Several questions concerning the fall and evil

[B. W.]

No, that is not my argument at all. Im not saying its untrue just because men wrote it. My argument is that the bible believers claim that the claims made in the bible are made under authority of God when there is no evidence that this is the case (that I know of)

There is fulfilled bible prophecy such as Isaiah 11:11, 12...which is pretty clear cut demonstrates divine inspiration. There is more, such as archeological evidence corresponds to actual cities, towns, people locations.

Religious practices of the Canaanites etc and etc mentioned in the bible, verified from ancient historians, and recent archeological findings. Also ancient letters found that talk of the early Christian Church by secular authorities and other things point to the bible as something unique. Dead sea scrolls, dating OT writings fit modern translations. Writings that mention from ancient peoples from other countries that speak of events and people mentioned in the bible.

There is a lot more – suggest the book, "I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be An Atheist* By Frank Turek and Norman Geisler for an easy read on this matter as well.
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[MAGSolo]

Okay but fictional books very often have real places, events and even people in them. Having any or all of these elements does not distinguish a book from being fiction or nonfiction. One could right a book with every US president in correct chronological order and still have every other event be fictitious. One can easily build a fictional work that speaks of actual people, places, and events. Furthermore the refounding of Israel could be merely a coincidence and this also presents the problem that if you use this as evidence for us today, then it wasnt evidence for those alive before this event occurred. So I could simply say, if we were having this discussion in the year 1912 instead of 2012, then what would your answer be? The rest of the things you wrote are rather vague so I cant really comment on them.

I think the problem is that much like God providing a supernatural sign to prove his existence, if there was any clear undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired, then it removes the need for faith. If God just shows up, performs some miracles and says this is what I want you to do, then faith is no longer required. If there is some clear evidence that the bible is inspired by God, then this would remove the element of faith. What I dont understand is why is faith so important? Why cant God just show himself or literally speak to us and tell us what he wants and then let people decide if they will obey or not?

[PaulSacramento]

I think the problem is that much like God providing a supernatural sign to prove his existence, if there was any clear undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired, then it removes the need for faith. If God just shows up, performs some miracles and says this is what I want you to do, then faith is no longer required. If there is some clear evidence that the bible is inspired by God, then this would remove the element of faith. What I dont understand is why is faith so important? Why cant God just show himself or literally speak to us and tell us what he wants and then let people decide if they will obey or not?

Well, doesn't THAT ( personal revelation) also require some faith?

[MAGSolo]

No.

[PaulSacramento]

No.

Really?
So you have THAT much "faith" in your personal faculties that your ability to reason DIVINE revelation requires no faith?

[B. W.]

...I think the problem is that much like God providing a supernatural sign to prove his existence, if there was any clear undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired, then it removes the need for faith. If God just shows up, performs some miracles and says this is what I want you to do, then faith is no longer required. If there is some clear evidence that the bible is inspired by God, then this would remove the element of faith. What I dont understand is why is faith so important? Why cant God just show himself or literally speak to us and tell us what he wants and then let people decide if they will obey or not?

God gave humanity the greatest miraculous evidence that he exist by the diversity and complexity of all creation. We see it so much that we over look this as we do the nose on our face.

Faith identifies what one is loyal to the most, trusts the most, adheres to the most, loves the most, and seals one too an object. Faith is not blind because faith is tied to an object. That object can be material, theoretical science, emotional, or spiritual. Faith reveals the heart and changes the heart. That is why it is important. Human beings are creatures of faith. Too often, agnostic and atheist redefine faith as mere belief and build their case against faith by that presupposition as they do with many other things.

God did show himself about 2000 years ago through Jesus Christ. People refused then to acknowledge the visit and instead chose to lie about him, plot against him, bear false witness against him, seize him by force, put him on trial, beat him, whip him, mock him, hate him, ridicule him, demand he perform for you or else, divide his processions greedily, and crucify him.

Pretty much what you would do today Magsolo if he appeared to you today in human form. Your words you wrote here testify to this. They reveal the show trial method of yours by your berating mocking tones and demanding God to perform for you. These things are what defines the character and nature of sin which seeks to abuse God’s goodness and twist it toward one’s own faith. What are you one loyal to the most, trust the most, adhere to the most, love the most, and seals you? Is it faith in self, faith in humanity to rule by subjective morality? Science alone? Anything without God in the picture – because man the measure of all things? What is it?

God gave you life, how are you using it? How many times have you poked your finger in the eye of his grace? God’s Grace that allows independent reason, exercise of dominion, tending and taking care of things on earth? How could God be absolutely just in all he does and deny these abilities to you and I (Humanity)? So just that he lets us reap the consequences of our faith and eternally grants that fairly.

