more mormon heresy

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
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Sargon
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Post by Sargon »

Noah had a fog light? What?
The Book of Mormon tells the story of a family who left Mesopotamia at the time of the confounding of languages at the tower of Babel. This family built peculiar barges and were carried across the ocean by the power of God. Because these barges were built to sustain submarine like travel they had no windows and tightly sealed doors on either side to let air in when surfaced. When asked how they would see in the boats, the Lord commanded the leader of this group to come up with something. He asked the Lord to make white stones that he had gathered glow. Some believe that he got this idea from Noah's ark.
John A. Tvetdnes writes on this subject, and if you care to understand here is the link.
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=148
Are you telling me that the Spanish didn't report on the civilizations that they conquered...or that such reports, if they did exist weren't available?...Please provide some reference for your claim that the existence of cities was such a radical idea.
The Book of Mormon is the history of a small group of people, of a lineage of kings and prophets. It was handed down father to son style for hundreds of years as it was being composed. The stories in the BoM are not meant to be a complete history, but it very obvious that the background for these stories is a culture and a civilization very complex both socially and politically. It tells details of battles and wars, of miracles and prophecies. It describes sprawling cities, and impressive achievements.
Many of these achievements were thougt to have been impossible for "savages" by New England Americans. The BoM was published in 1829, when scarcely little was known about ancient-american culture. John L. Sorenson of FARMS wrote about this, and wrote about many of the details about ancient Meso-American culture we find in the BoM that were not and could not have been known by Joseph Smith or anyone else at the time in the same book mentioned above.
In 1839, 10 years after the BoM was published John Lloyd Stephens published a book about his travels and discoveries in central america, "Incidents and of Travel in Central America, Chiapas, and Yucutan". When learning about the things that Stephens wrote about, Smith was surprised that there had once been a spectacular ancient civilization in Central America, and that at least in superficial terms it agreed with the cultural patterns revealed in the BoM.
Orson Pratt, one of the better educated early LDS said, "Noone will dispute the fact that the existence of antique remains in different parts of America was known long before Mr. Smith was born. But...most of the discoveries made by Catherwood and Stephens were original-that most of the forty-four cities described by [Stephen's book] had not been described by previous travelers."

Stephen's biographer Victor W. Von Hagen wrote n 1947 in his book "Maya Explorer" John Lloyd Stephens and the Lost Cities of Central America and Yucatan" :
"The acceptance of an 'Indian civilization' demanded, to an American living in 1839, an entire reorientation, for to him, and Indian was one of those barbaric, tepee dwellers against whom wars were constantly waged...Nor did one ever think of calling the other indigenous inhabitants of the continent 'civilized'. In the universally accepted opinion [of that day], they were like the North Marican counterparts-"savages".

It is clear that very little was known about the ancient americans in Joseph Smith's day. The list of things he got right in the BoM that were discovered to be true only later is far too great to discuss here. I leave you with a link to a place where only some of those evidences are discussed:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml

Sargon
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Post by Sargon »

When the BoM was written was it contemplated (by JS and the others at the top) that the events described in the BoM occurred mainly in a small area of central america?....or was such blasphemous and was it accepted that much of what is described occurred in New England?
The Book of Mormon was written mainly by a lineage of prophets over a span of 1000 years. Their exact geographical residence is not known, though there are a few strong theories. When Joseph Smith translated the BoM the saints of the time(and Smith) believed that setting was the entire American continent, north and south. Joseph was not a scholar nor a historian. With the passing of years it became more apparent that that theory had too many improbabilities, and more and more now believe that the events in the BoM were confined to a much smaller region in central america. The church has no official position on the location, and never has.
accurate? Are you sure? Does the BoM detail the religions practised in the various mesoamerican civilizations? ...the way the temples are shaped and laid out?....the manner and seasons of the sacrifices? Please provide those accurate descriptions if you want to claim such exist.
It tells of the religion practiced by a small group of meso-americans, but only that. Its purpose was not to describe in detail the practices of false religions. It does not lay out in detail the floorplans of the massive temples, because that neither was its purpose in being written. It talks about many other things though, pertaining and not pertaining to these subjects.
Identified? Are you sure? It seems an inscription "NHM" was found and that the LDS assume that NHM is a variant of Nahom.... Please provide proof that we must (or even should) accept NHM as being Nahom.
I wont pretend to be an expert on this subject. What I do know, is that it is not claimed as proof, but as evidence. I have read the arguments for and against and my opinion is that it is strong evidence for the BoM.
http://nephiproject.com/on__nahom.htm

Thats all I have time for today. Hope you find what I wrote useful.

