Evidence for God from Science

I am wrestling with the issue of our hope for the future. The name of the subject; Being saved from what? For what? Is a quote from N.T. Wright's book Surprised by Hope. In his book he raises some interesting questions, this being one of them.
If we reframe the answers to these questions, we begin to see the Good News and the Kingdom in a different way.
I would like to see what you all think about this.
Are we being saved from Hell (the firery pit) so that we can go to Heaven and be disembodied spirts, or are we going to inherit the "New Earth" and go back to a garden of eden so to speak.

If this is addressed on another thread then please redirect me, or just let me know what you think.
Thanks

One of Many wrote:I am wrestling with the issue of our hope for the future. The name of the subject; Being saved from what? For what? Is a quote from N.T. Wright's book Surprised by Hope. In his book he raises some interesting questions, this being one of them.
If we reframe the answers to these questions, we begin to see the Good News and the Kingdom in a different way.
I would like to see what you all think about this.
Are we being saved from Hell (the firery pit) so that we can go to Heaven and be disembodied spirts, or are we going to inherit the "New Earth" and go back to a garden of eden so to speak.

If this is addressed on another thread then please redirect me, or just let me know what you think.
Thanks

Not only are we saved from future events such as hell, but we are also saved from our sins today..

Do you really want a free life? Well you can have that today by pulling a 180 and slowly kill off the natural sin man in your life.. Tell me, are you careful what you eat? Like you wouldn't drink from a barrel of oil would you? It's the EXACT same thing in the spiritual world. We have to put on the NEW man in Christ. Romans 12:2 What does that mean? Flee from sin.. What is sin? Anything that is not done in love.. Example: coveting my neighbors things, stealing, pornography, gossip, hatred, materialism, etc..

Again the test here is to TRY it sometime. It can be hard to do, but with God all things are possible Mark 10:27.. Try it sometime and test God. You will have more joy, more fulfillment in your life, more confidence, more meaning in your life... When? Right NOW!!!

Hell is immoral(what can be possibly worth eternal punishments?), oblivion isn't but i would still wanted to be saved from oblivion which somehow is a fate most atheistic people are not really afraid of which is sort of foolish but, its sort of realistic too.

Kristoffer wrote:Hell is immoral(what can be possibly worth eternal punishments?), oblivion isn't but i would still wanted to be saved from oblivion which somehow is a fate most atheistic people are not really afraid of which is sort of foolish but, its sort of realistic too.

Kris, do you believe death in and of itself is immoral? If not, why not?

Thanks Gman! Good stuff. I am a believer, so I have been turning from sin and self. It is an ongoing struggle, as I'm sure you know, but a worthwhile struggle indeed!
My question is more one of what our hope as Christians is. Do we currently have a warped sense of future in Gods new heaven & earth, caused by centuries of tradition and culter? And if we do, then what is our next step?

Kris, I to do not buy into the common belief of hell. I tend to think that the God we worship is a merciful God, and as such would not want to torment his creation. I believe our punishment to be eternal seperation from Him, and his good creation (humans, animals, plants, etc.) if that is what you mean by oblivion, then I agree. I do think we would have knowledge of the fact that we had been judged, and that a punishment is being carried out.
With that being said, there will be literalist who will point to verses in scripture that will give evidence for eternal damnation. I just don't think that fits the picture that is drawn by the whole of the new testament of the God I serve.(thats just my humble opinion).

One of Many wrote:Thanks Gman! Good stuff. I am a believer, so I have been turning from sin and self. It is an ongoing struggle, as I'm sure you know, but a worthwhile struggle indeed!
My question is more one of what our hope as Christians is. Do we currently have a warped sense of future in Gods new heaven & earth, caused by centuries of tradition and culter? And if we do, then what is our next step?

