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Re: Hell

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:46 am
by Seraph
Dead is not the same thing as Hell. The same thing happens to the saved and not saved, we all die at some point, what happens AFTER death is whats different for the saved and not saved.

Plus, I doubt that Lazarus or Moses ever went to Hell. When Jesus or God say "____ is dead" that doesn't mean "____ wasn't saved and is now in Hell"

Re: Hell

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:21 am
by BavarianWheels
Seraph wrote:Dead is not the same thing as Hell. The same thing happens to the saved and not saved, we all die at some point, what happens AFTER death is whats different for the saved and not saved.

Plus, I doubt that Lazarus or Moses ever went to Hell. When Jesus or God say "____ is dead" that doesn't mean "____ wasn't saved and is now in Hell"
Dead is dead. Hell is the place where the last death will occur. Death is an enemy... (1 Cor. 15:26)

Dead without Christ is dead, dead without hope.

Dead in Christ is dead...but alive in Christ...not REALLY alive...dead with hope (assured hope).

All who have died (whether in Christ or not) are at this point in the same place as everyone else...in the grave awaiting the call of Christ. All* will, at one point or another, be resurrected...some to life...others to everlasting death...or hell...or torment...but all will die as God has prescribed the wages of sin.

* I'm not sure about some people that may've never had the opportunity to choose God...I don't assume God's mercy on every instance, while I believe He will be merciful and Just in every instance.
NIV Ezekiel 18:4 wrote:For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son--both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.
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Re: Hell

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:40 pm
by B. W.
BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:I dare you to prove otherwise…
So it's gonna be like that from you?
You're whole argument is that those in hell will live forever in torment when Romans clearly states:
NIV Romans 6:23 wrote:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in* Christ Jesus our Lord.
I guess Paul lies.
NIV John 11:14 wrote:So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,
I guess Jesus lies too
NIV Joshua 1:2 wrote:Moses my servant is dead.
I guess the OT God also lies,
God speaks in Isaiah 55:11 saying: “…so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”

Again in Isaiah 46:9-10 the Lord speaks: “…remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose...”

Now look again at Genesis 1:26-28: “Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Is God an eternal being or not? God will keep and honor his word — will He not?

Elihu in Job 33:4 stated: “The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

God made us have a beginning and as he spoke — God honors his word because as Ecclesiastes 3:14 states: “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”

We were fashioned to live with God forever but man rebelled and fell into sin. Note the law was not written in stone back then. Humanities first parents fell away from loving God (the greatest commandment) and learned how to manipulate God's goodness for their own selfish ends manipulating God's own goodness, virtue, etc to maintain mischievousness and evil.

They both could see that the serpent still existed and thus understood they would not be annihilated into non-being for turning away from the Lord. The serpent reminded them of this very thing too when he said - "you will not surely die." Physical death came into the world because of sin as God said it would in chapter two. God honors and keeps his word. If Adam and Eve could or would be blasted into absolute non-being then how could God keep his word spoken in Genesis 1:26-28 and remain true to his own character and nature revealed because he spoke?

Now Barvarian Wheels, I mentioned before that if one implies that the word translated 'death' in the bible to mean only absolute non-existence then how could Jesus have tasted death for all humanity? Your definition would have to apply to all cases the word 'death' is used in the bible in total disregard for varied the nuances of the word's usage.

Accordingly to your doctrine, this would have to mean that Jesus had to be made non-existent to taste death for all. You would have to place that definition of the word 'death' used in the bible to apply to Jesus in order to fill the words God spoke in Isaiah 53 and scriptures above.

Regarding Luke 16 account of Lazarus: You claim it is a mere story however you miss the point that Jesus conveyed spiritual and factual truths of thing he knows personally about; therefore, the story Jesus relays in Luke 16:19-31 contains truth of an actual place and event in order for it not to be a lie. This you fail to believe in order to support doctrine of men.

