Evidence for God from Science

This thread highlights my issues with institutionalised Christianity.
Where hierarchies and a subset of rules handed down by those in higher positions within the church dictate and oppress those that don't fit or follow the status quo.
Is singing in a choir or playing in a band really a leadership position? I'm not talking about if said church has made such position leadership but whether it actually is.
I don't think the congregation looks for the most pious and appoints them to play a piano. You actually have to be able to play a piano to get the job. You need to be able to sing to not strain the ears of everyone else, you have to able to strum a guitar to get the gig.
These are nothing more than people with the skill set putting their hands up and saying yea I can do that, I can contribute there.
The church has a long and troubled history of people in positions of leadership making a mockery of Christ. Pastors, preachers and Priests on our front pages who have fallen far from grace in sometimes the most shocking of ways. Those with the squeaky clean fronts but with darkest of secrets.
Personally when someone is openly honest with their shortcomings then I believe what is brought into the light can be tackled by the light. That which lies in darkness stays there and festers.
If someone is causing division within the church then of course that needs to be dealt with, but not because we're trying to keep up an image but because we are trying to protect the flock.
There's a difference.
If the motivation lies more in protecting an 'image' of what is righteous over protecting our brothers and sisters and upholding authenticity then the line has been drawn.

A church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.

Melanie wrote:
A church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.

Oh naive one. Shalt thou never learn? Church is a place to make money. Lots of money.

Signed,

Joel Osteen

Haha
Hallelujah..... Shall I sign you a cheque??

B. W. wrote:Heard this discussion about a couple who live together who attend a church. The woman is part of the praise band and he boyfriend is involved in the church in some manner as well.

This was on a Christian TV question and answer program and went like this. Audience emailed a question regarding a woman, unmarried, living a long time with her boy friend if she should be permitted on the worship team.

The respondents all said no, she should not be allowed. The couple, per email were planning to get married anyways in the church in the future. The question was posed that before they do, she should step down from the worship team because God does not condone such shacking up...

It is the hostile tone of the experts that shocked me. The tone of the experts was quite religious in tone. Not one asked if the women in question was already considered married by State Common Law laws due to the duration of living together. They went into, well a... well no other way to put it nicely, a sanctimonious answer without considering any facts. It appears that they concur that in a situation like this a person is unfit for service for the Lord period.

However, none mentioned the Woman at the Well Jesus spoke too who had 5 previous husbands, and the man she lived with now (shacked up with) was not her husband. Let's not forget that she went back to her home town and was God's instrument he used to bring to whole town to Jesus,

So, in you opinion - God have an ax to grind against man and woman couple shacked together from being used for his purposes?

Why or why not?
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I don't consider social approval marriage. I'd just leave the church, consider it dangerous.

I just love the woman at the well story.

The interesting thing about that story as BW mentioned, is that Christ used that woman to convert a whole town. He could of killed the woman dead on the spot for the sin of fornication and He had every right to do so. Jesus' earth father Joseph knew how serious that sin was according to Jewish law because he planned to divorce Mary secretly when he discovered she was pregnant. He dared not divorce her openly because he knew that an open divorce in that culture under Jewish law would most likely result in Mary being stoned to death.

The thing I believe that is overlooked in that story is that that was when Christ was here in the flesh. Some may call it the First Advent. And as He said in John 3:17, "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

When Christ returns the second time however, at the Second Advent, I see no evidence in Scripture that He is returning here to save sinners. On the contrary, He is returning as a King with an iron sceptre and He plans to judge and destroy. Not save. He has given humanity over 2000 years to be saved by Him already.

After reading through the thread, I do not think there is enough evidence to say she has been sexually intimate with her boyfriend but probably so. And if that is the case, then she should not be in a position to teach others. However, she was in a praise band. She was not teaching.

I would have to agree with Jac as there is a huge difference between being a repentant sinner and a habitual sinner and Christian believers have every right to judge other believers moral behavior within the church. Jesus hammered the Pharisees because they followed earthly rules and taught it as truth. As He said to them in Mark 7:9, "And he said unto them, Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition." I think a vast majority of Christians today actually do reject the commandments of God so that they may keep their own tradition because the commandments of God are well, downright offensive, backwards and archaic to a modern godless Western culture which is absolutely hostile towards Christianity.

Jesus condemned fornication. He claimed it was evil. There is no getting around it.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Mark 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

Mark 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the person.

