Dishonest claims about Einstein, Descartes

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MD27
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Dishonest claims about Einstein, Descartes

Post by MD27 »

The claim that Einstein and Descartes believed in God is dishonest (http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... efaith.php). I find it sad that religious people, who argue that their beliefs are a necessary foundation for a moral system, resort to skewing the writings and beliefs of some of the greatest thinkers to ever live.

On Descartes,
He had a deep religious faith as a Roman Catholic, which he retained to his dying day
But let's go to Descartes, shall we? In Principles of Philosophy, he writes,
The nature of body includes divisibility along with extension in space, and since being divisible is an imperfection, it is certain that God is not a body. Again, the fact that we perceive through the senses is for us a perfection of a kind; but all sense-perception involves being acted upon, and to be acted upon is to be dependent on something else. Hence it cannot in any way be supposed that God perceives by means of the senses, but only that he understands and wills. And even his understanding and willing does not happen, in our case, by means of operation that are in a certain sense distinct one from another; we must rather suppose that there is always a single identical and perfectly simple act by means of which he simultaneously understands, wills, and accomplishes everything.
This is clearly not the Christian God. God manifested on earth in the form of Jesus Christ, who, according to Christianity, was a living, breathing, sensing (divine) human. Descartes does not attribute reason to his God - throughout his work, he distinguishes reason (intelligence drawn from the senses) from the will and wisdom. To Descartes, the laws and output of emergent processes (including, in my opinion, his vague notion of evolution) were "God." Of course, if he didn't use the term God, he would have been quickly censored (most likely murdered).

In Discourse on the Method, Descartes writes,
From that I went on to speak of the earth in particular: how, although I had expressly supposed that God had put no gravity into the matter of which it was formed, still all its parts tended exactly toward its centre; how, there being water and air on its surface, the disposition of the heavens and heavenly bodies (chiefly the moon), had to cause an ebb and flow similar in all respects to that observed in our seas
Essentially he argues that no matter what God did, these physical laws would exist. They don't come from God, they exist independent of God.

Of course, he later writes,
Yet I did not wish to infer from all this that our world was created in the way I proposed, for it is much more likely that from the beginning God made it just as it had to be.
Why do you think, after explaining in detail how much of the functioning of the universe can be explained without God, he suddenly says "This probably isn't how it happened!" He didn't want to be killed for his beliefs.

Look at this (still the same page):
So, even if in the beginning God had given the world only the form of a chaos, provided that he established the laws of nature and then lent his concurrence to enable nature to operate as it normally does, we may believe without impugning the miracle of creation that by this means alone all purely material things could in the course of time have come to be just as we now see them. And their nature is much easier to conceive if we see them develop gradually in this way than if we consider them only in their completed form.
Sounds a whole lot like evolution.

As for Einstein, I'll let him speak for himself (you only chose to quote part of what he said!):
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
Seraph
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Post by Seraph »

Einstein didn't believe in a personal God. The G&S page even points this out by saying that Einstein was a deist. However other quotes from Einstein show that he did believe in God, even if he isn't personal.
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godslanguage
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Post by godslanguage »

Yes, Seraph knows of what he speaks! Maybe you should first do some research first?
"Is it possible that God is not just an Engineer, but also a divine Artist who creates at times solely for His enjoyment? Maybe the Creator really does like beetles." RTB
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Post by Seraph »

Plus, the quotes you used for Descartes don't even suggest that he didn't believe in God. You basically put words in his mouth when you "explained" the quotes. You even claim that Descartes didn't believe in the Christian God because he didn't believe that God has a physical body (the fact that he said this shows in itself that he believes in God). Well according the the Bible, the Christian God doesn't have a physical body.
I find it sad that religious people, who argue that their beliefs are a necessary foundation for a moral system, resort to skewing the writings and beliefs of some of the greatest thinkers to ever live.