Sargon
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Post by Gman »

Sargon wrote:
Noah had a fog light? What?
The Book of Mormon tells the story of a family who left Mesopotamia at the time of the confounding of languages at the tower of Babel. This family built peculiar barges and were carried across the ocean by the power of God. Because these barges were built to sustain submarine like travel they had no windows and tightly sealed doors on either side to let air in when surfaced. When asked how they would see in the boats, the Lord commanded the leader of this group to come up with something. He asked the Lord to make white stones that he had gathered glow. Some believe that he got this idea from Noah's ark.
John A. Tvetdnes writes on this subject, and if you care to understand here is the link.
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=148
I'll admit that there are some things in the Bible that require supernatural explanations, but I think the BoM is taking this to the next level. I'm not sure if I'm reading a part of history here or 2000 Leagues Under the Sea. The first submarines didn't occur till around the 17th century.

As for this glowing light thing.. Urim and Thummim were not glowing stones. If you follow the history of these rocks, they were used to cast lots. If the priest pulled a black stone from his pouch it meant "no" a white one meant "yes". There are some Jewish mystics who may think otherwise, but mainline Judaism and Christianity rejects such claims...

Urim and Thummim were never used to translate ancient manuscripts as Joseph Smith claims.. Now we are getting into science fiction.. Wow, what a mess... I don't know what else to say... I'm sorry they tricked you on this Sargon. I'm not saying this to belittle you either...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Sargon
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Post by Sargon »

I'm not sure if I'm reading a part of history here or 2000 Leagues Under the Sea.
When we remember that we believe in stories about the sea being divided, about the sun and moon stopping in the skies, about a tower that reaches to heaven, about a flood that covered the earth, about a man who died and came back to life 3 days later....these stories dont seem so spectacular.
The first submarines didn't occur till around the 17th century.
Do you have proof of that? Or is it that the earliest evidence you know for them dates to the 17th century? Actually, there are some who believe that Noah's ship was more submarine like that ship-like.
As for this glowing light thing.. Urim and Thummim were not glowing stones. If you follow the history of these rocks, they were used to cast lots. If the priest pulled a black stone from his pouch it meant "no" a white one meant "yes". There are some Jewish mystics who may think otherwise, but mainline Judaism and Christianity rejects such claims...
Actually the words "urim and thummim" literally mean "lights and perfections." The article posted gives much evidence that the urim and thummim were in fact illuminating objects. I dont know if they are the same objects carried by Noah, or by the Jaredites, but it is an interesting observation.

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Post by Gman »

Sargon wrote:When we remember that we believe in stories about the sea being divided, about the sun and moon stopping in the skies, about a tower that reaches to heaven, about a flood that covered the earth, about a man who died and came back to life 3 days later....these stories dont seem so spectacular.
And many of those explanations can be explained through natural processes.. Don't forget that the Bible is an middle-eastern book. There are many figures of speech, idioms and orientalisms used in the Bible. As an example the talking snake in the Garden of Eden. It wasn't talking about a real snake, it was a figure of speech used to describe satan.. Unfortunately many in the west took these words to be literal.. And made things into fairly tales.. Like I said, the BoM takes these things to the next level..
Do you have proof of that? Or is it that the earliest evidence you know for them dates to the 17th century? Actually, there are some who believe that Noah's ship was more submarine like that ship-like.
I sure do have proof of this... A far ancestor for a submarine is probably a 17th century Ukrainian Cossack riverboat called chaika (gull) that was used underwater for reconnaissance and infiltration missions. As for Noah's ship, it was nothing like a submarine... It was more like a big floating box... There is a lot of proof too that it had ventilation windows at the top. How else were they to breath?
Actually the words "urim and thummim" literally mean "lights and perfections." The article posted gives much evidence that the urim and thummim were in fact illuminating objects. I dont know if they are the same objects carried by Noah, or by the Jaredites, but it is an interesting observation.
If you do more history on this actually the words "urim and thummim" literally means "revelation and truth"... They were not glowing stones but were more like black and white stones or gems used for casting lots.. Not magical rocks.. Nowhere in the Bible does it ever say that Noah had them in his ark for fog lights... I'm sorry this just doesn't make any sense...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
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Gman
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Post by Gman »