Even old Balaam said in Numbers 23:19: “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”

For anyone to claim Jesus was not conveying truth, real honest truth, in all his parables and then reads this in Luke 16:19: "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.” Is failing to see that when Jesus says, there was — means there was….

Truth is truth.
Bavarian Wheels wrote: You're asking me if abortion is right or wrong and then to judge God from a finite mind...when you've been arguing this "finite vs. infinite"? LOL
Bavarian Wheels, it is you and you interpretation of scripture that is judging "finite vs. infinite' as evidence by your rejection of the truth Jesus speaks of in Luke 16:19-31 and Matthew 25: 41, 46 in exchange for man's idea of no-lasting recompense simply because man rejects this thought based solely on man's concept of eternal damnation as personally repugnant.

How does God view things? If abortion is evil, which it is, and wrong, which it is because it robs, destroys, and kills life then which standard are we to follow?

If God blast one off into eternal absolute non-existence then that would make him the cosmic abortionist who kills, robs, and destroys. This contradicts:

John 10:10, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

John 8:43-47, “ Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Matthew 22:32-33, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.”

Jesus said that God of the living and not the dead and you accuse me of judging God from a finite mind? Sorry you feel that way but it is not me judging from a finite mind here. I am not the one explaining away the clear teachings of Christ and the Bible to support a notion of absolute non-existence to appease man's bias.
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Re: Hell

Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:01 pm
by BavarianWheels
B. W. wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:I dare you to prove otherwise…
So it's gonna be like that from you?
You're whole argument is that those in hell will live forever in torment when Romans clearly states:
NIV Romans 6:23 wrote:For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in* Christ Jesus our Lord.
I guess Paul lies.
NIV John 11:14 wrote:So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead,
I guess Jesus lies too
NIV Joshua 1:2 wrote:Moses my servant is dead.
I guess the OT God also lies,
God speaks in Isaiah 55:11 saying: “…so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.”

Again in Isaiah 46:9-10 the Lord speaks: “…remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, 10 declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose...”

Now look again at Genesis 1:26-28: “Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

Is God an eternal being or not? God will keep and honor his word — will He not?

Elihu in Job 33:4 stated: “The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

God made us have a beginning and as he spoke — God honors his word because as Ecclesiastes 3:14 states: “I perceived that whatever God does endures forever; nothing can be added to it, nor anything taken from it. God has done it, so that people fear before him.”

We were fashioned to live with God forever but man rebelled and fell into sin. Note the law was not written in stone back then. Humanities first parents fell away from loving God (the greatest commandment) and learned how to manipulate God's goodness for their own selfish ends manipulating God's own goodness, virtue, etc to maintain mischievousness and evil.

They both could see that the serpent still existed and thus understood they would not be annihilated into non-being for turning away from the Lord. The serpent reminded them of this very thing too when he said - "you will not surely die." Physical death came into the world because of sin as God said. God honors and keeps his word. If Adam and Eve would be blasted into absolute non-being then how could God keep his word spoken in Genesis 1:26-28?

Now Barvarian Wheels, I mentioned before that if one implies that the word translated 'death' in the bible to mean only absolute non-existence then how could Jesus have tasted death for all humanity? Your definition would have to apply to all cases the word 'death' is used in the bible in total disregard for varied the nuances of the word's usage.

Accordingly to your doctrine, this would have to mean that Jesus had to be made non-existent to taste death for all. You would have to place that definition of the word 'death' used in the bible to apply to Jesus in order to fill the words God spoke in Isaiah 53 and scriptures above.

Regarding Luke 16 account of Lazarus: You claim it is a mere story however you miss the point that Jesus conveyed spiritual and factual truths of thing he knows personally about; therefore, the story Jesus relays in Luke 16:19-31 contains truth of an actual place and event in order for it not to be a lie. This you fail to believe in order to support doctrine of men.

Even old Balaam said in Numbers 23:19: “God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?”

For anyone to claim Jesus was not conveying truth, real honest truth, in all his parables and then reads this in Luke 16:19: "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.” Is failing to see that when Jesus says, there was — means there was….

