Evidence for God from Science

Kurieuo wrote:I stumbled across an amazing quote:

“Is birth control abortion? Definitely not. An abortion kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it. Birth control merely post-pones the beginning of life.” (Is Birth Control Abortion, Planned Parenthood pamphlet, Aug. 1963, p.1)

Except when the "birth control" is an abortafacient.

I'm baffled so many atheists support abortion. I mean, I get the gay marriage thing. Fine. I'm not sure why two gay non-religious people would want to engage in a religious ceremony, but it's not a battle worth fighting IMO. But abortion, please...

I suppose from a strict atheist worldview, all life has no meaning. So perhaps if my child comes out missing an arm I should be allowed to kill it. Come on! Somehow killing it in the womb makes everyone feel better about murder. That what it boils down to.

Wasn't it Richard Dawkins that said something like: "An adult pig has more value than a human fetus". I thought someone's signature said that around here. Well, I suppose the pig is worth a couple hundred bucks isn't it. What's a 1 year old baby worth? Our culture doesn't eat babies, so the pig is probably still worth more right?

This kind of athiest thinking just sickens me. They're the same athiests who get butt hurt when Christians remind them reality without God is absent of morality. They cry "athiests can be moral people..." and then out the other side of their mouth they place the value of an unborn baby at litterally NOTHING.

Thad, supporting such a twisted idea is totally absent of morality. You may as well steal, lie, rape, and kill as you please, because that's what atheism becomes with this way of thinking.

ryanbouma wrote:I'm baffled so many atheists support abortion. I mean, I get the gay marriage thing. Fine. I'm not sure why two gay non-religious people would want to engage in a religious ceremony, but it's not a battle worth fighting IMO. But abortion, please...

I suppose from a strict atheist worldview, all life has no meaning. So perhaps if my child comes out missing an arm I should be allowed to kill it. Come on! Somehow killing it in the womb makes everyone feel better about murder. That what it boils down to.

Wasn't it Richard Dawkins that said something like: "An adult pig has more value than a human fetus". I thought someone's signature said that around here. Well, I suppose the pig is worth a couple hundred bucks isn't it. What's a 1 year old baby worth? Our culture doesn't eat babies, so the pig is probably still worth more right?

This kind of athiest thinking just sickens me. They're the same athiests who get butt hurt when Christians remind them reality without God is absent of morality. They cry "athiests can be moral people..." and then out the other side of their mouth they place the value of an unborn baby at litterally NOTHING.

Thad, supporting such a twisted idea is totally absent of morality. You may as well steal, lie, rape, and kill as you please, because that's what atheism becomes with this way of thinking.

I think it is false to say that any atheist may lie, steal, rape, as he pleases. I don't know any atheist (and I know some) who would do such things for fun. I understand your point but it goes to no one's benefit if its loaded with accusations farfetched.

ryanbouma wrote:I'm baffled so many atheists support abortion. I mean, I get the gay marriage thing. Fine. I'm not sure why two gay non-religious people would want to engage in a religious ceremony, but it's not a battle worth fighting IMO. But abortion, please...

I suppose from a strict atheist worldview, all life has no meaning. So perhaps if my child comes out missing an arm I should be allowed to kill it. Come on! Somehow killing it in the womb makes everyone feel better about murder. That what it boils down to.

Wasn't it Richard Dawkins that said something like: "An adult pig has more value than a human fetus". I thought someone's signature said that around here. Well, I suppose the pig is worth a couple hundred bucks isn't it. What's a 1 year old baby worth? Our culture doesn't eat babies, so the pig is probably still worth more right?

This kind of athiest thinking just sickens me. They're the same athiests who get butt hurt when Christians remind them reality without God is absent of morality. They cry "athiests can be moral people..." and then out the other side of their mouth they place the value of an unborn baby at litterally NOTHING.

Thad, supporting such a twisted idea is totally absent of morality. You may as well steal, lie, rape, and kill as you please, because that's what atheism becomes with this way of thinking.