Sargon wrote:The Book of Mormon was written mainly by a lineage of prophets over a span of 1000 years. Their exact geographical residence is not known, though there are a few strong theories. When Joseph Smith translated the BoM the saints of the time(and Smith) believed that setting was the entire American continent, north and south. Joseph was not a scholar nor a historian. With the passing of years it became more apparent that that theory had too many improbabilities, and more and more now believe that the events in the BoM were confined to a much smaller region in central america. The church has no official position on the location, and never has.
Oh yes it does... Joseph Smith said that on the hill of Cumorah in the state of New York there was said to be 240 thousand people killed. Do you believe these 240 thousand people migrated from central America to upstate NY only to get killed? Where else do you think these people came from?

Source: http://www.bcmmin.org/bomarch.html
It tells of the religion practiced by a small group of meso-americans, but only that. Its purpose was not to describe in detail the practices of false religions. It does not lay out in detail the floorplans of the massive temples, because that neither was its purpose in being written. It talks about many other things though, pertaining and not pertaining to these subjects.
No, but it talks about huge cities that existed in Northern America.. Where are these cities? Where are any artifacts from these cities? How about some arrowheads from these huge battles?
I wont pretend to be an expert on this subject. What I do know, is that it is not claimed as proof, but as evidence. I have read the arguments for and against and my opinion is that it is strong evidence for the BoM.
http://nephiproject.com/on__nahom.htm
There is a lot more evidence against it... HUGE amounts.... Also if it claims to be an extension of the Bible it is FAR from it... Very far from it...
The heart cannot rejoice in what the mind rejects as false - Galileo

We learn from history that we do not learn from history - Georg Friedrich Wilhelm Hegel

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable, if anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. -Philippians 4:8
Sargon
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Post by Sargon »

Joseph Smith said that on the hill of Cumorah in the state of New York there was said to be 240 thousand people killed. Do you believe these 240 thousand people migrated from central America to upstate NY only to get killed? Where else do you think these people came from?
Again you are wrong. Allow me to tell you what the LDS church believes, ad I am a member of it. Joseph Smith and many other early church leaders certainly did call the hill from which the gold plates were taken Cumorah, but it is not recorded in any official statement that it was the same Cumorah where those battles took place. It is a common belief among LDS scholars that there are two Hill Cumorahs, one where the battles took place, and one where Joseph extracted the plates.
No, but it talks about huge cities that existed in Northern America.. Where are these cities? Where are any artifacts from these cities? How about some arrowheads from these huge battles?
Again a common anti-mormon misunderstanding. The Book of Mormon NEVER says anything about North America. It never says anything about South America, or Central America. It only uses the names that the ancients used, long long before Columbus ever set foot here. They mention many lands, cities, rivers, hills, and other geographical places, but those were names given thousands of years ago and in languages that are not known. We simply do not know where they are.
However, as the years go by more and more is being discovered that has become very strong archaelogical evidence for the veracity of the Book of Mormon. The amount of evidence is so great that it is not expedient to post it here. If the Book of Mormon were false, you would expect it to be the exact opposite, that over the years more evidence would be found against the Book of Mormon. The only things that have changed are the anti-mormon tactics.

If you are truly interested here are some sites that will show you exactly what I mean.
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai024.html

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publica ... om&cat=bom
There is a lot more evidence against it... HUGE amounts.... Also if it claims to be an extension of the Bible it is FAR from it... Very far from it...
If you have browsed through the small sample I gave you, you will have seen that this simply is not correct.

