How do you view Islam? Vote in Poll

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:07 pm

Lizard Man wrote:Submission to God and the way to true inner-peace & joy.

Even if your God doesn't support it?

Lizard Man · Post by **Lizard Man** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:30 pm

Gman wrote:Even if your God doesn't support it?

I guess that's always open for debate, if you want to be politically correct.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:17 pm

Ok, then where does Allah command his people to love all people?

Lizard Man · Post by **Lizard Man** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:36 pm

Gman wrote:Ok, then where does Allah command his people to love all people?

What does that have to do with the subject? If you have any questions, feel free to message me, be it PM or AIM.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:47 pm

I will be glad to because your message didn't have anything to do with the subject either...

Lizard Man · Post by **Lizard Man** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:00 pm

Gman wrote:Ok, then where does Allah command his people to love all people?

Keep in mind I haven't read all of the Qur'an yet, so I can't point to any one passage at the moment. However, just from indexing the terms it's easy to see our commandments of love. Muslims are to respect all orders of society, from mothers, wives, elderly, scholars, minorities, ect. Even unbelievers should be treated with respect and patience (except when under attack).

AttentionKMartShoppers · Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:20 pm

Lizard Man wrote:
Gman wrote:Ok, then where does Allah command his people to love all people?
Keep in mind I haven't read all of the Qur'an yet, so I can't point to any one passage at the moment. However, just from indexing the terms it's easy to see our commandments of love. Muslims are to respect all orders of society, from mothers, wives, elderly, scholars, minorities, ect. Even unbelievers should be treated with respect and patience (except when under attack).

1) What verses are these? And 2) have they been abrogated? 3) Any of the ahaditha expounding on your topics and explaining that Muslims should do what you claim the Koran says they should? Especially "unbelievers should be treated with respect and patience."

Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, "protected people," are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur'an's command that they "feel themselves subdued" (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, is part of the law that global jihadists are laboring to impose everywhere, ultimately on the entire human race.

That verse been abrogated? (hint: not likely, it's towards the end of the Koran, in the same sura as the verse or verses of the sword)

Lizard Man · Post by **Lizard Man** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:15 am

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 8657#38657

I've already addressed the issue of "abrogated verses" in that topic.

I don't have my Qur'an with me at the moment, so I'll leave you with the status of human rights in Islam (if the mods permit me

):
http://www.islam101.com/rights/index.htm

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:52 am

Gman wrote:Ok, then where does Allah command his people to love all people?

This article may interest you about love in the Qur'an.

http://www.answering-islam.de/Main///Qu ... s/love.htm

Allah loves conditionally. The article compares YHVH's love and Allah's love.

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:06 pm

Thanks Christian2, yes I remember reading that a long time ago... It has a lot of info.. What I was looking for however was a commandment to love your neighbor as yourself like Matt 22:39.

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:20 am

Gman wrote:Thanks Christian2, yes I remember reading that a long time ago... It has a lot of info.. What I was looking for however was a commandment to love your neighbor as yourself like Matt 22:39.

Oh, you are looking for what we call the "golden rule." I have been through this with the Muslims and there isn't one in Islam. The closest that they come is for Muslims to treat each other as they would want to be treated and not everyone as Jesus preached. If I can find the Surah I will post it to you.

Christian2 · Post by **Christian2** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:35 am

Gman wrote:Thanks Christian2, yes I remember reading that a long time ago... It has a lot of info.. What I was looking for however was a commandment to love your neighbor as yourself like Matt 22:39.

I just looked at a topic on the golden rule that I posted to Muslims. None could come up with the similar verse in the Qur'an. The closest saying comes from the Hadith which was posted by a non-Muslim:

"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."

I interpret "brother" here to mean fellow Muslim.

Nothing like the following is in the Qur'an:

Judaism: "...thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.", Leviticus 19:18

"What is hateful to you, do not to your fellow man. This is the law: all the rest is commentary." Talmud, Shabbat 31a.