These consequences are our own doing – not God’s. Faith seals us one way or another – eternally. God would be unjust to leave us in our twisting state without intervention. So he came and exposed sin; dealt with it by the works of the Cross to reveal how a person’s faith will seal them. Which way do you desire most to head for? Eternally separated from God or reconciled?

Recognize that God offers a choice. He does not force you to have faith him as you and all the militant agnostic and atheist force their views upon all humanity to accept or else. More people, children women, men died in atheist/secular Stalinist Russia and Communist China than all the wars of religion combined including the inquisition. Secular humanistic societies eventually evolve to support the most inhuman treatments upon the populace; you cite how God is a moral monster in your show trial. What about abortion and how secular humanist justifies it? Talk about the slaughter of the innocent – look in the mirror. What is your faith cemented on?
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[PaulSacramento]

Many skeptics mention that "all" they need is for God to show Himself to them ( of course personal revelation by other is not-valid and is just anecdotal).
Its funny but in Luke we have Jesus' own words as to why it wouldn't make much of a difference:
Luke 16:19-31

New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man’s table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘ Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And [a]besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

How true it came to be.

[MAGSolo]

How did it come to be true?

Really?
So you have THAT much "faith" in your personal faculties that your ability to reason DIVINE revelation requires no faith?

yes

[PaulSacramento]

How did it come to be true?

Really?
So you have THAT much "faith" in your personal faculties that your ability to reason DIVINE revelation requires no faith?

yes

Well guess what?
So do we

[Beanybag]

Haha. It's a good point. Even if God appeared before me and commanded me to obey him, I might doubt myself as having gone a little loony. Skeptics gonna skept, yo (???).

[PaulSacramento]

Haha. It's a good point. Even if God appeared before me and commanded me to obey him, I might doubt myself as having gone a little loony. Skeptics gonna skept, yo (???).

A healthy skepticisim is NOT a bad thing.
I would think that ANYONE would question an experience like that.
That is why personal revelation is viewed as anecdotal.
Of course when one is "touched" by the HS, it is NOT an easy thing to doubt BUT one ALWAYS has the option to do just that.
The HS doesn't force itself on Us.
He opens our eyes and hearts and minds, but HOW we react to that is up to Us.

[MAGSolo]

...I think the problem is that much like God providing a supernatural sign to prove his existence, if there was any clear undeniable evidence that the Bible was divinely inspired, then it removes the need for faith. If God just shows up, performs some miracles and says this is what I want you to do, then faith is no longer required. If there is some clear evidence that the bible is inspired by God, then this would remove the element of faith. What I dont understand is why is faith so important? Why cant God just show himself or literally speak to us and tell us what he wants and then let people decide if they will obey or not?

God gave humanity the greatest miraculous evidence that he exist by the diversity and complexity of all creation. We see it so much that we over look this as we do the nose on our face.

This is literally no different than ancient people saying that lighting and thunder were caused by God(s) or that terrible storms and earthquakes were acts of God(s). It is simply an appeal to ignorance. You dont know how such and such happened so it must have been God or it is evidence of God. I will say however that I do find the watchmaker argument/anthropic principle to be rather compelling which is why my only real objection to the Christian God is evil and suffering.

Faith identifies what one is loyal to the most, trusts the most, adheres to the most, loves the most, and seals one too an object. Faith is not blind because faith is tied to an object. That object can be material, theoretical science, emotional, or spiritual. Faith reveals the heart and changes the heart. That is why it is important. Human beings are creatures of faith. Too often, agnostic and atheist redefine faith as mere belief and build their case against faith by that presupposition as they do with many other things.

God did show himself about 2000 years ago through Jesus Christ. People refused then to acknowledge the visit and instead chose to lie about him, plot against him, bear false witness against him, seize him by force, put him on trial, beat him, whip him, mock him, hate him, ridicule him, demand he perform for you or else, divide his processions greedily, and crucify him.

Yes but not all people. You act as if not a single solitary soul believed when he came. You omit those who sought to only touch his robes so they could be healed, you omit those who told him to only speak the words and the thing they requested of him would be done, you omit the thief crucified along side him, that addressed Jesus as Lord, and asked him to remember him when he entered into the kingdom, you omit the multitudes that followed him wherever he went so much so that he at times had to seek escape for a moments peace. You paint a picture that only shows the view you want shown, as it seems some of you are prone to do for the sake of making a point. Very typical and predictable of you.