Sargon
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Post by Fortigurn »

Sargon, how can you possibly claim historical accuracy and archaeological support for the Book of Mormon, if you can't even tell which areas of land it's talking about?
Again you are wrong. Allow me to tell you what the LDS church believes, ad I am a member of it. Joseph Smith and many other early church leaders certainly did call the hill from which the gold plates were taken Cumorah, but it is not recorded in any official statement that it was the same Cumorah where those battles took place. It is a common belief among LDS scholars that there are two Hill Cumorahs, one where the battles took place, and one where Joseph extracted the plates.
I would like to see quotes from Joseph Smith indicating that he was referring to the Cumorah which is not in New York. I would like to see quotes from the early Mormon leaders which distinguish between two sites called 'Cumorah'.

This sounds suspiciously like revisionism.
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Post by Fortigurn »

Sargon, is this an accurate statement or not?
The Book of Mormon teaches that one small group of people came in a boat apparently across the Pacific from the Old World to the Americas, and apparently Mesoamerica, 600 years before Christ.
Source.
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Post by Sargon »

Sargon, how can you possibly claim historical accuracy and archaeological support for the Book of Mormon, if you can't even tell which areas of land it's talking about?
The original names and pronunciations of the Book of Mormon place-names have been long lost, probably never to be discovered. Although we obviously hope that they will be discovered. However, as research progresses more and more parallels are found between ancient Meso-American life and the descriptions found in the Book of Mormon, things that Joseph Smith nor anyone from his era could not have possible known. For a greater understanding I refer you to this article, I just read it last night.
http://www.farms.byu.edu/display.php?ta ... V3LnBocA==
I would like to see quotes from Joseph Smith indicating that he was referring to the Cumorah which is not in New York. I would like to see quotes from the early Mormon leaders which distinguish between two sites called 'Cumorah'.
This controversy is outlined in the article above. But basically what it comes down to is that Sidney Rigdon, not Joseph Smith was the first to call the Hill in New York Cumorah, and the name stuck. The book of Mormon itself however specifically states that the plates were not buried in the hill Cumorah. What is important is what the Book of Mormon actually teaches, not what early interpretations of it were. If Joseph Smith believed the original Hill Cumorah to be the very one from which he took the plates, he would have been contradicting the text of the Book of Mormon. This is actually a testimony to the fact that Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon, but merely translated it. Had he been the author in an attempt to deceive he surely would have been more careful. However, no evidence suggests that Joseph Smith actually believed the hill Cumorah in New York to be the same hill on which many battles were fought in the Book of Mormon.
Sargon, is this an accurate statement or not?

Quote:
The Book of Mormon teaches that one small group of people came in a boat apparently across the Pacific from the Old World to the Americas, and apparently Mesoamerica, 600 years before Christ.

Yes, if understood properly. The book of Mormon does not specifically mention the "Pacific" ocean, nor the word "America", nor "MesoAmerica". But it does tell the story of a group of people traveling across the ocean landing somewhere on the American continent.

Sargon
Fortigurn
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Post by Fortigurn »

Sargon wrote:
Sargon, how can you possibly claim historical accuracy and archaeological support for the Book of Mormon, if you can't even tell which areas of land it's talking about?
The original names and pronunciations of the Book of Mormon place-names have been long lost, probably never to be discovered. Although we obviously hope that they will be discovered.
So I ask again, how can you possibly claim historical accuracy and archaeological support for the Book of Mormon, when you cannot even tell what the original Book of Mormon place names refer to?
However, as research progresses more and more parallels are found between ancient Meso-American life and the descriptions found in the Book of Mormon, things that Joseph Smith nor anyone from his era could not have possible known.
I note the shift to Meso-America, rather than North America. I am not aware that Joseph Smith 'nor anyone from his era' said anything about the Book of Mormon and Meso-America. Can you provide statements from Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon which refer to Meso-America?
For a greater understanding I refer you to this article, I just read it last night.
http://www.farms.byu.edu/display.php?ta ... V3LnBocA==
I read it, and it says:

* Only about 55% of the sites referred to by name in the Bible have been identified, and only 36 with certainty, so therefore it's not big deal that none of the sites referred to by name in the Book of Mormon have been identified at all

I hope we can all see the flaws in that argument.

