Why?

[Santa]

do you consider it a THREAT when a tells their child not to play in the street or they will get hit by a car, Santa? There is no difference in what the Bible says about Hell. It is simply informing you of what happens if you "play in the street" (that is, reject God).

Secondly, you can scream "IT'S SIMPLE" all you want, but that doesn't make your point any more rational. Your statement is self-defeating, which makes it irrational. That's not spin, Santa. That is just you not understanding what you are really asking.

Question: on what basis do you think it is wrong for God to condemn people to Hell (even those who have never heard)?

Well, for starters, we know that the mother and the car on the road exists.
It's not the best analogy to use in relation to god.
How can I reject something I'm not aware of?

Question: on what basis do you think it's OK for god to condemn people to hell? Simply that god is all-knowing and that you should just have faith in his decision?

Pfft. I'll never believe in a god who finds it's ok to condemn people to hell based on the fact they haven't 'accepted' some guy, in a book, based on the fact they were skeptical or too young to understand. It's not fair.

If you deny that I don't think there's any point arguing with you any further.

[Santa]

This is why religion will always be around. The concept of an all-knowing and powerful god means whenever someone's faith is threatened, they can say something like "oh but how do you know that, only god does".

But what I believe is that if god really wanted us to be saved, he wouldn't have made it so difficult. I'm not saying he has to practically prove his existence, but if the bible overall seemed realistic then I'm sure I'd have no trouble leaving the rest to faith, if I wanted to.

[Santa]

And our ability to determine what's fair and not fair must've come from god, right? So if me believing it is wrong for god to send anyone to hell over such a petty thing - like not believing a book that claims to be the word of god - means I came to that conclusion based on what I've been given. He's not making it very easy, is he? If god believes it's fair to do what I think is unfair, like you say, then he sure is making things difficult for me isn't he!? How does he expect us to come to a reasonable conclusion if we're not even equipped with the same views on fairness as he is? No true god would torture his people over something so stupid. What a great guy.

[Jac3510]

[/quote]Well, for starters, we know that the mother and the car on the road exists.
It's not the best analogy to use in relation to god.
How can I reject something I'm not aware of?[/quote]
How else can you be made aware of Hell without God telling you about it?

Question: on what basis do you think it's OK for god to condemn people to hell? Simply that god is all-knowing and that you should just have faith in his decision?

Because all people are evil.

Pfft. I'll never believe in a god who finds it's ok to condemn people to hell based on the fact they haven't 'accepted' some guy, in a book, based on the fact they were skeptical or too young to understand. It's not fair.

If you deny that I don't think there's any point arguing with you any further.

"It's not fair" - so you are just being irrational. And if you deny that, there is no point arguing with you any further.

There is no such thing as "fair" or "justice" if God doesn't exist, Santa. There is only personal opinion. Let's just suppose for one second that God really doesn't have any reason to condemn people to Hell than because "they haven't 'accepted' some guy, in a book, based on the fact that they were skeptical or too young to understand." You say it isn't fair. God says it is.

What makes you right? Says who. You? Why should God care what YOU think is fair? What makes YOU right and God wrong? Where do you think you got that idea of "fair" from in the first place?

You can be angry at God all you want, but that just gives Him another reason to condemn you. Why would He want to be with someone for all of eternity who hates Him? I wouldn't. I don't gather you would, either.

Of course, all this is predicated on the idea that God has 'no other reason.' Are you so arrogant as to think that just because YOU can't think of another reason then there must not be one?

The REASON you go to Hell is that you are a fundamentally evil person, and that from that same book that told you that if you don't trust Christ for your salvation then you would be condemned. You don't think you are that evil. Fine. You have a different appraisal of yourself than God does. But then again, if you read How to Win Friends and Influence People, you'll find that the infamous "Two Gun" Crowley thought he was a pretty good guy, too. After he murdered a cop at point blank range, he had the audacity to say, "Under my coat is a weary heart, but a kind one--one that would do nobody any harm." Likewise, Al Capone actually said, "I have spent the best years of my life giving people the lighter pleasures, helping them have a good time, and all I get is abuse, the existence of a hunted man."