"And what you hate, do not do to any one." Tobit 4:15

Hinduism: "One should not behave towards others in a way which is disagreeable to oneself." Mencius Vii.A.4

"This is the sum of the Dharma [duty]: do naught unto others which would cause you pain if done to you." Mahabharata 5:1517

Confucianism: "Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" Analects 15:23

Christianity: "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Matthew 7:12, King James Version.

"And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." Luke 6:31, King James Version.

I think your question is important. My observation of Muslims is that they believe in revenge and an eye for an eye. This in itself would eliminate the golden rule.

Instead we find the following:

Qur'an 9:71 “O Prophet, strive hard [fighting] against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be harsh with them. Their abode is Hell, an evil refuge indeed.”

Qur'an 8:59 “The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them.”

Qur'an 4:168 “Those who reject [Islamic] Faith, Allah will not forgive them nor guide them to any path except the way to Hell, to dwell therein forever. And this to Allah is easy.”

Qur'an 4:114 “He who disobeys the Apostle after guidance has been revealed will burn in Hell.”

Ishaq:344 “We smote them and they scattered. The impious met death. They became fuel for Hell. All who aren't Muslims must go there. It will consume them while the Stoker [Allah] increases the heat. They had called Allah's Apostle a liar. They claimed, 'You are nothing but a sorcerer.' So Allah destroyed them.”

Qur'an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.”

Qur'an 33:64 “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers [whom he defines as Christians in the 5th surah] and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: 'Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!' 'Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!'”

Qur'an 5:10 “Those who reject, disbelieve and deny Our signs, proofs and verses will be companions of Hell-Fire.”

Qur'an 88:1 “Has the narration reached you of the overwhelming (calamity)? Some faces (all disbelievers, Jews and Christians) that Day, will be humiliated, downcast, scorched by the burning fire, while they are made to drink from a boiling hot spring.”

Bukhari:V1B11N617 “I would order someone to collect firewood and another to lead prayer. Then I would burn the houses of men who did not present themselves at the compulsory prayer and prostration.”

Bukhari:V1B11N626 “The Prophet said, 'No prayer is harder for the hypocrites than the Fajr. If they knew the reward they would come to (the mosque) even if they had to crawl. Certainly I decided to order a man to lead the prayer and then take a flame to burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.'”

Bukhari:V4B52N260 “The Prophet said, 'If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.'”

Qur'an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.”

Qur'an 74:31 “We have appointed nineteen angels to be the wardens of the Hell Fire. We made a stumbling-block for those who disbelieve and We have fixed their number as a trial for unbelievers in order that the People of the Book may arrive with certainty, and that no doubts may be left for the People of the Book, those in whose hearts is a disease.”

Bukhari:V4B54N487 “The Prophet said, 'The Hell Fire is 69 times hotter than ordinary worldly fires.' So someone said, 'Allah's Apostle, wouldn't this ordinary fire have been sufficient to torture the unbelievers?'”

Qur'an 72:15 “The disbelievers are the firewood of hell.”

Qur'an 72:17 “If any turns away from the reminder of his Lord (the

Qur'an), He will thrust him into an ever growing torment, and cause for him a severe penalty.”

Qur'an 72:25 “Whoever disobeys the Lord and His Messenger then there is for him the fire of Hell where they shall abide forever.”

Qur'an 88:21 “You are not a warden over them; except for those who turn away and disbelieve, in which case, he will be punished with the severest punishment. Verily to Us they will return.”

Qur'an 90:19 “But those who reject Our Signs, Proofs, and Verses, they are the unhappy Companions of the Left Hand. Fire will be their awning, vaulting over them.”

Qur'an 95:4 “We have indeed created man in the best molds. Then do We abase him, reducing him to be the lowest of the low, except such as believe.”

Tabari VIII:130 “The Messenger said, 'Two religions cannot coexist in the Arabian Peninsula.' Umar investigated the matter, then sent to the Jews, saying: 'Allah has given permission for you to be expelled.”

