Evidence for God from Science

PaulSacramento wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:[Ezekiel 28:12] says that Lucifer was created perfect, without sin, just thought I might point that out.

That was poetic licence on the part of the writer.
Only God is perfect.

I thought perfect in this instance was to mean sinless?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:[Ezekiel 28:12] says that Lucifer was created perfect, without sin, just thought I might point that out.

That was poetic licence on the part of the writer.
Only God is perfect.

I thought perfect in this instance was to mean sinless?

Yes Daniel son. Mr. Miyagi say you are correct. The word transrated to "perfect", mean sinress, or without bremish, Daniel son. Wax on, wax off.

Me tink PaulS drinking too much sake.

I don't see that it necessarily follows that beings who start out the same will remain the same if they have the free will to make concious decisions.

Maybe you're right, but decisions only shows to the others what we CHOOSE to be, not who we really are inside our deepest thoughts and wills. And this is problematic, since it may mean even an angel which decides to choose God while having, let's say, a 60% of will to rebel, will spend eternity internally fighting against this 60% will to rebel. And that doesn't sound pleasant...at least not for an eternity, I guess...

I guess identical twins would be our best example of two exact copies who are raised the same but have divergent personalities.

Well, that was the main idea of this theory: even identically raised beings have different personalities. Chosen by...who? Randomness, we assume. So, their tendencies are not their fault. Their choices are a whole new story, but their tendencies is something they can't be blamed for...at least, not technically.

I don't think decisions are always based on agreeing with something, maybe fear of consequences, maybe social constructs or some other reason I cannot think of right now.

Ok, I was sort of ambiguous. Decisions can also be based in feelings like...I don't know, something like "I really feel like doing this...I'm going to do it!". But the first-personality-second-decision thing is still there.

Do you think we should excuse a psychopath if he happens to kill someone, after all is he not just dancing to his DNA, is he at fault and should he be locked away from society? I feel like if the angels get a free pass then the same rules must be universal and apply to us and why would we feel that we require justice when it's not really that person fault as he was just "born that way"?

I'm not sure...I've been an atheist for most of my lifetime, so I'm still undecided on whether we, humans, have free will or not. We are a couple of articles which pretty much state that we are much more controlled by our genes than we think we are: http://www.cracked.com/article_21053_5- ... -dont.html / http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-problems- ... ere-raised / http://www.cracked.com/article_19889_6- ... fancy.html

this has been very productive as a thought experiment, so I must applaud you on it, I have really enjoyed the exchange so far.

Dude, thank you! Seriously, thanks. I've also felt, let's say, enriched by this debate. Which is why I wish more people were part of it...this forum doesn't seem to be as followed as some others. Still, good time invested here!

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:[Ezekiel 28:12] says that Lucifer was created perfect, without sin, just thought I might point that out.

That was poetic licence on the part of the writer.
Only God is perfect.

I thought perfect in this instance was to mean sinless?

Still poetic licence.
That would mean that ALL are perfect until they sin.

BY the way, some scholars view this as a commentary on Adam as opposed to Satan.

I think that depends on what you two are meaning by perfect. lucifer was created perfect to his nature and function and became imperfected through sin (twisting of his own nature from himself)
People are born sinless and perfect in their nature, until they sin and twist themselves into imperfection and reap death because of it.
And it's not 'randomness' that caused his downfall. It was him exercising his own free will to pervert himself and bring himself out of the perfection of his nature.
Did God make satan sin? Most certainly not. By having the will to determine what the self will do, means that satan, as well as everybody, has the ability to choose. And choosing to go against a natures perfection is sin. If we had no choice to pervert ourselves, we would not have free will.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote:[Ezekiel 28:12] says that Lucifer was created perfect, without sin, just thought I might point that out.

That was poetic licence on the part of the writer.
Only God is perfect.

I thought perfect in this instance was to mean sinless?

Still poetic licence.
That would mean that ALL are perfect until they sin.

BY the way, some scholars view this as a commentary on Adam as opposed to Satan.

Yes true it still is poetic and thank you for the other tid bit, I did not know that.

Cheers

And it's not 'randomness' that caused his downfall. It was him exercising his own free will to pervert himself and bring himself out of the perfection of his nature.

I didn't say the opposite. I just said Satan's personality was created by randomness. Not his choices; his personality.

And choosing to go against a natures perfection is sin.

Oh, my...I do know this is what christians generally think about sin...but, seriously, sometimes I wonder how on earth can angels "live" or appreciate existence when being so severe on themselves. It must be suffocating, sometimes...

Danieltwotwenty wrote:
[Ezekiel 28:12] says that Lucifer was created perfect, without sin, just thought I might point that out.

That was poetic licence on the part of the writer.

Oh, here comes the is-the-Bible-to-take-literally-or-to-interpret issue again. Boy, do I hate that...sometimes I feel as if God can blame us for interpreting the Bible in a "wrong" way. As if we had those English classes to teach us how to interpret a particular text. Like...should our fate after death be decided by our skills on interpreting poetical texts? Hate to think this, but it seems to be that way...

I feel tension, or am I wrong?

I didn't say the opposite. I just said Satan's personality was created by randomness. Not his choices; his personality.

Gotcha. his personality was created by God. I was trying to point out that evil/sin is expressed when one de-natures themselves. So evil/sin is an explanation of not following the nature of ones essence. Otherwise put, turning from Gods basic intentions for something/someone from its/their nature. The absence of God is what this 'evil' is. And what is left in the absence of God? All that is not good. Free will is the key to this 'existence' of evil which in theory had the potential to never exist. In practice it came out from a creation that had the ability to live in their nature, or pervert (or twist) their nature into something it's not.