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

Matthew 19:20 These are the things which defile a person:

Paul's writings go even further as a second witness to Christ's teachings, claiming that fornication is unrighteous and is one of the sins that excludes a person from obtaining the kingdom of God. Generally speaking from a Biblical perspective, God almost always and exclusively likens fornication to idolatry or worshipping another God and there is a reason the first commandment is the first. Committing fornication, (from God's perspective in His Word), is not only breaking the seventh commandment because fornication is a form of adultery, (which is illicit sexual intercourse outside of marriage) but it is like breaking the first commandment as well.

1 Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Teach others that fornication is wrong these days and you will not be popular. Period. Keep God's Word as your template and you cannot lose regardless of how unpopular it makes you.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

RickD wrote:

Melanie wrote:
A church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.

Oh naive one. Shalt thou never learn? Church is a place to make money. Lots of money.

Signed,

Joel Osteen

The Church is many things, including Christ's bride, Christ's body, both containing sinners yet righteous and spotless. Right? A church, now that's something different.

Kurieuo wrote:

RickD wrote:

Melanie wrote:
A church is a hospital for sinners not a museum for saints.

Oh naive one. Shalt thou never learn? Church is a place to make money. Lots of money.

Signed,

Joel Osteen

The Church is many things, including Christ's bride, Christ's body, both containing sinners yet righteous and spotless. Right? A church, now that's something different.

Oh Ye of little faith. Send a love donation of $1000, and we will send you a genuine prayer cloth touched by Benny Hinn.

You know when Popeye the Sailer became saved, born again he said:

I am's what I am's by God's grace I am's...
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P.S. God's Grace removes the stains of sin and restores the soul...

Heb. 13:4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
We need to learn our bibles and the church should practice church discipline. This is love!

Here is a recent one:

This past week. Native American (First Nation Couple) married native custom with 15 year old son, during the June 18, 2016 Saturday Meeting found Jesus and a whole lot of heart healing too. Now will make their marriage USA State Legal come July in a few weeks...

Mel has a point: many in established churches would shun such a couple as this and be overly religiously sanctimonious towards them. The man fell away from church because of those religiously sanctimonious folks. But this last week, came back to Jesus and His wife and son became born again. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty - a freedom from control of man - the Lord then moves upon the heart and changes without our meddling and playing god.

Praise the Lord!

So nice to be and a part of a team whose goal is to exalt Jesus and not religion to help establish a new congregation infused with the same vision. Things happen - big things... to numerous to write here.
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Speaking of Native Americans...

"If you were to second guess your decision to book some time to visit an Indian community, that would be a reservation reservation reservation.”

-Brian Regan

B.W., are you saying we should not shun a person who claims to be a believer yet is sexually immoral? I Cor. 5:9-13 says we should judge the brother that claims to be a brother yet lives flagrantly against God's standards. Here we need to show discernment for we all sin but this passage is referring to one who willfully lives against God's standards - not willing to change. The shunning is loving for it is meant to bring them back to God, submitting to God in right relationship.

swordfish7 wrote:B.W., are you saying we should not shun a person who claims to be a believer yet is sexually immoral? I Cor. 5:9-13 says we should judge the brother that claims to be a brother yet lives flagrantly against God's standards. Here we need to show discernment for we all sin but this passage is referring to one who willfully lives against God's standards - not willing to change. The shunning is loving for it is meant to bring them back to God, submitting to God in right relationship.

No I am not but there is a context one needs that only the Lord can give. Jesus came to save whom and he sat in the house of whom? From this, I hope you will see the context.

The Native American First Nation couple with the 15 year old son never darkened the door of a church. The man, for years stopped going to church. They came back to a meeting and the Holy Spirit alone saved and convicted them.

I will never post - if you are sinner we must shun you from attending a revival meeting on the door - there is a context.

I have counselled many immoral Christian believers who were wishing and praying to be free from their sexual sins and immoral sins booze, drugs, etc. They cannot share in a church because they would be shunned and never find the freedom Christ brings. So I pray and talk with them. Sooner of later they get it and find Isaiah 61:1-4 true and they repent and build a new way away from what ruined their lives.

I also encounter some who simply love their immoral behavior more than the Lord and reject all prayers and help by either direct rejection or being a spiritual leech so for such persons they should be shunned but if they do come back, repentant, we are required to take them back in. If not, they are toast...

The original statement on this thread dealt with a couple shacking up together and the gal being on the praise team with the Pastors approval. I cannot speak for the pastor other than he knows something we do not. If I understood the TV show comments rightly, it sounded like they were in process to be married soon. Maybe they split up for a time till they are married but I do not know for certain. They could married by now too. Eccl chapter three speaks of times and seasons to toss stones and not to toss stones...

I actually do not have an issue with the woman being on the praise team due to the Pastor's decision (its on Him).