You may not think you are that bad, Santa, but you are. God's condemnation is only unjust if we don't deserve it. In fact, we do. We deserve it an then some more. So your problem isn't a rational one. It is an emotional one. It's like going to the doctor and being told that you have cancer, and rather than asking for the right treatment, you call him evil for wanting to kill you.

So let me demonstrate this to you with a few simple questions. Tell me where you disagree:

1. Do you agree that justice is good?
2. Would a perfectly good being not be perfectly just?
3. Is it not unjust to allow someone to go unpunished for crimes of which they are guilty?
4. Are you perfect?
5. Since you are not perfect, if God is perfectly just, is He not obligated to punish you in some way?
6. If He did not punish you, would He not prove Himself to be unjust, and thus not good?
7. Does justice not require that the punishment fit the crime?
8. If God is an infinite being, then is His offensive at your crimes not infinite? (Put differently, how could an infinite God be finitely offended?)
9. If the punishment must fit the crime, and the crime is infinite, then to what extent must the punishment be?
10. What would you call an infinite punishment other than Hell?

So, feel free to try to justify yourself, Santa. YOU have been made aware of your predicament. God says you are evil, but despite your being evil, He has offered to save you anyway. You are stuck in the middle of the road. He is asking if you want Him to save you. If you say no, you are going to be hit by the car. If you say yes, He is more than willing to save you. Your rejection of His offer says more about your own pride than it does about God's "unfairness."

[Santa]

How else can you be made aware of Hell without God telling you about it?

I was referring to god. I'm not aware he exists. Yes, the bible is there, but who's to say it's the word of god? Oh, the bible says so? That doesn't make it true.

Because all people are evil.

LOL - evil hey?

OK, we might have petty fights, we might make a few mistakes. But the only true evil is those who murder, etc. The rest of us shouldn't need saving based on stupid little things. I'm not evil for stealing a toy car when I was 3.

"It's not fair" - so you are just being irrational. And if you deny that, there is no point arguing with you any further.

Irrational???? You're being irrational. I'm being realistic. You can't dismiss what I'm saying simply because you think "god's so great we cannot comprehend his views on fairness". As. If.

Like I said, if god wanted us to be able to come to a reasonable conclusion, he wouldn't have given us such differing views on fairness. He's pretty much handicapped us, hasn't he?

[Santa]

You can be angry at God all you want, but that just gives Him another reason to condemn you. Why would He want to be with someone for all of eternity who hates Him? I wouldn't. I don't gather you would, either.

Oh for g..... but he's also keeping out people like me, who DON'T hate him, we just don't accept him due to the fact we cannot decide whether or not he exists! And I choose to believe he doesn't, he'd be a lot more rational if he existed.

I take it you're a hardcore believer, so I don't expect you to look at it from this view point.

You say fairness can't exist without god, and that it'd be personal opinion if that was the case. What crap, sorry. We judge what is fair based on a number of factors. If god expects people so inferior to him to come to the same conclusions as he does when we obviously have different views on fairness to him, then that's unfair. Don't deny it.


Your blog's interesting btw.
Arguments like this don't prove god's existence:

1. If God does not exist, rational thought is impossible;
2. But rational thought is possible;
3. Therefore, God exists.

So, rational thought is possible for us?
Therefore god exists?

Well, if fairness is just an opinion, then it doesn't exist.
Therefore, god does not exist.


No wonder some believers can't see things from an outsiders point of view. Day by day, you're so involved in this stuff, that nothing's going to convince you to come out of it. You have blogs, you post on forums regularly with other like minded people, that there's no way you can be objective about it.

[Jac3510]

Mkay, Santa.

BTW, I also have magical powers. I can predict the future. Watch: I predict you won't have a very long career here at G&S!

I can also click the roll eyes emoticon, too. Would that make my points any more forceful? I mean, you seem to find them useful . . . nah, doubt it. They don't have a lot of impact on me, so I doubt they'll have a lot of impact on you, either.

Later, dudez.

[Santa]

So you're saying I'm going to be banned for have a different opinion to you?
lol, that'd just go to show how close-minded you are.

The emoticons are there for a reason - to express yourself. But don't worry, I'm sure I'll pay the price in hell for rolling my eyes on the internet.