Qur'an 2:64 “But you [Jews] went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you.”

Qur'an 66:9 “O Prophet! Strive hard against the unbelieving Infidels and the Hypocrites; be severe against them. Their abode is Hell, an evil resort.”

Qur'an 60:1 “Believers, take not my enemies and yours as allies, offering them love, even though they have rejected the truth that has come to you, and have driven out the Prophet and you because you believe in Allah! If you have come out to struggle [fight jihad] in My Cause, and to seek My Pleasure, (take them not as friends), holding secret converse of love with them: for I am aware of all you conceal. And any of you that does this has strayed from the Straight Path. If they were to get the better of you, they would be your foes, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you with evil (designs).”

Qur'an 60:5 “We reject you. Hostility and hate have come between us forever, unless you believe in Allah only.'”

Qur'an 48:13 “If any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared a Blazing Fire for them!”

Qur'an 48:28 “It is He Who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he may make it superior to every other religion, exalting it over them. Allah is a sufficient Witness. Muhammad is the Prophet of Allah. Those who are with him are severe with Infidel unbelievers.”

Qur'an 47:3 “Those who disbelieve follow vanities, while those who believe follow truth from their Lord: Thus does Allah coin for men their similitudes [resemblances] as a lesson. Whoever denies faith [in Islam and Muhammad], his work is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.”

Qur'an 9:2 “You cannot weaken Allah or escape. Allah will disgrace the unbelievers and put those who reject Him to shame.”

Qur'an 9:4 “You cannot escape Allah, weaken or frustrate Him. And proclaim a grievous penalty of a painful doom to those who reject [Islamic] Faith.”

Qur'an 9:17 “The disbelievers have no right to visit the mosques of Allah while bearing witness against their own souls to infidelity. These it is whose doings are in vain, and in the fire shall they abide. Only he shall visit the mosques of Allah who believes in Allah and the latter day, and keeps up devotional obligations, pays the zakat, and fears none but Allah.”

Qur'an 9:28 “Believers, truly the pagan disbelievers are unclean.”

Qur'an 9:30 “The Jews call Uzair (Ezra) the son of Allah, and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying from their mouths; they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's (Himself) fights against them, cursing them, damning and destroying them. How perverse are they!”

Qur'an 9:33 “He has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam) to make it superior over all religions, even though the disbelievers detest (it).”

Qur'an 9:63 “Know they not that for those who oppose Allah and His Messenger is the Fire of Hell wherein they shall dwell? That is the supreme disgrace.”

Qur'an 9:66 “Make no excuses: you have rejected Faith after you had accepted it. If We pardon some of you, We will punish others amongst you, for they are disbelievers.”

Qur'an 9:113 “It is not fitting for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for the forgiveness for disbelievers, even though they be close relatives, after it is clear to them that they are the inmates of the Flaming Hell Fire.”

Qur'an 5:78 “Curses were pronounced on the unbelievers, the Children of Israel who rejected Islam, by the tongues of David and of Jesus because they disobeyed and rebelled.”

Qur'an 5:80 “You see many of them allying themselves with the Unbelievers [other translations read: “Infidels”]. Vile indeed are their souls. Allah's wrath is on them, and in torment will they abide.”

Qur'an 5:82 “You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims.”

Qur'an 5:86 “Those who reject Islam and are disbelievers, denying our Signs and Revelations —they shall be the owners of the Hell Fire.”

Tabari IX:78 “No polytheist shall come near the Holy Mosque, and no one shall circumambulate Allah's House naked.”

Ishaq:246 “Hypocrites used to assemble in the mosque and listen to the stories of the Muslims and laugh and scoff at their religion. So Muhammad ordered that they should be ejected. They were thrown out with great violence. Abu went to Amr, took his foot and dragged him out of the mosque. Another Muslim slapped a man's face while dragging him forcefully, knocking him down. One was pulled violently by his hair. 'Don't come near the Apostle's mosque again, for you are unclean.' The first hundred verses of the Cow surah came down in reference to these Jewish rabbis and Hypocrites.”