Maybe someone could make a video of process of killing the baby during abortion and show it to people.

Neo, I think you may have misinterpreted Ryan's words but I'll let him speak for himself.

1over, I'm sure you know you can find some online, but here is something for those who can stomach it (and if you can't, then it just means that there's obviously something wrong yeah?): http://pro-lifetube.com/videos/271/this-is-abortion

In any case, this thread wasn't really mean to degenerate into the topic of abortion.

Hopefully SS will get back to my last post, if he hasn't vanished...

ryanbouma wrote: Thad, supporting such a twisted idea is totally absent of morality. You may as well steal, lie, rape, and kill as you please, because that's what atheism becomes with this way of thinking.

I've put forward my ideas/reasoning's. A one day old bundle of cells is NOT a human. Hence my comment about cancer cells being classed, or not, as human.

Kurieuo wrote:Neo, I think you may have misinterpreted Ryan's words but I'll let him speak for himself.

I apologize if that's the case... my impression was that he was quite clear on the "reasoning" and where it led, and I find it discomforting because its not true.

Thadeyus wrote:

ryanbouma wrote: Thad, supporting such a twisted idea is totally absent of morality. You may as well steal, lie, rape, and kill as you please, because that's what atheism becomes with this way of thinking.

I've put forward my ideas/reasoning's. A one day old bundle of cells is NOT a human. Hence my comment about cancer cells being classed, or not, as human.

Seriously? After all the previous exchanges, and quotes for people on both sides, I find this incredulous. It is simply burying your head in the sand, which you're entitled to do.

But I do wonder whether you'd find it any less disagreeable killing a conceived human life after 3 weeks which already has a heartbeat. Or what about after one month which is when most women find out they're pregnant. Do you even find it disagreeable to kill the conceived human life at 20 weeks, or would you agree right up to full-term? Where do you draw the line?

Kurieuo wrote:Seriously? After all the previous exchanges, and quotes for people on both sides, I find this incredulous. It is simply burying your head in the sand, which you're entitled to do.

But I do wonder whether you'd find it any less disagreeable killing a conceived human life after 3 weeks which already has a heartbeat. Or what about after one month which is when most women find out they're pregnant. Do you even find it disagreeable to kill the conceived human life at 20 weeks, or would you agree right up to full-term? Where do you draw the line?

One of my points is that there are no real clear lines.

So...before three weeks....before there are any things resembling organs etc...there is just a bundle of cells.....This is human life?

Thadeyus wrote:

Kurieuo wrote:Seriously? After all the previous exchanges, and quotes for people on both sides, I find this incredulous. It is simply burying your head in the sand, which you're entitled to do.

But I do wonder whether you'd find it any less disagreeable killing a conceived human life after 3 weeks which already has a heartbeat. Or what about after one month which is when most women find out they're pregnant. Do you even find it disagreeable to kill the conceived human life at 20 weeks, or would you agree right up to full-term? Where do you draw the line?

One of my points is that there are no real clear lines.

So...before three weeks....before there are any things resembling organs etc...there is just a bundle of cells.....This is human life?

But there is a "clear line". It's painfully simple actually. Before conception=no life. The moment of conception=new human life has begun.

RickD wrote:But there is a "clear line". It's painfully simple actually. Before conception=no life. The moment of conception=new human life has begun.

So...if the immediate bundle of cells upon conception is 'Human life'...why/how can we remove cancer cells?

Also....what about all the myriad ties when even after fertilization, the blastocyte does not survive?

Much cheers to all.

Yes I think you did misunderstand me Neo. I know quite a few atheists who wouldn't dream of such things. I was using hyperbole to make the point that abortion is crossing the line, and the only way to justify it is that there is no moral giver, which then means any crime can be justified. I by no means believe Thad or any other atheist actually believes this.

