Holy Spirit Gifts still for today??

SoaringEagle · Post by **SoaringEagle** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:19 pm

Puritan Lad,

What do you make of the following verse:
2 Tim. 3:16 - All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

and

The Scripture verses concerning the 9 Holy Spirit gifts and the apostolic/prophetic ministry Scriptures?

So are they no longer profitable for teaching? Are they no longer used so that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work? Would a man of God who rejects these for his life and the church who does the same be complete and equipped for every good work?

Also, if it is true as you say, that there are no apostles for today, then what would you make of the post I posted on that specific topic?

Your brother,
SoaringEagle

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:19 am

Yes, all scripture is profitable for teaching, etc. That doesn't mean that every scripture has a direct reference to us. For example, God told Hosea to take for himself a wife of harlotry (Hosea 1:2). While this scripture is profitable to us, I'm sure you wouldn't suggest that it is a direct commandment to us today.

I've already outlined the clear biblical qualification for the office of Apostle. The candidate must be an eyewitness to the resurrection of Christ. Unless you know of someone who is nearly 2,000 years old, there are no apostles today.

Arnion · Post by **Arnion** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:35 am

Dear Puritan lad,

unlike you I was a cessationist for most of my christian walk who became finally a charismatic. As you can imagine I lovingly disagree with you on many points. Let me start with the apostle issue.
Although your observation on the qualifications for an apostle is true for the founding days of the church you must admit that in the course of time the term apostle was used in a much broader sense. Barnabas was called an apostle (Ac 14:14) and so were Silas and Timothy (1. Th 2:6) and also Andronicus and Junias (Rom 16:7) who were outstanding amog the apostles - so there must have been even more. To say that all these apostles had seen the risen Lord would be adding to the scriptures. We rather see here that Paul raised up a second generation of apostles, who simply taught what the first Apostles taught and continued their ministry. In this sense we still can have an apostolic ministry in the church today.

God bless

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:16 am

Arnion wrote:Dear Puritan lad,

unlike you I was a cessationist for most of my christian walk who became finally a charismatic. As you can imagine I lovingly disagree with you on many points.

Interesting. I started off Charismatic and went Reformed. Don't get me wrong, I still love Pentecostals. Today, most of my family is still Pentecostal. They have all of the "gifts", I just don't see where they have what they say they have.

Arnion wrote: We rather see here that Paul raised up a second generation of apostles, who simply taught what the first Apostles taught and continued their ministry. In this sense we still can have an apostolic ministry in the church today.

I don't disagree that we can still have an apostolic ministry (we should have that). I just don't believe that the Office of Apostle is still a valid office today.

Let me lay out one other reason why I rejected the modern charismatic doctrines. Isn't one of the charismatic gifts supposed to be the gift of knowledge (1 Corinthians 13:2, 1 Corinthians 13:8)? Yet, most Pentecostal churches are dead wrong in so many doctrinal areas. I know that this may get off into some other controversial doctrines, and I don't want to paint with too broad of a brush, but...

Every Pentecostal church that I know of is Arminian.
Every Pentecostal church that I know of is Premillennial Dispensational.

I reject both of these theologies based on the Word of God, as you can see in other posts.

Also, (and I don't mean to sound harsh here), but Pentecostal ministers are some of the most biblically illiterate people I know. Seriously, if you get 100 charismatic preachers in a room and ask them to name the 10 Commandments, you'll be lucky to find 5 who could actually do it. (Ask any 10 year old in a Reformed Church who has been there for any time, they'll list them for you like clockwork.)

In any case, it is apparent that the prophecy gifts that are being claimed today, even if we grant that they are real, are totally different then the biblical version.

God Bless,

PL

ryo dokomi · Post by **ryo dokomi** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:29 pm

Isn't one of the charismatic gifts supposed to be the gift of knowledge

actually, its called a Word of Knowledge, and it is scripture based. and so is a Word of Wisdom..

let me ask another question, you yourself posted 1 Cor. 13:8

...if you read it, it states that when love passes away the prophecy will ceese...if you dont believe me, read more...it says that knowledge will vanish away. now has knowledged away, of course not. so scripture says that until love passes away, (which it hasnt) we should walk in Prophecy, in Tounges, and Knowlege (which also has not passed away).

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 6:34 pm

ryo dokomi wrote:
Isn't one of the charismatic gifts supposed to be the gift of knowledge
actually, its called a Word of Knowledge, and it is scripture based. and so is a Word of Wisdom..

let me ask another question, you yourself posted 1 Cor. 13:8

...if you read it, it states that when love passes away the prophecy will ceese...if you dont believe me, read more...it says that knowledge will vanish away. now has knowledged away, of course not. so scripture says that until love passes away, (which it hasnt) we should walk in Prophecy, in Tounges, and Knowlege (which also has not passed away).