Ishaq:262 “Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse.”

Qur'an 5:51 “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends. They are but friends and protectors to each other.”

Ishaq:245 “The Apostle used to say, 'Their religion will never march with ours.'”

Bukhari:V4B52N288 “Expel disbelievers from the Arabian Peninsula.'”

Qur'an 2:191 “Slay them wherever you find and catch them, and drive them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter.”

Qur'an 33:25 “Allah drove the disbelievers back...and helped the believers in battle.... He terrorized the People of the Book so that you killed some and made many captive.”

Tabari IX:167 “Muhammad waged war against the false prophets [slitting his own wrists would have done nicely] by sending messengers with instructions to get rid of them by artful contrivance [plot or machination].”

Bukhari:V5B59N727 “When Allah's Apostle became seriously sick, he started covering his face with a woolen sheet. When he felt short of breath, he removed it, and said, 'That is so! Allah's curse be on Jews and Christians.'”

Qur'an 21:98 “Verily you (disbelieving Infidels), and the gods that you worship besides Allah, are the fuel for Hell, [homosexuals] for the fire! Certainly you will enter it! Had their (idols) been (real) alihah (gods), they would have kept them out of Hell. Therein, sobbing will be your lot. Breathing with deep sighs, roaring. You will hear nothing but wailing and groaning.”

Qur'an 18:103 “Say: 'Shall we inform you of who will be the greatest losers? …Those who reject my Revelations… Hell is their reward, because they rejected Islam, and took My proofs, verses, and lessons, and those of My Messengers by way of jest in mockery.'”

Qur'an 52:9 “On the Day when heaven will heave in dreadful shaking, trembling, and mountains will fly hither and thither, woe to those who reject [me], that play in shallow trifles and sport in vain discourses. That Day they will be pushed down by force, thrust with a horrible thrust into the Fire of Hell. Unable to resist, they shall be driven to the fire with violence.”

Qur'an 40:10 “Lo, those who disbelieve will be informed by proclamation: 'Verily Allah's abhorrence is more terrible than your aversion to yourselves. Allah's hatred of you is terrible, seeing that you were called to the Faith [of submission] and you refused.'”

Qur'an 40:35 “Those who dispute the Signs and Verses of Allah without any authority, grievous and odious, hateful and disgusting, is it in the sight of Allah and the Believers.'”

Ishaq:185 “Adam reviewed the spirits of his offspring. The infidels excited his disgust. I saw men with lips like camels. In their hands were pieces of fire like stones which they thrust into their mouths. They came out their posteriors.”

Qur'an 20:48 “Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty of Doom awaits those who reject and deny.”

Qur'an 20:100 “Whoever turns from it, he shall bear a burden on the Day of Doom. Grievous evil will the load on them. We shall gather the Mujrimun (disbeliever) blue or blind-eyed with thirst.... My Lord will blast them and scatter them as dust.”

Qur'an 21:06 “Not one of the populations which We destroyed believed: will these believe? ...So we saved whom We pleased, and We destroyed the disbelievers.”

Qur'an 21:10 “Verily, We have sent down for you a Book in which is your reminder. Have you then no sense? How many towns have We utterly destroyed because of their wrongs, exchanging them for other people? When they (felt) Our Torment, behold, they (began to) fly. Fly not, but return to that which emasculated you so that you may be interrogated. They cried: 'Woe to us!' Their crying did not cease till We mowed them down as ashes silent and quenched.”

Qur'an 21:98 “Verily you (unbelievers), and that which you worship besides Allah, are [homosexuals] for the Hell Fire! And come to it you will! There, sobbing and groaning will be your lot.”

Qur'an 46:20 “On that Day the unbelievers will be placed before the Fire: 'You squandered your good things in this life and you sought comfort from them, but today shall you be rewarded with a penalty of humiliation.'”