Truth is truth.
Christ tasted and experienced the separation that exists between the sinner and God. Simple. (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34) Had God forsaken Christ? He had to! But only for a time. But it was God that brings Christ back... (Acts 2:32, Acts 4:10, ...) There is no resurrection from the dead after the second death. (Rev. 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8)

There is nothing too extraordinary in knowing a man, left to die the death that sin claims, cannot be raised from the dead having paid his own penalty. Why? Because sin was in the man. But Christ, having taken on sin and died according to the penalty (which God himself set and God himself pays) comes back because He was without sin and God raised him. (my words probably not good enough) If Christ did not pay the debt sin asks...then he didn't redeem us...simple.
B. W. wrote:
Bavarian Wheels wrote: You're asking me if abortion is right or wrong and then to judge God from a finite mind...when you've been arguing this "finite vs. infinite"? LOL
Bavarian Wheels, it is you and you interpretation of scripture that is judging "finite vs. infinite' as evidence by your rejection of the truth Jesus speaks of in Luke 16:19-31 and Matthew 25: 41, 46 in exchange for man's idea of no-lasting recompense simply because man rejects this thought based solely on man's concept of eternal damnation as personally repugnant.

How does God view things? If abortion is evil, which it is, and wrong, which it is because it robs, destroys, and kills life then which standard are we to follow?

If God blast one off into eternal absolute non-existence then that would make him the cosmic abortionist who kills, robs, and destroys. This contradicts:

John 10:10, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Who may have life? Are you attributing this promise for those that go into hell?? If not, what are you citing it for?
B. W. wrote:John 8:43-47, “ Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Matthew 22:32-33, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living." 33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.”

Jesus said that God of the living and not the dead and you accuse me of judging God from a finite mind? Sorry you feel that way but it is not me judging from a finite mind here. I am not the one explaining away the clear teachings of Christ and the Bible to support a notion of absolute non-existence to appease man's bias.
So God will be the God of those in hell? At that point...the scriptures say they are dead...refer back to the Rev. texts above.
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Re: Hell

Posted: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:26 pm
by B. W.
BavarianWheels wrote:...Christ tasted and experienced the separation that exists between the sinner and God. Simple. (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34) Had God forsaken Christ? He had to! But only for a time. But it was God that brings Christ back... (Acts 2:32, Acts 4:10, ...) There is no resurrection from the dead after the second death. (Rev. 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8)

There is nothing too extraordinary in knowing a man, left to die the death that sin claims, cannot be raised from the dead having paid his own penalty. Why? Because sin was in the man. But Christ, having taken on sin and died according to the penalty (which God himself set and God himself pays) comes back because He was without sin and God raised him. (my words probably not good enough) If Christ did not pay the debt sin asks...then he didn't redeem us...simple.
BavarianWheels, you defined and limited the words translated in English as 'death' in the bible to only mean absolute non-existence. I was applying your definition to the logic of the Hebrews 2:9 text. If you apply the above meanings you cited to this text, you would be contradicting your doctrines definition of death. Since the penalty for sin is death (Genesis 2:17) then what would fulfill the full requirements of sin according to your own doctrines definition?

In other words you said — “But Christ, having taken on sin and died according to the penalty (which God himself set and God himself pays) comes back because He was without sin and God raised him. He was without sin and God raised him. (my words probably not good enough) If Christ did not pay the debt sin asks...then he didn't redeem us...simple.”

So therefore, this penalty would be an absolute non-existent state according to your doctrines definition of the word died, death, etc. Question: So are you declaring that God raised Jesus form an absolute non-existent state?
BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:John 10:10, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Who may have life? Are you attributing this promise for those that go into hell?? If not, what are you citing it for?
Let me clarify a bit further: Who may have life — abundant life refers to those that awake to Christ, born again, etc. There are two kinds of eternal life the bible speaks of — everlasting abundant life with God and eternal damnation / banishment from God. Both are eternal.