I hope you see the light some day. (not god's)

[zoegirl]

SAnta,

You came *here*, Jac is dialoguing with you and has presented some very valid discussion points. To simply return with

No wonder some believers can't see things from an outsiders point of view. Day by day, you're so involved in this stuff, that nothing's going to convince you to come out of it. You have blogs, you post on forums regularly with other like minded people, that there's no way you can be objective about it.

isn't really impressive as far as debating goes. How about dealing with the rest of his posts? To simply repeat over an d over again that God isn't fair hasn't addressed the issue. You declare that you aren't evil.

So you mean that you have never had an angry thought? A jealous thought? A hateful thought? Said something rude? Said something to hurt someone?

Wished someone harm? Lusted? Been cruel to someone? lied to someone? Gone back on your word?

So you mean that you have, on every occasion that warranted it, been nice, thoughtful, loving, true to your word? cared for everyone that needed caring?

See, the big thing is that we always seem to compare ourselves to the worst thing we can think of....a murderer, a rapist, a thief. And that makes most people think "I'm not evil....I'm not really so bad...I give occasionally....I'm a pretty nice guy....I haven't done this or that" but the issue is one with the heart and it is about or view of ourselves, selfish...

I suggest that you read through the board guidelines to see if you realize the purpose of this board. Using emoticons certainly wouldn't get your banned....(wouldn't sway anyone with your debating skills, but use them all you want)

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... f=3&t=2517

[cslewislover]

You can be angry at God all you want, but that just gives Him another reason to condemn you. Why would He want to be with someone for all of eternity who hates Him? I wouldn't. I don't gather you would, either.

Oh for g..... but he's also keeping out people like me, who DON'T hate him, we just don't accept him due to the fact we cannot decide whether or not he exists! And I choose to believe he doesn't, he'd be a lot more rational if he existed.

I can't see love, but I know it exists. God testifies about Himself through all of creation, and if you refuse to see Him in it, that is your own choice. And who said He's keeping you out? Are you dead yet? He might keep you around until you're 106, until you accept Him; who knows. But there you are in your last line, saying you CHOOSE to believe he doesn't exist. If He chose to stop being concerned about you, should you be surprised?

I take it you're a hardcore believer, so I don't expect you to look at it from this view point.

There are some here who have not always been "hardcore" believers. I mentioned in my post earlier that I came to faith later. I was a mature adult. But you did not respond to my post. Many here have had the same questions and concerns you did. Why don't you take a look at the site more, instead of being interested in your thread only? If you really want to know some things, start looking around.

No wonder some believers can't see things from an outsiders point of view. Day by day, you're so involved in this stuff, that nothing's going to convince you to come out of it. You have blogs, you post on forums regularly with other like minded people, that there's no way you can be objective about it.

What I already wrote applies to this. I for one know I don't understand everything in the bible and I certainly don't understand God fully. No one does. If God made everything, and everything is held together through Christ, how can I possibly understand that? It's beyond the human mind to comprehend. Why isn't God rational? Because you say so? I bet my child thinks I'm not rational at times too, if I don't answer a question in a way that he can understand, or I don't give him what he wants when he wants it. Sometimes, as a parent, I don't tell my child something on purpose, for various reasons (he isn't ready for it, he doesn't have enough background knowledge or experience, etc.), or I don't give him what he wants, also for various reasons.

Besides brains, we have free will. We chose to rebel. Yet God wants us back. The whole NT is a love story. It's about love and redemption. How rational is it that the maker of the universe wants to love me? It seems like, rationally, He could just make something "better." Are these desires measureable by science? But if you're still in the place where you don't even know if you think God exists or not (but above you said you choose not to believe in Him, so one wonders why you're here), then I suggest that book that I referenced in my previous post. The one by Flew. And I even bought it yesterday! Now if I only take the time to read it.

From the back cover: "In There Is a God, one of the world's preeminent atheists discloses how his commitment to 'follow the argument wherever it leads' led him to a belief in God as Creator. This is a compelling and refreshingly open-minded argument that will forever change the atheism debate."

[Santa]

How about dealing with the rest of his posts? To simply repeat over an d over again that God isn't fair hasn't addressed the issue. You declare that you aren't evil.

Many of my posts here haven't been addressed either. Look, I can't go any further into things until I get my head around why a god would even use such a lousy (IMO) method to judge people. It's flawed beyond anything.