Well I find it both sad and ironic that you are in fact the one who resorts to skewing the writings and beliefs of some of the greatest thinkers just to try and create an attack on Christianity and God (the very same God those two believed in by the way).
Last edited by Seraph on Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by godslanguage »

I know your trying to set up your own flawed argument to somehow stupify Christians, but IQs have been shown to be independent and irrelavent on the belief of the inidividual, its usually when they are exposed to the liberal academic authorities when the patterns of thought start to change, it has nothing to do with the "minds" of the individuals...I hope you agree with this. Dawkins may believe individuals with relgious beliefs are deluded, but that does not mean Dawkins has a higher IQ than that particular individual. So dont think that I care what "beliefs" Einstein OR Descartes OR Ayn Rand OR whoever else had about God, even the facts measured up at one point or instance for Einstein to conclude that there is "somehow" a God as the cause for existence, Christians only go a step ahead of that, this step is written in the bible.
"Is it possible that God is not just an Engineer, but also a divine Artist who creates at times solely for His enjoyment? Maybe the Creator really does like beetles." RTB
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Post by MD27 »

Seraph wrote:Einstein didn't believe in a personal God. The G&S page even points this out by saying that Einstein was a deist. However other quotes from Einstein show that he did believe in God, even if he isn't personal.
Yes, but the God of Christianity is a personal God. If Richard Dawkins rewrote The Selfish Gene and used the term "God" instead of evolution, would you say "Wow, this all makes sense"?
godslanguage wrote: Dawkins may believe individuals with relgious beliefs are deluded, but that does not mean Dawkins has a higher IQ than that particular individual. So dont think that I care what "beliefs" Einstein OR Descartes OR Ayn Rand OR whoever else had about God
Sure, I agree with that. But IQ is pretty much irrelevant to considering whose beliefs you should listen to. IQ is independent of knowledge. You can have a genius-level IQ without ever reading a single book. Does that make you qualified to explain the existence of the universe?
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Post by Seraph »

Nobody ever said that Einstein was a christian. The page is called "Famous scientists who believed in God" not "Famous scientists who were Chrsitians." A good deal of them just happen to be Christians. The page's purpose is mainly to show that it is extremely uneducated to say that theists are deluded stupid people while the true intellegent people turn to atheism. It is not trying to say "famous scientists were Christians, so Christianity must be true". We don't need to resort to that. Theres plenty of other evidence that Christianty is true.
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Post by godslanguage »

My post was related to how the non-believers accuse those "believers" genetic makeup + IQ has something to do with not understanding the evidence or not being able to absorb the knowledge or dismissing the evidence in favor of some "God" with no evidence, logic or reason. Your right that IQ is not important but for the case I'm trying to make, the point is that neither IQ/Knowledge of an individual has anything to do with "faith" of an individual and is irrelevant. Im sure there are lots more knowledgeble people then Dawkins in Biology that can put faith and trust in God, or less knowledgeble people. The other point is that an individual like Einstein didn't believe in a personal God, but he looked at the evidence and this made him wonder how could there not be a creator, he based this on the evidence that was gained from his knowledge about physics. Einstein proved that even someone with no faith in God could believe in God, he based his statement on the scientific evidence, but faith does not have to rely on a build up of scientific evidence, however some people assume it has to and that they should at that instance judge the individual on the basis of IQ/Knowledge for a belief in a personal creator.
"Is it possible that God is not just an Engineer, but also a divine Artist who creates at times solely for His enjoyment? Maybe the Creator really does like beetles." RTB
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Post by Gman »

Seraph wrote:Nobody ever said that Einstein was a christian. The page is called "Famous scientists who believed in God" not "Famous scientists who were Chrsitians." A good deal of them just happen to be Christians. The page's purpose is mainly to show that it is extremely uneducated to say that theists are deluded stupid people while the true intellegent people turn to atheism. It is not trying to say "famous scientists were Christians, so Christianity must be true". We don't need to resort to that. Theres plenty of other evidence that Christianty is true.
Seraph, well spoken... I like what you have written here... :wink:
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Post by Seraph »

Thanks Gman :mrgreen:
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Post by Seraph »

Einstein's statement about his belief in God
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings."
However, Einstein's reason for not believing in the Christian God was based on a simply lack of understanding of the Christian God.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/einstein.php


As for Descartes however, there are countless sources showing that he was a Christian and as such believed in the Christian God.
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