rapture

[puritan lad]

As I say I'm leaning towards it but I'm not as dogmatic as I used to be. I think the problem is that is the only view i've ever been exposed to.

I think that is the problem with most Christians, including myself at one time. In fact, when you point out that the Bible doesn't mention a pre-trib rapture, and that the doctrine is less than 180 years old, most Christians are astonished.

I have more questions than answers like:

1. if the scenario in Revelations is not the great tribulation, what is it? Certainly nothing that horrific ever happened in 70 AD, symbolic language or not.

Sure did. I know that you already have your hands full with Owen's Book, but I would point you toward David Chilton's "Days of Vengeance". (It's a long book, over 800 pages, but not nearly as difficult to read as Owen's works). See also Kenneth Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation". Gentry also has a good article online identifying The Beast of Revelation as Nero Caesar.

We need to remember that Revelation was written to seven first Century churches concerning events that "must shortly take place" (Rev. 1:1), were "near" (Rev. 1:3). Jesus promised to keep the First Century Church of Philadelphia "from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the land." (Rev. 1:19). Certainly those early Philadelphia Christians had no interest in Hal Lindsey's horror stories, nor were they concerned with 21 Century events. They were concerned with the persecution they were receiving from Judaists and Romans. God was to avenge them shortly, within that generation.

2. In Matthew 24 Jesus said that prior to this tribulation everything would be business as usual, but then out of the blue some people are taken and some left standing still (don't worry, I'm not going to start singing "I wish we'd all been ready" :lol: weren't those movies cheesy?)...anyway, I doubt anybody was caught off guard in such a dramatic manner in 70 AD. They would have heard the rumble of the horses and chariots, and the war cries from miles away.

That's not exactly what Jesus said, but close. He actually warned Christians to flee Judea when the saw the "Abomination of Desolation", clarified in Luke as Jerusalem surrounded by armies (See Matthew 24:15-22 and compare Luke 21:20-24). Christians were to leave Judea before the Great Tribulation, not be raptured into heaven. In fact, Jesus tells us that the days of the Great Tribulation were to be shortened "for the elect's sake" (Matthew 24:22).

3. In 1st thessalonians 5 the dead and alive in Christ are taken, caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the air. This can't be the end of the world yet can it? Christ doesn't even touch down.

Why not? The righteous dead are resurrected prior to these Christians being caught up in the air. Jesus said that the resurrection takes place "on the last day" (John 6:39-40, 44), not before some "tribulation period". In fact, 1 Thess. 4:17 is held by most dispensationalists to be the main supporting Scripture for the Pre-Trib Rapture, despite the fact that there is no mention of a tribulation period in 1 Thess. at all. I pointed out earlier that the classic dispensational interpretation of the resurrections is wraught with inconsistencies. According to Rev. 20:4-5, the "first resurrection" includes "the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands". This would be, according to them, the tribulation saints. Therefore, if this is the first resurrection, then 1 Thess 4:16 could not happen before the tribulation, unless the first resurrection is really the second, and the second which takes place "after the 1,000 years" (Rev. 20:5) is really the third. Throw in another resurrection for the "millennium saints", and you've got 4 different resurrections that take place 1,007 years apart. However, both Jesus and Daniel taught one resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous at the same time (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29).

4. If like Jesus said there is going to be a great tribulation like never before or after, then wouldn't He make provision for his saints?

He did. He told them to leave Judea, and they did.

Hope this helps.

PL.

[FFC]

As I say I'm leaning towards it but I'm not as dogmatic as I used to be. I think the problem is that is the only view i've ever been exposed to.

I think that is the problem with most Christians, including myself at one time. In fact, when you point out that the Bible doesn't mention a pre-trib rapture, and that the doctrine is less than 180 years old, most Christians are astonished.

I have more questions than answers like:

1. if the scenario in Revelations is not the great tribulation, what is it? Certainly nothing that horrific ever happened in 70 AD, symbolic language or not.

Sure did. I know that you already have your hands full with Owen's Book, but I would point you toward David Chilton's "Days of Vengeance". (It's a long book, over 800 pages, but not nearly as difficult to read as Owen's works). See also Kenneth Gentry's "Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation". Gentry also has a good article online identifying The Beast of Revelation as Nero Caesar.