1. The advantages: people who live longer have more time to 'find' god.
2. The bible isn't convincing enough. I know it'd defeat the purpose if he made us 100% aware of his existence, but he could've done better - as silly as you think that sounds.
3. Does someone really need to be tortured for eternity, based on jealous thoughts, angry thoughts etc alone?
4. Why the big ego? I find it really weird to think we'd have to spend eternity in heaven praising god, saying how great he is, over and over again. It'd be pretty boring. He's great because he was by default. We aren't.
5. Shouldn't being truly sorry for your 'sins' once you die be enough? He'll know if you're telling the truth. However, the bible says that wouldn't matter. You have to accept him and believe in him during your time on Earth - and that's the only way to be saved. I don't find that fair, simply because some people have trouble believing in it. I mean, why should we? Because it tells us to?

Anyway, I'll try not to roll my eyes.

[Santa]

I can't see love, but I know it exists. God testifies about Himself through all of creation, and if you refuse to see Him in it, that is your own choice. And who said He's keeping you out? Are you dead yet? He might keep you around until you're 106, until you accept Him; who knows. But there you are in your last line, saying you CHOOSE to believe he doesn't exist. If He chose to stop being concerned about you, should you be surprised?

Choose might've been the wrong word to use. I've just 'decided' he can't be real, based on what I can't get my head around.

There are some here who have not always been "hardcore" believers. I mentioned in my post earlier that I came to faith later. I was a mature adult. But you did not respond to my post. Many here have had the same questions and concerns you did. Why don't you take a look at the site more, instead of being interested in your thread only? If you really want to know some things, start looking around.

And to think if you had've died before then, you would be in hell right now for not coming to the conclusion earlier.

Like I said, I have read around, but I can't even begin to consider anything in the bible as true due to what I've repeating over and over again.

[cslewislover]

And to think if you had've died before then, you would be in hell right now for not coming to the conclusion earlier.

Like I said, I have read around, but I can't even begin to consider anything in the bible as true due to what I've repeating over and over again.

I guess I don't believe that, deep down, we haven't made a choice (there is the whole age of accountability issue, sure). God would be unjust to condemn someone to hell, it seems to me, if that person truly was undecided. I do believe God knows all about me, and that He knew all about me before I was born. I believe He knows all about you, what's deep down inside, and what you will ultimately believe at the time of your death. He knows what you really believe right now.

As for your no. 4 above, I definitely think we'll be doing other things besides praising God. When we do praise God, it's because we want to, not because He has a big ego and requires it. Concerning hell, that's one of the things I don't understand fully. I trust God enough, because of what He's done in my life, however, to give him the benefit of the doubt in this matter. The descriptions of hell are different from each other, yet they are there. Whether it is because our souls are indestructible, or there's some other good reason, I accept that God knows best in keeping lovers of God separate from nonlovers.

I'd need to read more of the thread posts to answer more. But, since you keep saying you don't believe the bible is true and that you don't believe there is a God, it's hard to be motivated to both take the time to read all of that and to answer. Does that make sense?

[Santa]

I guess I don't believe that, deep down, we haven't made a choice (there is the whole age of accountability issue, sure). God would be unjust to condemn someone to hell, it seems to me, if that person truly was undecided. I do believe God knows all about me, and that He knew all about me before I was born. I believe He knows all about you, what's deep down inside, and what you will ultimately believe at the time of your death. He knows what you really believe right now.

Alright, fair enough. But people come to be who they are based on their experiences - which means all 'souls' would have to start off the same. Say a child died, they never got to 'be' somebody. How could god judge them?

It would depend what family or area you were born in to as well. Different experiences mean a different person. A thief could've been an alter boy if he had've been born into a different family and gone on to help people - get what I'm saying?

So how can someone truly be judged fairly? People do have advantages.

This continues to lead me to believe a god wouldn't operate this way.

I'd need to read more of the thread posts to answer more. But, since you keep saying you don't believe the bible is true and that you don't believe there is a God, it's hard to be motivated to both take the time to read all of that and to answer. Does that make sense?

Shouldn't your motivation be to help your god 'save' me or something? lol, seriously, I'm asking genuine questions here. I'm not denying god's existence for no reason. Read the previous pages.

[zoegirl]

How about dealing with the rest of his posts? To simply repeat over an d over again that God isn't fair hasn't addressed the issue. You declare that you aren't evil.