Why did I cite John 10:10 and John 8? Answer to make a point: The devil does these things for the pleasure of doing them. He wants people exterminated as that would make God deny his words spoke in Genesis chapter one regarding Humanity to prove God spoke a word he could not keep and thus not be God. The devil wants to steal things from people, faith in God, love, hope, dreams, health, etc, so people curse and blame God for it all. The devil wants to bring people into a state of ruination — lives ruined so people mock God for this (note: there is more to these things than I can write here).

Jesus speaks in John 10:10 concerning the devil as liken to a certain kind of thief that comes only to steal, kill, and destroy (meaning bring to ruination). One should not correlate this with God justly exercising his judgment / wrath on mortal beings. The devil steals, kills, and brings to ruin for the mere pleasure of doing so.

Next question that comes, does not also God create calamity, and bring to ruin as Isaiah 45:5-8 says? Answer is yes. However, the Lord God does not do this for pleasure but instead to bring his salvation to light and restore his rule (note Isaiah 45:8). Look at the ways of the Lord regarding this matter summed up in: Nahum 1:2:

The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD is avenging and wrathful; the LORD takes vengeance on his adversaries and keeps wrath for his enemies, 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.”

The Lord is slow to anger and pleads to people to return to him and makes offers of reconciliation, even to those he foreknows will reject him. He offers ways of escape and if people do not repent, it is upon their own heads. He will punish, destroy, to bring to end wickedness so it does not triumph. He does so rightly, justly, faultlessly, which reveals himself all-that-he declares himself to be and is thoroughly justified in doing so. He makes his ways known and his ways are without fault or wrong doing.

God fashions calamity so that a greater good, his good, arises. The bible records in Ezekiel 18:23-32. that God himself spoke that he has no pleasure in the death of the sinner but rather they may turn and live. This does not negate wrath and punishment, nor justify non-existence as punishment, nor justifies that God does not punish eternally to temporarily spank in hell to allow all entry into heavenly bliss. Instead the bible declares: the LORD will by no means clear the guilty who reject God's call.

God is slow to anger so many can turn and live. The evil one does not grant such possibility. God's ways are beyond all other ways mortal mind can fathom yet he proves himself God true to himself and makes this glory known. God is Holy and pure. None like God!

When we die, eternity awaits. Where will we spend eternity? With God or banished from him to a place originally made for the devil and his angels? You see, God is perfectly just and righteous and does no wrong. He is without sin. He does not extinguish life into a state of absolute non-existence as this truly robs life of life that God gives. God is not a robber. He keeps his word. Life is his to give. He is a God of the living.

When the followers of Korah went down alive into Hell, they went down alive. Jesus said that there was a certain rich man that died and went to hell, alive. When God causes mortal life to cease, it is for judgment. God knows these individuals have reached the point where they will never repent and are totally corrupt. This was found in them, not placed within by God. He knows all. He is just. They are sent to wait the final verdict in the depths of hell, alive.

He consigns such to the same place prepared for the devil and his angels, forever. He is not a murderer as life continues after the mortal ceases. God can slay the mortal wicked justly without violation of life he gave and his word given in Genesis Chapter One. So in a sense when God slays the mortal wicked — these go into judgment. Before this time, God pleads and warns and exhorts people everywhere to repent through the message of the cross. He offers a way of escape as Jesus paid the penalty for the sin of us all. This is the way of God - as he is merciful and full of grace and truth.

God is just and wise. He is slow to anger but an accounting will nevertheless come. Where will we all be standing in a day of judgment when mortal life ceases and the eternal begins? Changed by Christ work on the cross resurrected to new life or rejecters of God's offer of love?

One needs to measure theological doctrine according to how the bible reveals and describes God's character, nature, acts, and deeds. Instead, what ends up happening is that the bible is measured by the standards of men's personal biases. These get in the way of what the bible reveals about God.

