL you're a funny one hahahh but yeah im asking because there has to be an answer, i mean God doesnt just do things randomly. 8-}2
He wanted to delight me with Hello Kitty plastic products.
:pound: :pound: nice!!!!

Image

CeT-To, I have some ideas on that if you want to hear them, though know they are not mainstream. We could pm about them if you want, though I do not necessarily want to put them on the board until they are refined a bit.
HAHAHAH Yes! my fav ...hello kitty :P But yes that would be excellent gabrielman! thaaaank youuu :ebiggrin:
But joy and happiness in you to all who seek you! Let them ceaselessly cry,"Great is Yahweh" who love your saving power. Psalm 40:16

I Praise you Yahweh, my Lord, my God!!!!!
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Re: evolution?

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CeT-To wrote:
HAHAHAH Yes! my fav ...hello kitty :P But yes that would be excellent gabrielman! thaaaank youuu :ebiggrin:
Okay! I will resume later with this, as I am tired right now and my head hurts! But I will be more than happy to pm you about it! :ebiggrin:
Once I was trapped in a perpetual night, without even a star to light the sky. Now I stand in the glory of the Son, and not even a faint shadow of darkness remains.
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