Pretty much what you would do today Magsolo if he appeared to you today in human form. Your words you wrote here testify to this. They reveal the show trial method of yours by your berating mocking tones and demanding God to perform for you. These things are what defines the character and nature of sin which seeks to abuse God’s goodness and twist it toward one’s own faith. What are you one loyal to the most, trust the most, adhere to the most, love the most, and seals you? Is it faith in self, faith in humanity to rule by subjective morality? Science alone? Anything without God in the picture – because man the measure of all things? What is it?
Its not that I dont want God in the picture. I used to take great comfort in my belief in God and the notion that this life was not all there was, the notion that human pain and suffering and tolerance of evil has not all been for nothing. I find the notion of a world without God to be a sad and depressing idea. The realization that when we die we are simply gone has been a very sad realization for me. The realization that millions of people have lived a life of suffering, all for nothing, has been a very depressing realization for me. I would love to know with a great deal of certainty that God exists and at best I can say that I sincerely hope he does exist. I find it very unlikely though.

God gave you life, how are you using it? How many times have you poked your finger in the eye of his grace? God’s Grace that allows independent reason, exercise of dominion, tending and taking care of things on earth? How could God be absolutely just in all he does and deny these abilities to you and I (Humanity)? So just that he lets us reap the consequences of our faith and eternally grants that fairly.

These consequences are our own doing – not God’s. Faith seals us one way or another – eternally. God would be unjust to leave us in our twisting state without intervention. So he came and exposed sin; dealt with it by the works of the Cross to reveal how a person’s faith will seal them. Which way do you desire most to head for? Eternally separated from God or reconciled?
If our salvation was that important to God, he would not leave us with nothing but a book so complicated to understand and interpret that much time researching other sources would be required to understand it. In ancient times, there were no shortage of prophets that would come and perform works in his name. But for some reason we dont get those either. We dont get to see God or Jesus, we dont get to hear from them, we dont get real legitimate prophets, we just get a book that is apparently very easily mistranslated, misinterpreted, and misunderstood. Doesnt sound like our salvation is really that important to him.

Recognize that God offers a choice. He does not force you to have faith him as you and all the militant agnostic and atheist force their views upon all humanity to accept or else. More people, children women, men died in atheist/secular Stalinist Russia and Communist China than all the wars of religion combined including the inquisition. Secular humanistic societies eventually evolve to support the most inhuman treatments upon the populace; you cite how God is a moral monster in your show trial. What about abortion and how secular humanist justifies it? Talk about the slaughter of the innocent – look in the mirror. What is your faith cemented on?

Are you going to compare murdering living breathing children and infants to stopping an unborn fetus from fully developing. So killing living children is fine if God commands it, but abortion of unborn babies is a heinous act huh? Whats the difference between one and the other?
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[MAGSolo]

How did it come to be true?

Really?
So you have THAT much "faith" in your personal faculties that your ability to reason DIVINE revelation requires no faith?

yes

Well guess what?
So do we

So you are saying you have seen God or had him speak to you?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I think you might be finally getting it. That I dont accept your answer does not mean I dont understand it. Would you agree that you can understand an argument and not agree with it? But Im willing to bet you dont even understand why I brought up Uzzah in the first place. You answered why God did it, but I didnt ask why God did it, the bible clearly states why God did it. I understand why God did it but the point is that no argument you could present would make me accept that it was good and just for God to strike Uzzah down for touching the ark. You cannot convince me that the act of Uzzah touching the ark to steady it from tipping over was an evil malicious act worthy of a punishment of death. That you think it was justified tells me that your moral compass is severely broken. That Neo can justify the slaughter of children and infants tells me that his moral compass is severely broken. You know what else this shows me? It shows me how the Church could justify its atrocious acts during the inquisition. It shows me the horrible things people are capable of and will condone because their moral compass is based on the ancient writings of ancient sheep herders who claimed to be inspired by God. Because this 2000 year old book says these things and the people who wrote them said that God inspired them, then it must be okay.

You don't really understand what you are talking about, MAG. I know you think you do, but you don't. I used to be an atheist pretty much like you, with many of the same arguments, and so I understand more than you think.

You don't sound smart, either. You come across as angry, closed-minded and unable to understand. Reading what you write is painful to me because I see how stupid I used to seem to Christians who were trying to witness to me.

I feel sorry for you.

FL

[MAGSolo]

Im not going to even dignify your remarks with a proper response because in doing so I would probably insult every Christian here and that is not my intention. Ill be the bigger man and not return your childish insults with more insults.