We need to remember that Revelation was written to seven first Century churches concerning events that "must shortly take place" (Rev. 1:1), were "near" (Rev. 1:3). Jesus promised to keep the First Century Church of Philadelphia "from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the land." (Rev. 1:19). Certainly those early Philadelphia Christians had no interest in Hal Lindsey's horror stories, nor were they concerned with 21 Century events. They were concerned with the persecution they were receiving from Judaists and Romans. God was to avenge them shortly, within that generation.

2. In Matthew 24 Jesus said that prior to this tribulation everything would be business as usual, but then out of the blue some people are taken and some left standing still (don't worry, I'm not going to start singing "I wish we'd all been ready" weren't those movies cheesy?)...anyway, I doubt anybody was caught off guard in such a dramatic manner in 70 AD. They would have heard the rumble of the horses and chariots, and the war cries from miles away.

That's not exactly what Jesus said, but close. He actually warned Christians to flee Judea when the saw the "Abomination of Desolation", clarified in Luke as Jerusalem surrounded by armies (See Matthew 24:15-22 and compare Luke 21:20-24). Christians were to leave Judea before the Great Tribulation, not be raptured into heaven. In fact, Jesus tells us that the days of the Great Tribulation were to be shortened "for the elect's sake" (Matthew 24:22).

3. In 1st thessalonians 5 the dead and alive in Christ are taken, caught up in the air to meet the Lord in the air. This can't be the end of the world yet can it? Christ doesn't even touch down.

Why not? The righteous dead are resurrected prior to these Christians being caught up in the air. Jesus said that the resurrection takes place "on the last day" (John 6:39-40, 44), not before some "tribulation period". In fact, 1 Thess. 4:17 is held by most dispensationalists to be the main supporting Scripture for the Pre-Trib Rapture, despite the fact that there is no mention of a tribulation period in 1 Thess. at all. I pointed out earlier that the classic dispensational interpretation of the resurrections is wraught with inconsistencies. According to Rev. 20:4-5, the "first resurrection" includes "the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands". This would be, according to them, the tribulation saints. Therefore, if this is the first resurrection, then 1 Thess 4:16 could not happen before the tribulation, unless the first resurrection is really the second, and the second which takes place "after the 1,000 years" (Rev. 20:5) is really the third. Throw in another resurrection for the "millennium saints", and you've got 4 different resurrections that take place 1,007 years apart. However, both Jesus and Daniel taught one resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous at the same time (Daniel 12:2; John 5:28-29).

4. If like Jesus said there is going to be a great tribulation like never before or after, then wouldn't He make provision for his saints?

He did. He told them to leave Judea, and they did.

Hope this helps.

PL.

You've given me a lot to think about. I've always had questions about certain aspects of the pre trib view, but I never looked into them. As a young Christian that knew nothing I just took the word of those in the lord longer than me and who had more knowledge. I need to look into this.

Another problem is the millennium. Reading Revelations it's hard to distinguish it from heaven...and what is the point of it when we could just as easily be in heaven worshipping Jesus on the throne.

I've always heard that the big reasons that the Jews rejected Jesus as messiah was because they were expecting a reigning messiah who would physically set up His kingdom on earth. Is this true? or just something that has been implied in a dispensational view?

I'm very confused.

[puritan lad]

FFC,

I remember the same confused feeling as a Dispensationalist in 1998, when the Y2K prophecies were in full flux. The more I studied the issue, the more I realized that it was, in fact, our modern prophecy teachers that were confused.

PL

[FFC]

PL, I'm checking into the things you have written and I found this quote.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

It would seem that the notion of a rapture is much earlier than 180 years ago.

[FFC]

Christians were to leave Judea before the Great Tribulation, not be raptured into heaven. In fact, Jesus tells us that the days of the Great Tribulation were to be shortened "for the elect's sake" (Matthew 24:22).

How long did the Invasion in 70 AD go? Was it 7 years? And what about the notion that the elect are the Jewish elect? Also, are the 144,000 the elect that is referred to in Matt 24:22?

Anybody?

[puritan lad]

PL, I'm checking into the things you have written and I found this quote.

Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

It would seem that the notion of a rapture is much earlier than 180 years ago.

Most of the hoaxes invented by pre-trib "historians" can be exposed here:

http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/deceived.html

Granted, I don't believe that Thomas Ice is a dishonest man, but that he is so desperate for some historical validity of the doctrine that he'll take ahold of anything that appears somewhat supportive. (He even claims support from the wierd Dolcinote cult).