Thad, here in Canada the legal definition of human life is once it has taken its first breath. Sick! Many atheists would agree that a fetus is less valuable than an adult pig. If you're not one of these people, that is a very good step in the right direction. Unfortunately for you, I think it's easy to show human features very very soon after conception. But I hope you can see why pro-lifers have a problem with "terminating" a pregnancy so late. As I alluded to in my previous post. What the difference between pre-first breath and post-first breath. How about when the baby is 3 weeks old? It's not like they'll remember it. Will they feel pain? Will an 8 month old fetus feel pain?

Sorry to rant. It just sickens me. Of all the things society condones that is secular, I just don't understand this one. Lust, greed, drugs, drinking, sex, you name it, I get it, you don't worship the same God I do. But abortion

I read what you're saying ryanbouma.

My 'comments/'concerns' stem with preventative measures both before and immediately after the act to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

When is a bundle of cells human? The image I gather from most of these posts before is that ANY bundle of cells is ALWAYS human. Which leads my mind into various problems.

After that, there are a huge range of general medical complications which can all effect(Affect?) things.

So....how much genetic damage should be cared for? Those born blind...or deaf...or missing limbs...or with other , even later onset genetic problems? If such things can be determined before the pregnancy is developed beyond two to three weeks? What call then for the parents? (Note, I say detection BEFORE a certain time). What about other things which affect both the mother and the developing life? Etc, etc. It's all very complicated.

Though, the wonderful thing is, that medical science is always advancing and being amazing/wonderful things at even this stage of things.

*Oh, and...um. I don't worship any god/goddess/gods at all....Not just not the one you're into.

Much cheers to all.

ryanbouma wrote: Wasn't it Richard Dawkins that said something like: "An adult pig has more value than a human fetus". I thought someone's signature said that around here. Well, I suppose the pig is worth a couple hundred bucks isn't it. What's a 1 year old baby worth? Our culture doesn't eat babies, so the pig is probably still worth more right?

I've heard Dawkins allude to this usually just as a nod to Peter Singer's arguments. It's not so much based on a cash sum as it is on the capctity to suffer or enjoy life.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av22cRQNBiQ[/youtube]

Thadeyus wrote:I read what you're saying ryanbouma.

My 'comments/'concerns' stem with preventative measures both before and immediately after the act to prevent the pregnancy in the first place.

When is a bundle of cells human? The image I gather from most of these posts before is that ANY bundle of cells is ALWAYS human. Which leads my mind into various problems.

After that, there are a huge range of general medical complications which can all effect(Affect?) things.

So....how much genetic damage should be cared for? Those born blind...or deaf...or missing limbs...or with other , even later onset genetic problems? If such things can be determined before the pregnancy is developed beyond two to three weeks? What call then for the parents? (Note, I say detection BEFORE a certain time). What about other things which affect both the mother and the developing life? Etc, etc. It's all very complicated.

Though, the wonderful thing is, that medical science is always advancing and being amazing/wonderful things at even this stage of things.

*Oh, and...um. I don't worship any god/goddess/gods at all....Not just not the one you're into.

Much cheers to all.

Well you seem to be thinking about it more than most. Most people I've heard on this subject think as long as it's in Mom's belly it's her right to kill it despite the featus' age. From an atheistic perspective, I can appreciate that as long as it's just a clump as cells it doesn't matter. Which would be very early on in the pregnancy only. Maybe only days. I would then put it into the same catergory as prostitution, legalizing drugs, gay marriage, sex outside of marriage, etc. where Christians believe it's wrong, but the moral basis is religiously founded (ie. They're not hurting anyone, so they can make the choice (How the athiest views it)). So then the argument is down to whether or not the clump of cells has rights. Cancer is a harmful clump of cells. A human embryo is a a clump of cells that will grow into a human being with thoughts, feelings, etc. Two very different things IMO. So the argument becomes much stickier.

Yes, I'm aware you don't worship any god. I just meant that people who condone those activities aren't bound to the teachings of the Bible.

So would you say abortion is wrong past say 4 months pregnancy? That seems well beyond the grey line to me.