Oh, my...I do know this is what christians generally think about sin...but, seriously, sometimes I wonder how on earth can angels "live" or appreciate existence when being so severe on themselves. It must be suffocating, sometimes...

What do you mean? I'm not understanding.

I feel tension, or am I wrong?

I think you're wrong? I dunno.

Oh, here comes the is-the-Bible-to-take-literally-or-to-interpret issue again. Boy, do I hate that...

Yeah, me too. Maybe this was the tension Dan was talking about? I think the meaning is always literal and expressed through many ways. I don't see any warrant to take poetic license with the word perfection in this instance.

should our fate after death be decided by our skills on interpreting poetical texts?

Nope. The texts that matter for salvation are plain, fortunately. We can be wrong about everything else and still be saved. So rest assured here.

Gotcha. his personality was created by God.

Say what?! Does that mean God intentionally created a being with a huge tendency to rebel against Him?

The absence of God is what this 'evil' is.

That reminds me of that story mr. Deem told; the one in which the christian argues with his teacher by saying stuff like "darkness is the absence of light" (or vice-versa, I don't remember) and "evil is the absence of good". Personally, I never bought that. For a couple of reasons, one of which is that the opposite can be said and still sound logic. Like...good is the absence of evil, light is the absence of darkness, etc...

What do you mean? I'm not understanding.

Well, as you've probably felt, doing something that is against your strongest convictions can be suffocating. Like, you are fighting against yourself. Like, no peace of mind. And considering yourself "sinful" whenever you commit one single mistake must be a terrible feeling...


Also...what tension? I didn't feel tense. Was it my choice of words? If it was, I'm sorry. I'm all about peace and love, I don't want to bring tension. This is supposed to be a debate, not a discussion.

That reminds me of that story mr. Deem told; the one in which the christian argues with his teacher by saying stuff like "darkness is the absence of light" (or vice-versa, I don't remember) and "evil is the absence of good". Personally, I never bought that. For a couple of reasons, one of which is that the opposite can be said and still sound logic. Like...good is the absence of evil, light is the absence of darkness, etc...

The whole "evil is the absence of Good" is based on the ideal quality of something.
A good example is eyesight.
20/20 is perfect eyesight ( perfect in the sense of what is ideal)
Bad eye sight is the when it is not ideal, so Bad eyesight is what happens when there is an absence of "good" eyesight.

So, a person being Good is the ideal nature of that person, the absence of good leads to evil.
One can't really say that Good is the absence of evil because we are going against what is the ideal and starring form the "not ideal".
using the eyesight analogy, it would be like saying that good eyesight is the absence of bad eye's.
Know what I mean?

Say what?! Does that mean God intentionally created a being with a huge tendency to rebel against Him?

I wouldn't word it like that.
Every self-determinate being has the ability to rebel against Him. He made creatures whose essence of formal cause included self-determination.
aka, we all have the ability (and necessary tendency in this fallen world) to rebel against Him.

Mr Deem story: Paul is explaining it most righteously ^_^

Well, as you've probably felt, doing something that is against your strongest convictions can be suffocating. Like, you are fighting against yourself. Like, no peace of mind. And considering yourself "sinful" whenever you commit one single mistake must be a terrible feeling..

That depends on what you're talking about.. Are you talking about humans or angels or demons?
What you describe makes me think of a normal sinful human that doesn't believe in Jesus. Christians who believe in Jesus know all sins are already forgiven and in that reality is when our chains are broken and we realize we can let them go. And we will carry on with a sinful nature until we die but that doesn't convict us. Because we are already His, and He is our God. Sincere repentance which shows growth with God he accepts and justifies through whats already been done.

Angels are free in knowing the laws of reality and having a nature not inclined to sin.
Demons distorted their nature and chose imperfection, by making it.
Humans get to choose to follow God and be free like the angels, or follow the demonic lie and help create a living death for everyone around you

This would have to be the most interesting thread I have read on the forums, the questions were great, the answers superb, and everyone stayed (pretty much) on topic.

I don't know the exact meaning of randomness, but if it implies a free and practical range of options, it certainly is part of how God creates and maintains creation.

As far as personality is concerned, the sinful personality, is actually a loss of personality, because it makes the victim (and perpetrator) closed minded and pernicious. The flexibility is gone... the ability to accept variety is gone...fear comes in and eventually malice is the only surviving trait.

So all personality as God created is a vibrant, easy going, positive, creative, accepting, and courteous disposition, which all the sinless naturally have. Proof of this is found in animals when they are treated with care and respect, when they sense they are safe and loved, they are just the best personalities. I have tamed wild and 'emotionally' damaged animals, to help them be what God made them - really cool.

Satan was really cool, until he thought he was, and now he is a total so and so.

don't know the exact meaning of randomness, but if it implies a free and practical range of options, it certainly is part of how God creates and maintains creation.

I could have been reading wrong how randomness was being interpreted too .
I think the underlined described is our formal cause. It shows in how we are images of God. We have the infinite ability of many forms of creation that start within ourselves. Now we actualize those ideas by using the tools we have within and around us to make the idea real, or perfected So in the sense of randomness, from our perspective we might see it that way. But I'd argue it's not random at all, just infinite. Which fits into 'how God creates and maintains creation'.