I would also recommend Dave MacPherson's "The Rapture Plot". He uncovers the real roots of the "pre-trib" rapture doctrine. It was invented by a 15 year old Scottish Psychic named Margaret MacDonald, brought into the church by John Nelson Darby, and promoted throughout the 19th Century with the use of Astrology and Pyramidology. Scofield's Reference Novel, err...Bible made the Doctrine mainsteam, and Hal Lindsey made it the monster that it is today. However, there are two places that you will not find a pre-trib rapture, the Bible, and the church before the early 1800's.

[puritan lad]

How long did the Invasion in 70 AD go?

The Roman-Jewish war officially began in 66 AD and ended in 73 AD with the fall of Masada. Yes, it was 7 years, although the Bible makes no mention of a 7-year tribulation period

And what about the notion that the elect are the Jewish elect?

Correct. Jesus told the Jewish Christians to flee Judea when they see Jerusalem surrounded by armies (Luke 21:20), which they did.

"The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella." (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History III, 5:4)

Also, are the 144,000 the elect that is referred to in Matt 24:22?

In a sense, yes. The 144,000 is a symbolic number 12X12X1000, representing the universal church, specifically in the First Century. Perhaps there were exactly 144,000 Jewish Christians who fled Jerusalem, but as far as I know, no one has ever counted such.

[FFC]

Hey PL,
I'm reading Matthew 24 and I must say that I am leaning more and more toward your interpretation that it is speaking about the events of 70 AD, especially when Jesus tells them that it will happen in their generation and that it will be worse than any other time in history or any time in the future(which kind of rules out any great tribulation in the future.

But I still have trouble with these verses. It says "immediately after the tribulation of those days" these events will take place, the biggest being the return of Christ in all His power and glory. These events didn't happen yet as far as I know...so does immediately not mean immediately, or has Christ already returned spiritually, or is the whole tribulation thing still a future event? This tribulation period and the return of Christ do seem to be one after the other...with seemingly little time between.

What do you think?

Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

[Jac3510]

FFC -

Just so you can see the other side of the Preterism debate, I walked line by line through PL's interpretation of Matt. 24 here.

The thing that makes preterism so appealing is that it demonstrates the historical typological fulfillment of Matt 24. That fulfillment has been sadly ignored or underestimated by Futurists. Anyway, I just thought I'd provide that link for you and anyone else reading through this.

God bless

[FFC]

FFC -

Just so you can see the other side of the Preterism debate, I walked line by line through PL's interpretation of Matt. 24 here.

The thing that makes preterism so appealing is that it demonstrates the historical typological fulfillment of Matt 24. That fulfillment has been sadly ignored or underestimated by Futurists. Anyway, I just thought I'd provide that link for you and anyone else reading through this.

God bless

It looks good, Jac. Thank you.

[puritan lad]

FFC,

I hold that the "coming in the clouds" here is not the Second Advent, but Christ's "coming" in judgment upon that wicked and perverse generation. This apocalyptic language is common throughout the Bible. We see Isaiah prophesying the Assyrian destruction of Egypt in Isaiah 20:1-4 by saying that "the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt" (Isaiah 19:1). The "coming" in Matthew 24:30 is the same "coming" as Matthew 21:40, a clear reference to the 70 AD judgment (See Matthew 21:41-45).

Hope this clears things up a bit.

PL

[FFC]

FFC,

I hold that the "coming in the clouds" here is not the Second Advent, but Christ's "coming" in judgment upon that wicked and perverse generation. This apocalyptic language is common throughout the Bible. We see Isaiah prophesying the Assyrian destruction of Egypt in Isaiah 20:1-4 by saying that "the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt" (Isaiah 19:1). The "coming" in Matthew 24:30 is the same "coming" as Matthew 21:40, a clear reference to the 70 AD judgment (See Matthew 21:41-45).

Hope this clears things up a bit.

PL

It would definately help in the whole 70 AD senerio until this verse:

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This definately looks like the 2nd coming.

[puritan lad]

Matthew 24:31
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The gathering of the elect was God's act of removing Christians from Jerusalem before pouring out His wrath on the city. Obeying Jesus' warning in Luke 21:20-24, The Jewish Christians fled to Mt. Pella in Decapolis.