But what do you think, reading the bible yourself, without looking at church tradition and doctrine? You mention that book, but don't give what that person said about it. I have my own views. I look to commentaries and other reference works when I'm not sure of something, or to find out more. If you read a variety then you'll see differences in interpretation. But you can read the bible yourself and see what you think without these things first. Or did you simply want to hear what others thought? Part of the Christian hope is the here and now - to be able to be free of sin and treat others well. Our sin corrupts and spoils and makes things just yucky. Others become discouraged because of our sin, and act badly in return. So part of our hope is to live as God wants us to, to make our world a better place. This will lead others to seek God out, too, which is doing our part in being a servant and establishing His kingdom. A big part of our future hope is to be in a place free of sin and all that yuckiness. I live in a densely populated area, a very big, very densely populated area. You encounter unpleasantness emminating from people everyday when you're out and about. It's very discouraging and depressing. It's truly hard to imagine being somewhere where this is totally not the case. Besides having the hope that I'll be within the amazing love and light of Christ later, I have the hope that I'll be in a sin-free place. Such a peaceful place would bring out our child-like nature, of trust and openness and fun, I believe.

Surely you guys know that heaven is a place where we will sit around on clouds, strumming harps, with halos upon our heads.

Hell is the devil in a red suit, long pointy tail, horns on his head, and carrying a pitch fork, making you listen to Barry Manilow music.

Thanks for the thoughtful response CSLL !! I do want to hear what others think. I have read the Bible, from cover to cover, and continue to read. I have also read many commentaries. One of my favorite Bibles is one that a great friend of mine gave me, an archeology study Bible (NIV). I enjoy the historical context it brings to the word. I also agree with you on the here and now, the Kingdom is now (which is part of what Wright is saying). I didn't want to bring his (Wrights) thoughts to the discussion because I wanted to hear your responses,I know what he thinks. I guess the reason for bringing it up would be that after reading it for myself, I began to see things a little differently than (what could be called) mainstream christianity. Thats not to say, hey look at me, I figured it out and you poor slobs can't/won't!! Thats not it at all !!! I felt like maybe there was something wrong with the way I was seeing it. Try as I might, I couldn't/can't get my mind around some of the church's teachings. They sometimes just don't seem to fit what I read in scripture. The whole heaven and hell, life after death thing is one of the "big three" for me. I would rather not go into the others on this thread; maybe I can post other questions at a later date.
I would just like to thank you CSLL once again . I have read many of your post/responses to people on this board, and you always (even when you disagree with someone) show respect and a loving spirit. I think more of us (myself included) can learn from you in this regard.

Kurieuo wrote:

Kristoffer wrote:Hell is immoral(what can be possibly worth eternal punishments?), oblivion isn't but i would still wanted to be saved from oblivion which somehow is a fate most atheistic people are not really afraid of which is sort of foolish but, its sort of realistic too.

Kris, do you believe death in and of itself is immoral? If not, why not?

Because death is or could be the end. Nothing more so than that. Why fear something that only exists, when you do not exist? Its insensible to fear something that you cannot possibly feel, the only reason to fear death would be if you had not make significant impact on the planet. If Eternal Seperation means Eternal nothingness, if that is the "outer darkness", then it is acceptable to me. That is not immoral torture, that is not the equivelent of locking your child in a basement for until he grows up and then making it your slave!

The THREAT of eternal torment, is nothing more than just that. A threat and anyone who uses it is greatly insulting whoever they use it against, no matter what trivial "sins" they may be guilty of. But, this is just how i feel. If can god feel and feels differently then it would be upto him to explain why, oh why all sins are worth the same to him. Because I certainly see different crimes as ranked in different positions of worthiness of punishment. It is the police that people fear, not god. If there was no police, then there would be anarchy.(this is at least true of a properly secular society despite how much we seem to be naturaly "more" peaceful)

Kristoffer wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kristoffer wrote:Hell is immoral(what can be possibly worth eternal punishments?), oblivion isn't but i would still wanted to be saved from oblivion which somehow is a fate most atheistic people are not really afraid of which is sort of foolish but, its sort of realistic too.

Kris, do you believe death in and of itself is immoral? If not, why not?

Because death is or could be the end. Nothing more so than that. Why fear something that only exists, when you do not exist? Its insensible to fear something that you cannot possibly feel, the only reason to fear death would be if you had not make significant impact on the planet. If Eternal Seperation means Eternal nothingness, if that is the "outer darkness", then it is acceptable to me. That is not immoral torture, that is not the equivelent of locking your child in a basement for until he grows up and then making it your slave!

