Question on forgiveness:

[WConn]

A cherished friend who inspired me to read the bible has a habit of saying, "christians are not perfect, just forgiven." It appears to me that my friend feels that one can knowingly sin, time and
time again, and because my friend is a Christian, my friend is saved and forgiven. I find this
hard to understand. Does God not want us to at least make a good faith effort to not sin to receive salvation?

I thank you for your response.

W

[TradArcher]

Hey WConn, let me attempt to answer this:

First, I do believe that when your friend says "christian are not perfect, just forgiven" he is entirely accurate. Just because someone has received salvation does not mean that they are transformed into perfect beings. But we do become "New Creations" (2Cor 5:17). This has many implications, including a "quickening of the spirit" (1Cor 15:45) With this quickening comes an awareness of sin that was not there before. When you become a follower of Christ you should desire to live according to His commands, which include "dying to the flesh" (Rom 8:5) When the flesh is put to death, it implies putting the ways of the flesh to death, namely: sin. But this will not be a once-and-for-all thing, it is a constant struggle. But, while you will sin, you should not do so freely. You should try and follow God's commands. Paul addresses this in his Epistles. In Romans 6:1 Paul says

"1What shall we say then? Shall we continue to sin, that grace my abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Romans 6 1:4, KJV)

One final point, in your post you say "Does God not want us to at least make a good faith effort to not sin to receive salvation?" When you say "...to receive Salvation? Please understand that there is nothing we can do to "earn" salvation. Salvation is a gift, from God. The only thing we can do is accept that gift.

These are just my thoughts on the subject. I look forward to hearing others' thoughts on this.

[WConn]

TradArcher,

Thank you for your comments.

W

[cslewislover]

Yes, that was good TradArcher. And yes, people don't stop sinning to become good enough for Christ. Once we accept the Lord's gift of salvation, then we receive the Spirit, who helps us to see our sin, repent, and grow. We have a stronger desire, then, to follow and please our Lord, than to satisfy our baser desires. But we still sin sometimes, and when we repent the Lord forgives.

There are some who say they're Christians, but don't act like it (I'm not referring to your friend - I wouldn't know). They seem the same as everyone else. If this is the case, maybe they're not saved, or maybe they just aren't connected to the Spirit or their Lord much. One needs to count the cost, too, in following Christ. I recently read a book where a non-Christian guy was in a dorm of Christians, and his roommates, in particular, did not act virtuously. The roommates said they were Christians because they were raised that way (they were very aware of what Christian morals were as well), but they often acted quite selfishly and purposely broke rules and looked at girls' photos and talked about them like they were a product you might buy at a store. Anyway, this non-Christian guy said that he knew the cost and that if he did decide to follow Christ, that it wasn't to behave like his roommates. He knew, inside of himself, that being a Christian made you different, and it should show.

[WConn]

CSLEWISLOVER, how does god use modern culture to hint at His existence or reveal Himself to seekers?

W

[cslewislover]

^^ Did you look at my profile?

I think there are ways that people do this on purpose, and ways they don't. The Lord of the Rings trilogy is an example of both, I think. Tolkien had gotten letters from people asking him about the spirituality in the book, and saying that they read the bible afterwards as a result. Tolkien believed he was not alone in writing that book, that God helped with it. The first movie of that trilogy I also believe had God in it; that was my own strong personal feeling, and my belief. Guidance from "elsewhere" was left in that movie, as well as our own inner readings of that guidance (I'm talking about Frodo's experience with this, as well as others'). I'm not as sure about the last two movies since I had read the books before they came out and was impressed with how much of the spirituality was taken OUT. I don't know how non-Christians would take them then.

I am finishing up Stephanie Meyers' Twilight series. In those books, Meyers purposely brings up faith issues, which are then a springboard for people to start discussions on these issues. Those issues being morality, faith, the existence of the soul and heaven and hell. I could easily see teens reading these books and wondering what the bible says about these things, if they didn't know already.

[Gabrielman]

It's true what your friend says, Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. We will fall short, we will sin, and we will make mistakes. However Christ is there with us, watching us, guiding us, and when we stumble and fall he will pick us up again. The way I like to think of it is starting again. There is a song by Red that is called start again and in it the singer asks God if they can start over, and if he can be forgiven. This is often the case with me, as I am a sinner. If you are truly sorry for your sins and you accept the gift of God's salvation (Jesus) you can be forgiven and begin anew. Remember that God loves you and so do all of his children.