What I write lines up how the bible reveals and describes God's character, nature, acts, and deeds and lines up with God as He is and not as how I think He should be. I learned this the hard way and had to shed my biased ideas on how God should be for how he reveals himself through the standard of his word. I pray you may do the same in due course as God so wills as many reading this have more to learn from the Holy Spirit's living instructions. This takes time and often much wrestling with the Lord.

I wrestled like many of you have thinking that God way too loving to eternally punish but this did not line up with God's justice. I thought once as an atheist that abortion and euthanasia where examples of a superior from of love but this I found later to be contrary to the God of the living and giver of life who holds us accountable for what we do with his gift.

I even once asked, why did not God just do things right the first time around in the Garden of Eden and thought God to have erred but later I discovered — he did things right - all according to who he is. He keeps his word and proves he is God.

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth, ”Genesis 1:26-28. Then the fall...

That was Eden then. A place to see what would be found in the heart. On earth now, God refining those who will return to Him as He reveals who He is so we can be purified sealed never to rebel again in the new heavens and earth to come. In the process, we learn to love God because he first loved us. Loved so much that He keeps His word to restore us to His original goal He had purposed beforehand before the foundation of the world which in part involves taking care of his precious things: each other and his living things designed.

There is much here, more than I can write. I am being brief. The rest I leave up to you and the Lord to explore on your own. Now, for those of you stumbling across this post who do not know the Lord, it is time for a decision to be made. Think on it a moment, we make plans for our vacations and spend more time doing this than we do about planning for eternity. Vacations do not last, eternity does.

Where do you want to spend eternity? With God or the devil and his fiends? Come to Christ today. God is Just. Christ paid the penalty for sin and by the cross we can now return to God. Through the resurrection of Jesus we discover new life with purpose and meaning through all life's storms and all life's wonderful moments.

I am now only writing to those that do not know Christ in case any stumble upon this Forum. For those that choose life — that life abundant spoken of in John 10:10 and if you are tired of being robbed, killed, and brought to ruin, please pray this little prayer that I quoted here from the end pages my book and then find a bible believing Church to grow strong in:

Dear God, Lord Most High! I am dumb as a post and know nothing. I am tired of living my life and making things all ugly around me. I ask you to forgive me and make me whole. Teach me, instruct me, guide me and never let me go. Dear Lord Jesus Christ, invade my life and help me make life, live, where I have been assigned. I need your Spirit of life blown inside me; please do this for me. The nails tore your wrist causing your bones to pull apart for me. I do not understand why you did this, but please teach me. Dear Jesus, teach me the way I should go. Make me born again from above by the breath of Your Spirit. Amen.”
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Note: Bible quotes from ESV unless cited otherwise

Re: Hell

Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 4:17 am
by Marcosll
Uhmmm. So what you're saying is that you'd rather suffer for eternity than just dissappear? Right...

I think there are 3 fundamental beliefs on the planet and every religion is a sub-belief of these.

For simplicity sake lets assume that spirit is just life energy.

The 3 beliefs are:

1) Those who believe you are just bio-mechanical and there is nothing else to life. We are just moving bits that have no purpose and when you die all parts get recycled and that's that.

2) Those who believe when they die that their life energy move on to a different plane of existance for the rest of eternity (heaven/hell etc...).

3) Those who believe in reincarnation of the life energy after death.


Since there are very very few people who truly believe in #1 we'll assume discussion about hell can only take place between people in groups 2 and 3. Most Atheists are in groups 2 and 3. They believe in life energy transcending physical life but they don't believe in a higher life energy than their own, or at least one that controlls them.

So since most Atheists are open game for Cristians who believe in heaven and hell and have a book supposedly "inspired" by a higher power that can guide them, it's perfectly valid for them to try to convert middle grounders who havn't picked a true religion yet.

Keep in mind that there seem to be evil life energies and good life energies and everything in between. Expect perfect punishment in a perfect universe such as this one. If you're an Atheist who isn't in category #1 you should at least try to stick to the good side would be my advice.