Actually it says that love will NOT pass away, but that tongues and prophecies would.

In any case, I think that we have exhausted this issue. I just want to encourage you to hold your modern day "prophets" to the Deut. 18:18-22 test. I believe that you will find that these "prophets" are no such thing.

God Bless,

PL

ryo dokomi · Post by **ryo dokomi** » Thu Dec 01, 2005 7:00 pm

i agree that we have exasted this issue and that there is nothing left to discuss.

Arnion · Post by **Arnion** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:08 am

Dear Puritan lad,

Before I became a charismatic I had been disappointed and very hurt by some members of "reformed churches" who definitely believed in some weird things. But I don't hold it against them since we all make mistakes. There are good and bad teachers in the reformed camp and there are also able teachers among the charismatics. To operate in the gift of knowledge doesn't equal infailability - there is only one man who claims to be infailable and he comes from a completely different church. But I think we both know that this sweeping generalizaztion that all charismatics are biblically illitarate was a slight exageration

As far as Aminianism is concerned I must confess that I didn't understand your point. Could you explain?
Having a premillenial dispensational theology isn't a big problem to my mind. Eschatology is a complex field and I try to keep an open mind and learn as muchs as I can. The Lord willing, my views in this area might change if he grants me new insights.
And for prophecy - modern day prophecies are not different from the biblical version but from the ministry of the prophet in the Old Testament. Prophecies today are never meant to be an addition to the Bible. They are rather meant for strengthening, ecouragement and comfort (1. Cor 14:3). In our time the Holy Spirit indwells every believer and the Spirit can testify to us (Rom 8:16). Every believer can learn to listen to the Spirit and can also try to minister to others in the prophetic (comp. 1. Cor 14:26) Church members will make mistakes in the learning process and this is why we must test everything and hold on to the good (1. Thes 5:21). But we must never treat prophecies with contempt or we will put out the Spirit's fire (1. Thes 5:19-20). While every believer has a certain potential to prophesy he is not automatically a prophet. A prophet is part of the five-fold ministry and can prophesy continually with great accuracy thus helping the saints in the local congregation (Eph 4:11-12). This is at least my view of things but let me guess - you disagree

God bless

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:38 am

Arnion wrote:As far as Aminianism is concerned I must confess that I didn't understand your point. Could you explain? ...Having a premillenial dispensational theology isn't a big problem to my mind.

I'm not saying that it is a "problem", but that they are wrong in both counts. How could a group of people who are truly "being led by the Spirit" be so wrong in so many ways? (Of course, that'll open up entire new debates...)

See Calvinism vs. Arminianism and Rapture for starters.

Arnion wrote:To operate in the gift of knowledge doesn't equal infailability ...And for prophecy - modern day prophecies are not different from the biblical version but from the ministry of the prophet in the Old Testament. Prophecies today are never meant to be an addition to the Bible. They are rather meant for strengthening, ecouragement and comfort (1. Cor 14:3).

Here is the problem. Old Testament Prophecy and New Testament Prophecy are the same thing (See Psalm 89:34). Both are Words directly from the mouth of God (Deut. 18:18, Acts 13:1-3) and the prophets were to be obeyed. When a person "prophecies" in the name of the Lord, 100% accuracy is required (God's Words are not fallible). Saying that a modern prophet is not "infallible" just doesn't cut it. Neither were the Old Testament prophets. However, the Words that they speak in prophecy are infallible (anything less in the Old Testament required death for the prophet (Deut. 18:20). I dare say that if we ever adopted that civil law, most of our modern "prophets" would suddenly forget that they had this gift

Arnion wrote:This is at least my view of things but let me guess - you disagree
God bless

Correct.

God Bless,

PL

ryo dokomi · Post by **ryo dokomi** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:26 am

by the way, puritan, your definition of prophecy is incorrect. see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=50;

puritan worte:
Jeremiah 18:7-10
"The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it."

Bible prophecy isn't just prediction, but is a sentence passed from God concerning His Covenant, which contains blessing for obedience (Deuteronomy 28:1-14) and cursings for disobedience (Deuteronomy 28:15-68).

he was talking about Jeremiah, that what his particular ministry was... 1 Cor. 14:3 states exatly what prophet was used for. the deffinition of prophecy in the greek and hebrew is this...