However, I do have an issue when a church hires a secular band, non-christian, to lead praise and worship n a church. This happens a lot in the larger and Mega churches. Most of this stuff in praise is like a concert show all very rationalized and so very sad and more serious than one woman at the praise team well shacking up with a guy who will be or now is already married... or split up from the guy. Sometimes in some cases mercy does triumphs judgment - James 2:13 NKJV other time it does not...
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B. W. wrote: No I am not but there is a context one needs that only the Lord can give. Jesus came to save whom and he sat in the house of whom? From this, I hope you will see the context.

What does the passage say? We are not to shun unbelievers and the passage says we should associate with immoral sinners (of course with spiritual reason). It says we are to shun a person who claims to be a believer (and the implication here he is attending church) yet is living immorally (1 Cor. 5:11). So this does not conflict with Jesus sitting in the house of sinners or saving sinners.

B. W. wrote: The Native American First Nation couple with the 15 year old son never darkened the door of a church. The man, for years stopped going to church. They came back to a meeting and the Holy Spirit alone saved and convicted them.

I will never post - if you are sinner we must shun you from attending a revival meeting on the door - there is a context.

Again, what does the passage say? We are not to shun unbelievers! So you are attributing to me something I am not saying.

1 Cor. 5:12 wrote:But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one.

B.W. wrote:I have counselled many immoral Christian believers who were wishing and praying to be free from their sexual sins and immoral sins booze, drugs, etc. They cannot share in a church because they would be shunned and never find the freedom Christ brings. So I pray and talk with them. Sooner of later they get it and find Isaiah 61:1-4 true and they repent and build a new way away from what ruined their lives.

You are correct that we need to keep the scripture in context or we can fall into error. The I Cor. 5 passage was addressing a difficult situation in the church where a young man was sleeping and openly living with his father's wife - likely his second wife not his mother. This was openly happening in the church and nobody was addressing it. So we need wisdom in applying this passage, specifically, how we should shun believers who are openly sinning without a heart to change. Certainly there are young men and older men who struggle with sexual immorality, but it does depend how long they have been a Christian and if they are concerned about the sin from the heart. If a guy is attempting to seduce women of the church then the issue should be addressed and the women protected: he should be shunned until there is real sorrow from the heart and a change. If he is sleeping with underage girls, then the police will be required. The goal in all this is restoration, but sometimes this is impossible. If a teenage kid is struggling with masterbation, then I don't think the kid should be shunned. A wife or husband who is hiding their drinking problem, at the same time claiming to be a Christian should possibly be shunned if there is no acknowledgement of the sin. A person who claims to be a homosexual openly living the lifestyle in defiance to the word should be shunned. A young couple who have been married under tribal traditions, who will shortly be married under state law should not be shunned. But I would advise them to get married under the state law first and then by the tribal tradition, though with the Christian context without any idolatry. The principle is that open defiant sin practiced by those claiming to be Christian should be addressed using shunning if they don't respond to the reproof.

B.W. wrote: I also encounter some who simply love their immoral behavior more than the Lord and reject all prayers and help by either direct rejection or being a spiritual leech so for such persons they should be shunned but if they do come back, repentant, we are required to take them back in. If not, they are toast...

These are the ones we should shun, but not that alcoholic who is waging the war trying to overcome his addiction, where he falls down but again gets up to fight the battle.

B.W. wrote: The original statement on this thread dealt with a couple shacking up together and the gal being on the praise team with the Pastors approval. I cannot speak for the pastor other than he knows something we do not. If I understood the TV show comments rightly, it sounded like they were in process to be married soon. Maybe they split up for a time till they are married but I do not know for certain. They could married by now too. Eccl chapter three speaks of times and seasons to toss stones and not to toss stones...

If they were approached by the elders and they agreed to be married by a certain date, I would not shun them, but I would ensure they were not serving in the church until after some time after they were married.

B.W. wrote: I actually do not have an issue with the woman being on the praise team due to the Pastor's decision (its on Him).

I don't think it is appropriate for the couple to serve in the church when they are engaging in fornication!
I agree with your Mega Church comments. Most of these churches are harmful to the body of Christ. By the way, I lived on Indian Reservations when I was a kid. My mom even carried me in a papoose board for a short while. Thank you for your heavenly service working with the Native American Indians. It can be challenging work I am sure!

I'll let you cast the first stone swordfish since I'm not without sin myself. Furthermore, I'm now legally married to the woman I fornicated with for 8 years and we have four children who God blessed us with. She also became a Christian during our fornicating together, which I'm thankful to God for. God is truly great!