* Biblical names were preserved largely through the continuity of toponyms through linguistic adoption, but linguistic adoption didn't take place to the same extent in the Americas, explaining why we've lost the identity of the sites mentioned in the Book of Mormon

The problem with this is that the Book of Mormon supposedly had an inspired translator, and if he wasn't able to correctly translate these toponyms, then he cannot have been very inspired. An inspired translator doesn't need to rely on linguistic transmission to translate the ttext, he's inspired.

* The LDS Church has never taken an official position on the geography of the Book of Mormon, so it's a straw man of anti-Mormons to claim that the geography of the Book of Mormon does not match the Americas

This is a particularly disingenous argument, because it is clear from the history of the LDS Church that the Church has indeed defended for over a century the foundation premise that the Book of Mormon describes the geography of the Americas (specifically North America), together with historical details of the events which took place there within a given time frame.

The fact that there have been competing efforts to defend this fundamental premise within the LDS Church does not change the fact that the fundamental premise has always been taught and vigorously defended. In fact it remains vigorously defended to this day, as we can see from your posts and the links you provide.

If the LDS Church really had no official position on this issue, we wouldn't see page after page of LDS apologists doing their best to try and reconcile the Book of Mormon history and geography with that of North America, Meso-America, South America, Canada, or anywhere they can think of in that part of the world which might provide some kind of slender reed on which to rest the fundamental premise of the LDS Church - that the Book of Mormon describes the geography of the Americas (specifically North America), together with historical details of the events which took place there within a given time frame.

This controversy is outlined in the article above. But basically what it comes down to is that Sidney Rigdon, not Joseph Smith was the first to call the Hill in New York Cumorah, and the name stuck. The book of Mormon itself however specifically states that the plates were not buried in the hill Cumorah.
Unfortunately all this proves is that the allegedly Spirit led and God annointed leaders of the LDS Church were unable to interpret their own holy write correctly.
What is important is what the Book of Mormon actually teaches, not what early interpretations of it were.
On the contrary, both are extremely important, given that these early interpretations were taught as truth by allegedly Spirit led and God annointed leaders of the LDS Church.
If Joseph Smith believed the original Hill Cumorah to be the very one from which he took the plates, he would have been contradicting the text of the Book of Mormon.
This would not surprise me in the least.
This is actually a testimony to the fact that Joseph Smith did not write the Book of Mormon, but merely translated it. Had he been the author in an attempt to deceive he surely would have been more careful.
Or perhaps, having written (or plagiarized, as we should say), such a large work he simply forgot what was in it.
Yes, if understood properly. The book of Mormon does not specifically mention the "Pacific" ocean, nor the word "America", nor "MesoAmerica". But it does tell the story of a group of people traveling across the ocean landing somewhere on the American continent.
But where? And why is it that for decades the LDS Church has not said 'somewhere in the American continent', but has insisted dogmatically that they landed in North America?
Sargon
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Post by Sargon »