"If we are the future, then where did we leave our keys?"- Random quote from the oblivion stratagy guide, no I don't get it either... T_T

[nd925]

Great answers everyone. Why do you suppose most people think that you have to earn salvation through works? Is it something that stems from our upbringing? I remember my father saying that "there is no such thing as a free lunch". Perhaps incorrect teaching from a church? I have heard so many people struggle with this issue. I too felt a heaviness about this until my Pastor did a Bible study on it. What freedom I felt after that. While we all strive to be more Christlike none of us are perfect and we all fall short, but its a comfort to know that there is no condemnation in Christ.

[jlay]

I think one reason we see such lukewarm behavior in the church is this, "We WILL sin," attitude. Instead of a we WILL have victory in Christ. If our faith is in our ability, will power, effort, etc, then yes we will most assuredly sin. Will Christians sin? Well regretfully yes. But, should this be our excuse or attitude? Is that the attitude of Christ? No.

The problem with believers today is not whether they have the Holy Spirit, but how much of them does the Holy Spirit have.

[Gabrielman]

I believe that if you truly love Christ with every fiber of your being then you will do good works for him. He calls all of us to work for him and it is, in my opinion, the least we can do for him. I believe it was Paul who wrote that faith without works is dead.

[WConn]

The more I read, the more I study, the more confused and conflicted I become. For some of you this seems to be easy, like learning to fly an airplane which in many cases is a very unnatural thing to do, some get the idea and develop the feel quickly, others more slowly, others none at all.

I realize there is a ton of misinformation out there. Recently I have been watching the Lee Strobel videos, many of which deal with a Christian Theologian going head to head with an Athiest or a Muslim Expert. The bottom line is that someone is wrong but I must admit I was impressed with Dr William Lane Craig? Not sure if I got his name right. Even at that I was less than satisfied with the overall responses from both he and his Atheist opponent but perhaps I missed something.

I think we get caught up in our own ideas and interpretation of things. Can one earn salvation? Is it given? Must it be accepted? These are confusing concepts to one such as myself. Christians too seem to have differing ideas as to this concept, but again, can both sides be right or is there a "degree of right or wrong?" Just because one is registered on this site does not make one an expert or authority. Opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one and some carry more weight than others.

Just my opinion and my rear end is about average I presume.

W

[zoegirl]

The more I read, the more I study, the more confused and conflicted I become. For some of you this seems to be easy, like learning to fly an airplane which in many cases is a very unnatural thing to do, some get the idea and develop the feel quickly, others more slowly, others none at all.

I realize there is a ton of misinformation out there. Recently I have been watching the Lee Strobel videos, many of which deal with a Christian Theologian going head to head with an Athiest or a Muslim Expert. The bottom line is that someone is wrong but I must admit I was impressed with Dr William Lane Craig? Not sure if I got his name right. Even at that I was less than satisfied with the overall responses from both he and his Atheist opponent but perhaps I missed something.

I think we get caught up in our own ideas and interpretation of things. Can one earn salvation? Is it given? Must it be accepted? These are confusing concepts to one such as myself. Christians too seem to have differing ideas as to this concept, but again, can both sides be right or is there a "degree of right or wrong?" Just because one is registered on this site does not make one an expert or authority. Opinions are like rear ends, everyone has one and some carry more weight than others.

Just my opinion and my rear end is about average I presume.

W

Walt,

good questions. One cannot earn salvation, it is a free gift of God. Remember that salvation is a reconciliation with God and this doesn't happen in our sinful state. Christ must redeem us. The natural result of sin is death. Lest this simply be my opinion...take the word from scripture....

Romans 6:23

3For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

We cannot work ourselves out of this state.

Romans 3

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Romans 5

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

So here is our God, a God who loves us so much that His own son dies for us to make us right with Him. That's a god I would serve gladly. Praise Him!

zg

[WConn]

Zoegirl,

Thank you, Sometimes understanding scripture is difficult for us newbies.

Walt

[zoegirl]

let me know if ther eis anything we can do to explain it

[WConn]

let me know if ther eis anything we can do to explain it

Maybe you could weigh in on my question about Day Age Progressive Creationists?

Walt