First Century Fulfillment:

“As Josephus was speaking thus with a loud voice, the seditious would neither yield to what he said, nor did they deem it safe for them to alter their conduct; but as for the people, they had a great inclination to desert to the Romans; accordingly, some of them sold what they had, and even the most precious things that had been laid up as treasures by them, for every small matter, and swallowed down pieces of gold, that they might not be found out by the robbers; and when they had escaped to the Romans, went to stool, and had wherewithal to provide plentifully for themselves; for Titus let a great number of them go away into the country, whither they pleased.” — (Josephus - Wars 5:10:1)

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.” — (Eusebius - History of the Church 3:5:3)

[FFC]

Matthew 24:31
"And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The gathering of the elect was God's act of removing Christians from Jerusalem before pouring out His wrath on the city. Obeying Jesus' warning in Luke 21:20-24, The Jewish Christians fled to Mt. Pella in Decapolis.

First Century Fulfillment:

“As Josephus was speaking thus with a loud voice, the seditious would neither yield to what he said, nor did they deem it safe for them to alter their conduct; but as for the people, they had a great inclination to desert to the Romans; accordingly, some of them sold what they had, and even the most precious things that had been laid up as treasures by them, for every small matter, and swallowed down pieces of gold, that they might not be found out by the robbers; and when they had escaped to the Romans, went to stool, and had wherewithal to provide plentifully for themselves; for Titus let a great number of them go away into the country, whither they pleased.” — (Josephus - Wars 5:10:1)

“But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella.” — (Eusebius - History of the Church 3:5:3)

Very interesting, thank you.

[JessS]

I'm new here, but I've pretty much read every word on this site, and I think it's beyond awesome. A lot of great answers. I was googling for something completely unrelated to religion and God and Science was the first item on the Google page. Mysterious ways.

I've read this thread and seen a lot of references to the Bible doesn't mention this or that, but I believe that even if it's not written literally in the Bible, it doesn't mean it's not "mentioned".

For instance the word "Trinity" is never written, but I'm sure you all believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one and the same. Some things are just layed out for us to accept.

The Bible does refer to the Tribulation lasting seven years, in two places. Once in Daniel and once in Revelation.

I got these quotes from Matthew McGee's web site, because I'm too lazy to look them up myself.
Daniel 9:26-27 shows that there will be a seven year period (of 360 day years) in the middle of which the beast (or "prince" or "antichrist") will commit the abomination that causes desolation in the Holy of Holies

This seven year period is also laid out in the book of Revelation. In the first half, the two witnesses shall prophesy 1260 days (Revelation 11:3). Technically, the first half is not called the "great tribulation", but the plagues during that time will still be horrible. Then in the middle of that seven years (the 70th week of Daniel's prophecy) the beast shall kill the two witnesses and he will reign for 42 months (Revelation 13:5). That period is known in scripture as the "time of Jacob's trouble" or the "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21). It is that same 3 1/2 years that the remnant of Israel will be protected in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6 and 12:14).

I believe that the book of Daniel and the Book of Revelation speak of the same events.

Since Daniel was written before the fall of Jerusalem, I can see how some of it could pertain to 70A.D., but Revelations was written after the fall of Jerusalem, and though Christ's words to the seven assemblies seem to refer to their "present" situation, it's clear to me that in Rev. 4:1, Christ tells John; "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place in the future." Since Revelation seems to me, to follow a chronological order, from that point on anything that he saw in the vision hadn't happened yet.

This doesn't tell me that there will be a pre-trib, but it does make me think that the fall of Jerusalem has nothing to do with the Tribulation, and was just a drop in the bucket, compared to what we have coming to us in the future.

I would like to think that Christ will swoop down and scoop us up before it gets nasty on the planet, but if I were in his shoes, I might want to find out how how many would tuck tail and deny me when things really got tuff.

But since I couldn't test those that had already died in the past, how could I justify testing those whose only difference was to be alive when it started. Besides, I believe Christ knows who's going through the motions, and who really believes, without any testing, so what would it hurt to spare a few faithful servants a little pain, suffering and starvation?

I've seen a lot of verses that point to a pre-trib rapture, and the same for a post-trib and all them have totally convinced me that I need to be ready to go the distance right here on Earth amongst the pagans, heathens and idolators. If there is a pre-trib, bonus for me. If there isn't, I'm going to try to not be caught with my junk hanging out for God and everybody to see.