Time limits me to but a few comments.
So I ask again, how can you possibly claim historical accuracy and archaeological support for the Book of Mormon, when you cannot even tell what the original Book of Mormon place names refer to?
The answer to this must be given after responding to your other questions.
I note the shift to Meso-America, rather than North America. I am not aware that Joseph Smith 'nor anyone from his era' said anything about the Book of Mormon and Meso-America. Can you provide statements from Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon which refer to Meso-America?
Yes, it was in the article had you read it carefully. There was a book about Ancient Central America published about 12 years after the Book of Mormon, to which Joseph Smith is attributed a statement that connects the two. Search the article, you will find it.
The problem with this is that the Book of Mormon supposedly had an inspired translator, and if he wasn't able to correctly translate these toponyms, then he cannot have been very inspired. An inspired translator doesn't need to rely on linguistic transmission to translate the ttext, he's inspired.
As you said, Joseph was an inspired translator, not God. He simply translated the names given by ancient americans in the Book of Mormon to the cities and places in the Book of Mormon. The record contained no information about what the names of those places were called by later civilazations. He did correctly translate the names, although we can't scientifically prove he did for the very reason we have no knowledge of original names for other cities suffering from the same linguistic complications.
This is a particularly disingenous argument, because it is clear from the history of the LDS Church that the Church has indeed defended for over a century the foundation premise that the Book of Mormon describes the geography of the Americas (specifically North America), together with historical details of the events which took place there within a given time frame.
Yes, we of course officially espouse the idea that events happened on the American Continent, instead of in asia or africa. But aside from that we have no official position on which part of the continent, North, South, or Central. For what reason do you claim that the church officially defends North America specifically as the habitation of BoM peoples? Because a selected generation mostly believed it? Or because it is an easy straw man?
Unfortunately all this proves is that the allegedly Spirit led and God annointed leaders of the LDS Church were unable to interpret their own holy write correctly.
Again a false conclusion. The allegedly Spirit led leaders of the church could indeed interpret the teachings of the holy writ given to them. It was not their own words in the Book of Mormon, but those of the ancients. God's prophets are not required to be scientists, or philosophers, but to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented to them. This is all that was required of Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders. Their ideas about the physical locations of places in the bible should not be held to a higher standard than the multitude of confliciting views about geographical settings of biblical places.
But where? And why is it that for decades the LDS Church has not said 'somewhere in the American continent', but has insisted dogmatically that they landed in North America?
I reject this assertion. The church has not insisted dogmatically on any particular place on the American Continent, North or South. This is simply not true. What is true is that many opinions have been held by leaders of the church, just as Peter had differing opinions from Paul.

Gotta run.

Sargon
Let us not confuse what science reveals, with what we interpret science to reveal, and what we want science to reveal.
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Post by Fortigurn »

Sargon wrote:Yes, it was in the article had you read it carefully. There was a book about Ancient Central America published about 12 years after the Book of Mormon, to which Joseph Smith is attributed a statement that connects the two. Search the article, you will find it.
That did not actually give me what I asked for. I asked for statements from Joseph Smith to that effect, not a statement attributed to Joseph Smith. Mormon apologists these days are quick to abandon various statements earlier attributed to Joseph Smith, so I don't want to see you presenting any 'attributed' statements to him.
As you said, Joseph was an inspired translator, not God. He simply translated the names given by ancient americans in the Book of Mormon to the cities and places in the Book of Mormon. The record contained no information about what the names of those places were called by later civilazations. He did correctly translate the names, although we can't scientifically prove he did for the very reason we have no knowledge of original names for other cities suffering from the same linguistic complications.
What you are saying is that he did not translate the names, he merely transliterated them. This means that he was not an inspired translater.

How can you claim that 'He did correctly translate the names', after you've told me that all he did was transliterate them, and after you've told me that 'we can't scientifically prove he did'?
Yes, we of course officially espouse the idea that events happened on the American Continent, instead of in asia or africa. But aside from that we have no official position on which part of the continent, North, South, or Central. For what reason do you claim that the church officially defends North America specifically as the habitation of BoM peoples? Because a selected generation mostly believed it? Or because it is an easy straw man?
No, because it has been taught for over a hundred years by thousands of Mormon missionaries, believed and professed without correction by millions of mormons, and defended in hundreds of thousands of pages of Mormon literature.
Again a false conclusion. The allegedly Spirit led leaders of the church could indeed interpret the teachings of the holy writ given to them. It was not their own words in the Book of Mormon, but those of the ancients. God's prophets are not required to be scientists, or philosophers, but to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ as presented to them. This is all that was required of Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders. Their ideas about the physical locations of places in the bible should not be held to a higher standard than the multitude of confliciting views about geographical settings of biblical places.
Again you are missing the point. You are telling me that these men could interpret the teachings of the Holy Writ, but were unable to interpret them. This is a complete contradiction.
I reject this assertion. The church has not insisted dogmatically on any particular place on the American Continent, North or South. This is simply not true. What is true is that many opinions have been held by leaders of the church, just as Peter had differing opinions from Paul.
That is a gross mischaracterization of the history. It is nothing short of revisionism. The truth is here.
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Post by Sargon »