The THREAT of eternal torment, is nothing more than just that. A threat and anyone who uses it is greatly insulting whoever they use it against, no matter what trivial "sins" they may be guilty of. But, this is just how i feel. If can god feel and feels differently then it would be upto him to explain why, oh why all sins are worth the same to him. Because I certainly see different crimes as ranked in different positions of worthiness of punishment. It is the police that people fear, not god. If there was no police, then there would be anarchy.(this is at least true of a properly secular society despite how much we seem to be naturaly "more" peaceful)

So the only reason to fear death is based solely on the works one does to make make significant impact on the planet? Not sure I understand what you mean here...
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Well if you live life for each day instead of living life for the forever after you will have a fulfilling and deep life. And if you affect the world in a positive fashion then you have done good haven't you?

Kristoffer wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:

Kristoffer wrote:Hell is immoral(what can be possibly worth eternal punishments?), oblivion isn't but i would still wanted to be saved from oblivion which somehow is a fate most atheistic people are not really afraid of which is sort of foolish but, its sort of realistic too.

Kris, do you believe death in and of itself is immoral? If not, why not?

Because death is or could be the end. Nothing more so than that. Why fear something that only exists, when you do not exist? Its insensible to fear something that you cannot possibly feel, the only reason to fear death would be if you had not make significant impact on the planet. If Eternal Seperation means Eternal nothingness, if that is the "outer darkness", then it is acceptable to me. That is not immoral torture, that is not the equivelent of locking your child in a basement for until he grows up and then making it your slave!

The THREAT of eternal torment, is nothing more than just that. A threat and anyone who uses it is greatly insulting whoever they use it against, no matter what trivial "sins" they may be guilty of. But, this is just how i feel. If can god feel and feels differently then it would be upto him to explain why, oh why all sins are worth the same to him. Because I certainly see different crimes as ranked in different positions of worthiness of punishment. It is the police that people fear, not god. If there was no police, then there would be anarchy.(this is at least true of a properly secular society despite how much we seem to be naturaly "more" peaceful)

I'm not sure my question regarding whether "death" is immoral was directly answered, however I suppose I can deduce you believe death is not immoral because there is nothing to fear if dead.

The response I was expecting was something more along the lines that death itself is just a natural outcome of life. So in and of itself, there is nothing immoral about it. Perhaps you would also agree with this?

Likewise, I believe eternal separation from God for many, is a natural consequence of God's righteous character and who He is. God is unable to mix with those who rebel against Him and who remain in their sin continuing to rebel. Throw into the picture that we believe God is the source of all good, and as such where God is evil is naturally constrained (as light makes darkness flee). So if God entirely withdraws His presence and/or influence from a "world" (light) then that would essentially turn into hell (darkness).

This is what I believe God does to those who remain blemished by sin. If God imposed Himself upon such people they would firstly live utterly terrified and in fear of Him, and secondly God would be divided against His own righteous nature since He would be mixing directly with evil. Thus, God constrains those who are against Him to a place where He withdraws His light from... a place where "outer darkness" reigns... a place where spirits are tormented by their own decisions, bitterness, resentment, hate, jealousy, anger, sadness and the like for the rest of eternity.

Jesus warned people in His day by comparing this spiritual place to Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom (often translated "Hell" in Scripture). Gehenna was known for being a place of much evil throughout history, where amongst other things children were sacrificed. In Jesus' day constant burning of rubbish happened in Gehenna, including the bodies of animals and those executed. Jesus tried warning people that this is the fate of those who continue in their sin and rebellion against God, who do not forgive and do not show compassion and love to others and who do not follow Him. We know however, as Paul points out in his epistle, that all sin and fall short of God's glory. Thus, the only way we can avoid this fate is by sharing in Christ's righteousness who died to atone for our sin and redeem us. In Him we are forgiven and clothed with His righteousness, despite our sin which will one day be no longer possible for us to do. And because of this, we are able to be reunited with God and walk with Him in this life, but more-so live in His presence and kingdom in the hereafter. So we as Christians hope in Christ that we can be truly reunited with God, for if we can't then we all remain in sin and stand condemned.