----Strong's Lexicon----Greek: Prophet:
4396 prophetes prof-ay'-tace from a compound of 4253 and 5346; a foreteller ("prophet"); by analogy, an inspired speaker; by extension, a poet:--prophet.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:Prophecy:
4394 propheteia prof-ay-ti'-ah from 4396 ("prophecy"); prediction (scriptural or other):--prophecy, prophesying.

4397 prophetikos prof-ay-tik-os' from 4396; pertaining to a foreteller ("prophetic"):--of prophecy, of the prophets.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----Hebrew-----
Result of search for "prophesying":
5017 nbuw'ah neb-oo-aw (Aramaic) corresponding to 5016; inspired teaching:--prophesying.

Prophecy was for edification, exortation and comfort to man, not always 'you wicked, i am going to kill you all' type of stuff to the nations. that is not comfort, edification, and exortation to men.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:24 pm

ryo dokomi wrote:by the way, puritan, your definition of prophecy is incorrect. see http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=50;

Not so. I agree with the 1 Cor. 14:3 definition. It is not "fortune-telling", unless you want to consider Jonah a false prophet.

Again, in order to "prophesy", one must be speaking inerrant, infallible, and authoritative words directly from the mouth of God. This means that 100% accuracy is required. This was true in both Old and New Testaments, as I have already pointed out in my previous post.

Prophecy was for edification, exortation and comfort to man, not always 'you wicked, i am going to kill you all' type of stuff to the nations. that is not comfort, edification, and exortation to men.

Agreed. Exhortation, however includes judgment. The main purpose of a prophet (both OT and NT) was to exhort God's people to "ethical living", obedience. (In fact, the main subject of the Book of Revelation is obedience, but this has gotten lost in today's poor exegesis of the Book.) Prophecy is not fortune-telling, and the Bible warns against such.

Of course, this argument is irrelevant, since today's "prophets" aren't very good at either one.

ryo dokomi · Post by **ryo dokomi** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:46 pm

if no prophecy is about the future, then nearly all prophecy in the Bible should just be thrown out, most of it is telling of the future. read Revelation for the best example of that, however, Jeremiah, Issiah, and Daniel all prophecyed the futhur.

ryo dokomi · Post by **ryo dokomi** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:10 pm

also, just to add, you say that Kim Clement is a false Prophet. (im looking into that one) however, a website that you gave in the Katrina discussion, i went there and found anther man. http://www.letusreason.org/BookR4.htm
here the author of the website clearly states 'I believe he is correct in that dreams, visions and prophecy are increasing in our time.'...'there would be no counterfeit prophecy if there was not a genuine reality, just as there are no counterfeit three dollar bills because there are no real ones.'

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:27 pm

ryo dokomi wrote:also, just to add, you say that Kim Clement is a false Prophet. (im looking into that one) however, a website that you gave in the Katrina discussion, i went there and found anther man. http://www.letusreason.org/BookR4.htm
here the author of the website clearly states 'I believe he is correct in that dreams, visions and prophecy are increasing in our time.'...'there would be no counterfeit prophecy if there was not a genuine reality, just as there are no counterfeit three dollar bills because there are no real ones.'

Interesting, a while back I had increasing dreams and visions about the future. And while the atheists of this forum don't believe Christians anyways, I will say that the future doesn't look good for them. I have heard and seen Jesus in one form or another, if you don't believe me, fine, but, yeah, I 100% agree that "dreams, visions and prophecy are increasing in our time".

Arnion · Post by **Arnion** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:37 am

Again, in order to "prophesy", one must be speaking inerrant, infallible, and authoritative words directly from the mouth of God. This means that 100% accuracy is required. This was true in both Old and New Testaments, as I have already pointed out in my previous post.

My dear Puritan lad

What is true in the Old Testament isn't necessarily true for the new covenant. In the Old Testament the prophet was a mediator between man and God. The Spirit didn't indwell every believer. But this situation changed drastically on the day of Pentecost. The Spirit is now God's universal gift for every believer. From this day on things would never be the same again. A believer under the new covenant can now receive inerrant revelations through the Spirit. But when he perceives it and interprets it, it is not infallible any longer. To my mind this is the crucial difference between the prophetic ministry in the Old and the New Testament.
Dear Puritan lad, you often speak of how stupid all the people are who don't believe in the Theology you adhere to. You speak of poor exegesis and others being biblically illiterates. Never forget which people in the Bible were proud of being more religious than others (eg. Lk 18:9-14). Let us reason together, let us encourage one another but let us never belittle the faith of another believer! I may not agree with every point you make but I appreciate the wisdom God gave you.
God bless.

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