Qur'an 59:4 “If any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment, stern in reprisal.”

Ishaq:249 “Fear Hell, whose fuel is men and stones prepared for the infidels.'”

Qur'an 2:39 “Those who reject and deny Our Signs will be inmates of the Hell Fire and will abide there forever.”

Qur'an 2:99 “We have sent down to you Manifest Signs; and none reject them but those who are perverse.”

Qur'an 2:71 “The semblance of the infidels is one who shouts to one who cannot hear. They are deaf, dumb, and blind. They make no sense.”

Qur'an 2:174 “Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the [Bible] Scripture Book, and thus make a miserable profit thereby [selling it to Muhammad], swallow Fire into themselves; Allah will not address them. Grievous will be their doom.”

Qur'an 2:175 “They are the ones who bartered away guidance for error and Torment in place of Forgiveness. Ah, what boldness (they show) for the Fire! (Their doom is) because Allah sent down the Book in truth but those who seek causes of dispute in the Book are in a schism of great opposition.”

Qur'an 2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion.”

Qur'an 4:90 “If they turn back from Islam, becoming renegades, seize them and kill them wherever you find them.”

Bukhari:V5B59N572 “O Muslims, take not My enemies as friends, offering them kindness when they reject Allah, the Prophet Muhammad, and his

Qur'an. And whoever does that, then indeed he has gone (far) astray. You have come out to fight in My Cause, seeking My acceptance so do not be friendly with them, even in secret.” [60:1]

Qur'an 8:12 “I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes.”

Qur'an 8:13 “This because they rejected Allah and defied His Messenger. If anyone opposes Allah and His Messenger, Allah shall be severe in punishment. That is the torment: 'So taste the punishment. For those infidels who resist there is the torment of Hell.'”

Qur'an 8:20 “Those who do not obey are the worst of beasts, the vilest of animals in the sight of Allah. They are deaf and dumb. Those who do not understand are senseless.”

Qur'an 8:36 “The unbelievers spend their wealth to hinder (man) from the Way of Allah, and so will they continue to spend; but in the end they will have intense regrets and sighs. It will become an anguish for them, then they will be subdued. The unbelievers shall be driven into hell in order that Allah may distinguish the bad from the good and separate them. Allah wants to heap the wicked one over the other and cast them into Hell. They are the losers.”

Qur'an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).”

Qur'an 8:40 “If people are obstinate, and refuse to surrender, know Allah is your Supporter.”

Qur'an 8:50 “If you could have seen the infidels when the angels drew away their souls, striking their faces and smiting their backs. The angels said: 'Taste the penalty of the blazing Fire.'”

Qur'an 8:52 “They denied and rejected the revelations of Allah, and Allah destroyed them, punishing them for their crimes: for Allah is strict, severe in punishment.”

Ishaq:231 “Muslims are one ummah (community) to the exclusion of all men. Believers are friends of one another to the exclusion of all outsiders.”

Ishaq:363 “Say to those who do not believe you: 'You will be vanquished and gathered into Hell, an evil resting place.'”

Qur'an 61:7 “Who does greater wrong than one who invents falsehood against Allah, even as he is being summoned to Submission? And Allah guides not the disbelievers. Their intention is to extinguish Allah's Light (by blowing) with their mouths: But Allah will complete His Light, even though the Unbelievers detest (it). It is He Who has sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth (Islam), that he may make it conquer all religion, even though the disbelievers hate (it).”

Qur'an 2:104 “To those who don't submit there is a grievous punishment.”

Qur'an 3:4 “As a guidance to mankind, He sent down the criterion (to judge between right and wrong). Truly, for those who deny the proofs and signs of Allah, the torture will be severe; Allah is powerful, the Lord of Retribution.”
”
Qur'an 3:26 “You [Allah] exalt whom You please and debase and humiliate whom You will. Those who believe should not take unbelievers as their friends…guard yourselves from them.… Allah commands you to beware of Him.”