Sorry to draw it out so much... but hopefully this adds some perspective to "Hell", "Heaven", us and the issue of sin that is at play in relation to who God is. I just hope the time I invested here doesn't get trodden under foot as I've neglected my little one a little and left her watching tv to write this! So that would be disappointing. I better get back to her now.

The THREAT of eternal torment, is nothing more than just that. A threat and anyone who uses it is greatly insulting whoever they use it against, no matter what trivial "sins" they may be guilty of.

That just doesn't hold up under sound reason. Let's say you were in imminent danger. Are you stating that someone warning you of this danger that you are ignorant of is just threatening you and insulting you. If Hell is real, then warning you would be a most appropriate response.

But, this is just how I feel. If can god feel and feels differently then it would be up to him to explain why, oh why all sins are worth the same to him.

I wouldn't blanketly say that all sins are the same. Yes, they are all the same in the fact that they destroy us, His creation, and violate the nature of His character. But that isn't to say that heinous crimes are not viewed differently by God.
God is not some dude waiting to jump out and clobber you with a ball bat. The bible does not explain God this way. It explains His nature, His character and why sin is so utterly sinful to Him. You may not believe it or agree with it, but you can't claim you don't know why. God's standards are not yours. Just because you are not offended at lust, or white lies, does not mean God is not.

Because I certainly see different crimes as ranked in different positions of worthiness of punishment. It is the police that people fear, not god. If there was no police, then there would be anarchy.(this is at least true of a properly secular society despite how much we seem to be naturally "more" peaceful)

The police are the result of mankind's desire for order and justice. Order and justice don't exist because of police. Police exist because order and justice are inherently true.

Hell is not God locking you in His basement. You will never understand Hell because you refuse to understand God as He is revealed in His Word.

the only reason to fear death would be if you had not make significant impact on the planet.

Please explain. This makes no sense to me. If death is the end as you say. Then why does one life have value and another less value. Why does one have something to fear?

jlay wrote: If Hell is real, then warning you would be a most appropriate response.

I suppose so, but that is a very, very big IF. What do you consider the odds are if we were to bet on this? How do you say "you are going to hell for what you have done" without it sounding threatening? (also I would love to hear someone say this to my face and see what happens)

Anyway, I think that sure warn people about a possible danger. But be vary gentle and considerate. Take into account that Hell could just mean Oblivion and not eternal torture.(The big question here would be, is not believing in God a crime great enough for this? What if the most righteous person apart from this fact died, would they be deserving of that punishment?) Why just Gift a Reward, rewards should be earned. How is religion not a sport?(you could also ask the opposite question) It just seems competitive and I have quite a bit of "Competiting" already.

First of all Kris, I would never say that. I don't use Hell as some manipulative tactic to scare you or anyone into religion. Many people have done much harm by using such tactics. That does not mean that I would not discuss with someone the reality of Hell, the reason for it, and God's desire that none should perish.
Jesus said, "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." (John 3:18) The following verse shows that this unbelief is not ignorance, but willful. They refused to come into the light. Why? For fear that their evil deeds will be exposed.

There is little doubt in my mind that this is where you are. You are trying to convince us, and yourself that you are a good decent person. When the light shines on you, you start talking about make believe righteous people. This is about you Kris. You are responsible for you. Not for some make believe righteous person that you conjured up in your own mind, to take the focus off of yourself.

Take into account that Hell could just mean Oblivion and not eternal torture.(The big question here would be, is not believing in God a crime great enough for this?

I would say yes. It is not just not believing, but refusing to believe. If someone were in a burning building and refused the fireman coming up the ladder to rescue him through the window, what would you think of such a person?

What if the most righteous person apart from this fact died, would they be deserving of that punishment?

I assure you that no righteous person will go to Hell. Are you righteous Kris?

Why just Gift a Reward, rewards should be earned. How is religion not a sport?(you could also ask the opposite question) It just seems competitive and I have quite a bit of "Competiting" already.

You know Kris, when you start just throwing out random off-topic things, it is really hard to get the answers.

What do you consider the odds are if we were to bet on this?

I've already bet my life. Jesus gave His. Eternity is a long time to be wrong.