Fortigurn,
You simply are wrong on this one. You do not understand the Book of Mormon, and are not familiar with LDS history. You have repeatedly stated what you consider fact, but with no examples of proof.
Check this out, it might enlighten you a bit.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme11.shtml

There is no need to prove what Joseph Smith thought about the location of the events in the BoM. There is evidence, statements attributed to him which could be incorrect but equally could be completely accurate. There are recorded statements made by his contemporaries who believed the events occured in Meso-America, which was part of your original question. The Book of Mormon is full of evidence that it is an ancient document, written in the Americas. You only have to read it.
What you are saying is that he did not translate the names, he merely transliterated them. This means that he was not an inspired translater.
No, you have failed to understand. Maybe I failed to properly explain. There are many names that are surely transliterated, but again this was done by inspiration. It was from a language that noone knew, especially not Joseph Smith. If you do a bit of research you will find that almost everyname in the Book of Mormon has been traced back to semitic roots, something impossible for Joseph Smith to have done. However, not all the names were transliterations. "The Land of Desolation", The Land Northward, Bountiful, and others.
No, because it has been taught for over a hundred years by thousands of Mormon missionaries, believed and professed without correction by millions of mormons, and defended in hundreds of thousands of pages of Mormon literature
I simply disagree with this. It is not seen in history. It is seen that many, and maybe most, believed that the events occured on a hemispherical setting, but no evidence suggests that you are correct in stating that the LDS church has consistently believed that the events all happened on the N. American half. A basic superficial reading of the BoM does not support that. Maybe you'd know that if you'd read it.
Again you are missing the point. You are telling me that these men could interpret the teachings of the Holy Writ, but were unable to interpret them. This is a complete contradiction.
No, you are missing my point. Joseph Smith simply interpreted the words on the plate. He didnt do much else. His task after that as a prophet was to interpret and preach the doctrines, not the science.
Quote:
I reject this assertion. The church has not insisted dogmatically on any particular place on the American Continent, North or South. This is simply not true. What is true is that many opinions have been held by leaders of the church, just as Peter had differing opinions from Paul.


That is a gross mischaracterization of the history. It is nothing short of revisionism. The truth is here.
I have been a member of the church for 22 years, approximately 1/8 of the time that the LDS church has been in existence. I have always heard it taught(not officially by the church) that the events occured in MesoAmerica, and it is a fact of history that that perspective was not introduced merely 22 years ago.

Sargon
Let us not confuse what science reveals, with what we interpret science to reveal, and what we want science to reveal.
Fortigurn
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Post by Fortigurn »

Sargon wrote:Fortigurn,
You simply are wrong on this one. You do not understand the Book of Mormon, and are not familiar with LDS history. You have repeatedly stated what you consider fact, but with no examples of proof.
On the contrary, I gave you an entire webpage of proof.
Check this out, it might enlighten you a bit.
http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme11.shtml
It helpfully confirmed what I have been saying:
Many early leaders of the Church simply assumed that the Book of Mormon dealt with all of the Americas and all of the ancestors of the Indians.

When information about Mesoamerica became available in the 1840s, there was keen interest in Mesoamerica as the possible location of the Book of Mormon, as we will see below, but this interest faded as the Church faced more serious issues: the martyrdom of Joseph, crossing the plains, struggling for survival against pressures from the US government, etc.

It was not until well into this century that the issue of Book of Mormon geography became a topic for serious study, and then many scholars and thinkers realized that old assumptions needed to be revisited. The result has been an increasing consensus for a limited geography in Mesoamerica.
It's clear that this 'Meso-America' position is a novelty in the history of your church.
There is no need to prove what Joseph Smith thought about the location of the events in the BoM.
Yes there is, because you have claimed that he accurately described Meso-America.
There is evidence, statements attributed to him which could be incorrect but equally could be completely accurate.
I'm not interested in what might be accurate, I'm only interested in the genuine quotes. I'd like to see them soon please.
There are recorded statements made by his contemporaries who believed the events occured in Meso-America, which was part of your original question.
I'm afraid this does not actually address my original question (I asked for quotes specifically from Joseph Smith and the LDS leadership teaching that Meso-America was the site described in the Book of Mormon). There is abundant evidence that North America was taught as the location of the events of the Book of Mormon by the LDS leadership.