Many of my posts here haven't been addressed either. Look, I can't go any further into things until I get my head around why a god would even use such a lousy (IMO) method to judge people. It's flawed beyond anything.

1. The advantages: people who live longer have more time to 'find' god.
2. The bible isn't convincing enough. I know it'd defeat the purpose if he made us 100% aware of his existence, but he could've done better - as silly as you think that sounds.

You have the entire creation, A God who died for your sins, the testimony of those who witnessed Him resurrected, His word, the testimony of believers. If you haven't heard any of these, then certainly you don't want to hear.

3. Does someone really need to be tortured for eternity, based on jealous thoughts, angry thoughts etc alone?

If these aren't bad at all, then why does anger, jealousy, lust, broken promises, lies do such harm to relationships? Why are we so...hurt when others do these things??!?!? People are so funny. They proclaim that *their* lies and anger and jealousy isn't bad and then you watch realtionships and see that they are quite willing to judge other people's lies and broken promises.

Shoot, that's the biggest hypocrisy of those on reality contests. It's hilarious if it weren't so tragic to watch al of these liars and schemers who then turn on those that lie to them. we have blinders on...we see the evil around us but don't see the evil in us.

We are a race of hypocrites. When it is our own behavior, we are willing to declare that "it's not so bad"...but ask anyone who had been betrayed by a father, mother, lover, or friend and we are willing to declare judgment on them. We *know* when someone has been "evil". We know when someone has been unfair to us. Ask anyone the pain of the neglect of a parent, the cheating of a spouse (even if it's online or a sneak glance at other women), the pain.

Yes, if these things weren't so "evil", we wouldn't worry about asking forgiveness.

Yes, people are inherently given to selfishness. And the ultimate betrayal is to the righteous and Holy god of the universe. Whether or not you believe this, it is important to understand why *we* believe this. If you end up rejecting this, it would be tragic but you came here asking to understand.

We proclaim that the God of the universe is righteous by His own nature. He deserves praise...He is pure, loving, just.

To give Him praise is not "boosting His ego"...it is what is His due...simple as that...

We have, all of us, all rebelled against Him...this is seen in our sin and selfishness.

His just nature requires that all who rebel against Him to be separate from Him. Holiness cannot exist with sin. The sentence is separation from God, physically and spiritually....and despite whatever preconceived notions of torture, to be separate from Him is torture enough.

His nature is also loving, loving enough to send his own begotten Son to take upon the wrath of God, the payment for *our* sins. But we must acknowledge our nature and believe in His Son and what He did.

4. Why the big ego? I find it really weird to think we'd have to spend eternity in heaven praising god, saying how great he is, over and over again. It'd be pretty boring. He's great because he was by default. We aren't.

He is the God of the universe....He doesn't need praise because of some lacking in the ego. That is quite a human concept, sadly, and to transfer that idea is short-sighted and limiting.

5. Shouldn't being truly sorry for your 'sins' once you die be enough? He'll know if you're telling the truth.

Now, santa, this is a rather ludicrous statement. Would you say that to a murderer or a thief that "oh, your sorry...okay, I guess you don't need any consequences for you killing someone...okay, you don't have to go to jail"

Likewise, would you cheat on your significant other and then expect them to expect you back again just with a "I'm sorry?"...sadly this does happen and most times, the cheater reveals that he *wasn't sorry*.

See, to be sorry one actually has to admit that they have something they are sorry about. And that they have offended someone....and until you are ready to see God for who He is and for who you are, than you aren't truly sorry

We know that a betrayal requires a consequence...it's not justice to excuse without that payment. But Christ *has* paid for sins. But for us to declare to God that we don't need Christ and for Him to simply accept us with an I'm sorry is not just.

God is a just God, but He is a merciful God.

However, the bible says that wouldn't matter. You have to accept him and believe in him during your time on Earth - and that's the only way to be saved. I don't find that fair, simply because some people have trouble believing in it. I mean, why should we? Because it tells us to?

It's not fair to reject you when you essentially think that He doesn't deserve to be praised?!?!? Ummm....you have rejected Him...it certainly doesn't sound like you are searching very hard to find Him or listen to Him.

Anyway, I'll try not to roll my eyes.