Qur'an 3:32 “Say: 'Obey Allah and His Messenger;' If they refuse, remember Allah does not like unbelieving infidels.”

Qur'an 3:55 “Allah said, 'Jesus, I will take you and raise you to Myself and rid you of the infidels (who have forged the lie that you are My son).… Those who are infidels will surely receive severe torment both in this world and the next; and none will they have as a savior for them.”

Qur'an 3:61 “If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them.”

Qur'an 3:62 “This is the true account, the true narrative, the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah; and Allah—He is the Mighty. And if they turn away, then lo! Allah is aware of the corrupters, the mischief-makers. Say: 'People of the Book, come to common terms as an agreement between us and you: That we all shall worship none but Allah.'”

Qur'an 3:84 “Say (Muhammad): 'We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes [of Israel], and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered, bowing our will (in Islam).'”

Qur'an 3:85 “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (Surrender), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who are losers.”

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:29 pm

Wow, interesting... Ask and ye shall receive... Thanks Christian2...

G -

Judah · Post by **Judah** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:56 pm

Thank you for sharing all that research, C2, and for linking to the paper that compares YHVH's love and Allah's love.

I often wonder if folk who willingly convert to Islam actually look into these matters fully themselves before they do so. An analogy would be reading the fine print on the back of the document rather than just listening to the salesman who naturally has much invested in making the sale. This information would certainly pull me up short if I was considering Islam as an option. If knowing this they still go ahead, then I guess they must be looking for something far different from what I did to choose Christianity.

This verse, Qur'an 2:256 “There is no compulsion in religion”, is one of those which has been abrogated by the verse of the Sword, Surah 9:5 "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)".

Gman · Post by **Gman** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:06 pm

Judah wrote:I often wonder if folk who willingly convert to Islam actually look into these matters fully themselves before they do so. An analogy would be reading the fine print on the back of the document rather than just listening to the salesman who naturally has much invested in making the sale. This information would certainly pull me up short if I was considering Islam as an option. If knowing this they still go ahead, then I guess they must be looking for something far different from what I did to choose Christianity.

Yes.. In fact my sister was drawn into Sufism (a more moderate form of Isalm, often called Islamic mysticism). She was enticed mainly though poetry by Muhammad Rumi, whom she really adored.

Now my sister is no dummy either... She was an ivy league graduate from Cornell University in up state N.Y.. To her the whole thing was so different from the norm that she wanted to do it. The way they dressed, the way they prayed, the way they wrote their poetry really impressed her... It wasn't until later when I showed her some verses how the Quran perceived women that I finally got her to change. At first she did NOT believe it. She asked, "Whose translation are you reading it from?" I think she was checking out the verses with her Islamic priest back then and denied it. We didn't have google back then either, so I kind of had to rely on my own Qurans that I bought. After about a year of this, she finally realized the dilemma she was facing and she finally quit. It was a huge battle though... One that I wouldn't want to repeat.

Unfortunately for her she still doesn't like Christianity. I've been trying my best for years now but I don't know if she will ever turn to it... I think she sees most Chrisitians as being dull or stupid. She is a rather cultured person, and see's Christianity as the American way... Like a cliche.

For me Christianity is more complicated than that... I see people professing to be Christian, but when I look at their lifestyles, I'm kind of turned off by it and wonder if they really are Christian. To me it's all about humility.. I think the real Christians are not haughty or ostentatious. They can also be their own individual if they wanted that as well...

I also think people tend to forget that Christianity is actually a middle eastern religon which did NOT originate in Europe.. There are many idioms, orientalisms, and figures of speech that give Christianity a kind of mystic quality as well... (even though I'm not a mystic).

In some ways I'm really drawn to the way Catholics express their Christianity, more like a mystery which is kind of neat.. I also like their music better because it is so sad and lonely... But then again I can be turned off by it's structure... (no offense John). Anyways, we all come to Christ in our own way, right?

Ok, I'm rambling again... Sorry.

G-