A few statements here and there by other individuals with private opinions differing from that taught dominantly by the leadership, are irrelevant. Your own link made it clear that the North America view was the view which was taught.
The Book of Mormon is full of evidence that it is an ancient document, written in the Americas. You only have to read it.
I have read a lot of it. I saw no reference to Meso-America, and no evidence that it was an ancient document written in the Americas.
There are many names that are surely transliterated, but again this was done by inspiration. It was from a language that noone knew, especially not Joseph Smith.
This is absurd. Transliteration is used when a translation is not possible. Translation is always preferable to transliteration. If there are transliterations in the Book of Mormon, then it is not an inspired translation.
If you do a bit of research you will find that almost everyname in the Book of Mormon has been traced back to semitic roots, something impossible for Joseph Smith to have done.
How is that possible when the language is not known? All you have is the English.
However, not all the names were transliterations. "The Land of Desolation", The Land Northward, Bountiful, and others.
If the book had been an inspired translation, none of the names would have been transliterations.
No, because it has been taught for over a hundred years by thousands of Mormon missionaries, believed and professed without correction by millions of mormons, and defended in hundreds of thousands of pages of Mormon literature
I simply disagree with this. It is not seen in history.
I am afraid it is seen in history:
Since the days of Joseph Smith most Saints believed that the Book of Mormon took place across the entire expanse of North and South America.

This theory—referred to as the Hemispheric Geography Theory (HGT) posits that North America is the “land northward,” that South America is the “land southward,” and that present-day Panama is the “narrow neck” of land. This is a natural interpretation of Book of Mormon geography based on a cursory reading and superficial understanding to the Book of Mormon text.

It is likely that Joseph Smith, his contemporaries, and most Saints—perhaps even most Saints today—have unquestioningly accepted this as an accurate model for Book of Mormon geography.

Related to this view is the common belief among LDS that Book of Mormon people were the founding inhabitants of all native peoples of both North and South America.

Written by Michael R. Ash for the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR), Copyright © 2004. http://www.fairlds.org
You say yourself:
It is seen that many, and maybe most, believed that the events occured on a hemispherical setting...
But then you claim:
...but no evidence suggests that you are correct in stating that the LDS church has consistently believed that the events all happened on the N. American half.
On the contrary, I gave you plenty of evidence supporting exactly that in the website linked in my previous post (which you have not discussed).
A basic superficial reading of the BoM does not support that.Maybe you'd know that if you'd read it.
Maybe Michael R. Ash of the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research hasn't read it:
Since the days of Joseph Smith most Saints believed that the Book of Mormon took place across the entire expanse of North and South America.

This theory—referred to as the Hemispheric Geography Theory (HGT) posits that North America is the “land northward,” that South America is the “land southward,” and that present-day Panama is the “narrow neck” of land.

This is a natural interpretation of Book of Mormon geography based on a cursory reading and superficial understanding to the Book of Mormon text.

Written by Michael R. Ash for the Foundation for Apologetic Information and Research (FAIR), Copyright © 2004. http://www.fairlds.org
Back to interpretation:
No, you are missing my point. Joseph Smith simply interpreted the words on the plate. He didnt do much else. His task after that as a prophet was to interpret and preach the doctrines, not the science.
You've just told me he interpreted the words on the plate. That is not transliteration, nor translation.
I have been a member of the church for 22 years, approximately 1/8 of the time that the LDS church has been in existence. I have always heard it taught(not officially by the church) that the events occured in MesoAmerica, and it is a fact of history that that perspective was not introduced merely 22 years ago.
Since it has been only in the last 30 years that the new ideas of where the events of the Book of Mormon took place have emerged, this does not surprise me.

To say that 'that perspective was not introduced merely 22 years ago' is highly disingenous. It was indeed introduced in the 19th century, but it was not taken up or supported by the LDS church, which threw its weight behind the 'North and South America' view.

That is precisely why there is such a massive weight of apologetic material produced by your church over the last century defending exactly that proposition.
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