Why?

[Santa]

How ever you must ask, can you prove God does not exist?

It's impossible to prove He doesn't exist.

Just as it's impossible to prove Santa Claus, leprechauns, the tooth fairy, or in fact anything doesn't exist.

Obviously. :) But you can make a realistic decision on whether or not they are... and based on what I've said above, I fail to see how the christian god can exist. Surely an actual god would be more competent than that.

[Gabrielman]

So what if your parents sent you to another country after you were born so that you weren't forced to to be with them - and waited until you found your way back? It'd be a out there wouldn't it? Isn't that essentially the same thing that god's supposedly done?

It all seems a bit pointless to me. Weren't 'angels' created in 'heaven'? Apparently they were able to make a choice on whether or not they'd like to be with god. But the thing is, they at least knew of his existence. We don't, which seems pretty unfair.

To answer the first part, no. God has time and again in the Bible made Himself known to mankind. He did not put us here and then say "You're on your own now, find your way back if you can!" He instead placed us here and got involved with our lives.
Yes angels were created in heaven, and they still failed to be perfect. Again God has made Himself know thourgout the Bible.
One thing I must wonder is this, we are nothing but a bunch of atoms comprised of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Yet we are alive, we have conciousness, we (unlike many atoms) have thoughts feelings and emotions. Why are we alive? I ask this because there is no way to bring a bunch of atoms to life and make them think and feel. If I was given every atom I needed to make a human, and with all the instuctions on how to assemble them, I would still fail to bring it to life.
That's all I got for now, I'll try more later.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/answers.html
Try this. There is a lot there, but Rich does a better job than I at conveing his thoughts.
Keep asking and searching, but be open to answers as well. I hope you learn from and enjoy this site.

[Santa]

To answer the first part, no. God has time and again in the Bible made Himself known to mankind. He did not put us here and then say "You're on your own now, find your way back if you can!" He instead placed us here and got involved with our lives.
Yes angels were created in heaven, and they still failed to be perfect. Again God has made Himself know thourgout the Bible.

That's the thing though, not everyone does know him through the bible. That's why I'm led to believe the christian god is a bit incompetent. And even those like me who know of the bible aren't convinced due to what I've said in my previous posts. So no, he hasn't got involved.

I'd like to know why angels got a better deal to us as well. Why weren't they placed on earth? And how exactly were they disobedient anyway?

One thing I must wonder is this, we are nothing but a bunch of atoms comprised of protons, neutrons, and electrons. Yet we are alive, we have conciousness, we (unlike many atoms) have thoughts feelings and emotions. Why are we alive? I ask this because there is no way to bring a bunch of atoms to life and make them think and feel. If I was given every atom I needed to make a human, and with all the instuctions on how to assemble them, I would still fail to bring it to life.

Yeah, I've thought about that. That doesn't mean we've been given a soul from the christian god though. Because if that's what consciousness is, then animals must have one too. They're conscious as well. So how exactly are animals judged? What happens after they die?

Thanks for the replies btw. :)

[Gabrielman]

Sorry I don't have all the answers you need, but I will try my best to do what I can.

Yeah, I've thought about that. That doesn't mean we've been given a soul from the christian god though. Because if that's what consciousness is, then animals must have one too. They're conscious as well. So how exactly are animals judged? What happens after they die?

Ya know I used to ask that question myself, what will happen to animals when they die. The Bible says they have souls, but I have wondered how they would be judged. This leads me to ask, do they know the difference in right and wrong? I see it like this. I know that killing a man is wrong, and if I enjoy it, it is really wrong. However does an animal know that it is wrong to do? Can an animal enjoy killing someone? We can teach them that if we don't like something they do that they will be punished, but does that constitute know right and wrong?
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... pmsky.html
This may help, but it is a little long. It is a disscussion on human nature and the nature of other animals. The way I see it, all animals are ignorant of right and wrong so they will go to heaven out of the inability to know what they are doing is wrong. The humans are the ones who ate from the tree of knowledge, animals did not. Think of it like this, who starts wars over petty things, who kills over an insult? Humans, I have yet to find an animal who would kill me if I called it stupid. That's only what I think though, don't take all I say as fact, it is only my best shot at things.

That's the thing though, not everyone does know him through the bible. That's why I'm led to believe the christian god is a bit incompetent. And even those like me who know of the bible aren't convinced due to what I've said in my previous posts. So no, he hasn't got involved.

I'd like to know why angels got a better deal to us as well. Why weren't they placed on earth? And how exactly were they disobedient anyway?

When you say "And how exactly were they disobedient anyway?" Are you referring to the angels? That would be, well there were many who were disobedient, and in many ways. Lucifer tried to become God, (an impossible task to be sure but he isn't the brightest bulb in the box). There are others as well, but that is too much to write and I have not had my tea yet so I am a little tired.
I will write more later, please keep asking and testing, maybe we can help. I am glad that you seek answers, and that you challenge us. God bless!

[Santa]

Oh ok. So that'd mean cockroaches, dust mites etc would be in heaven too? I think I'd prefer they were wiped out of existence.

Wouldn't it have been much more simple for God to have created all humans as angels? That way the whole judgement process would be dealt with a lot quicker. And it'd be more simple... there wouldn't be any cases of someone not being aware of god, would there?

It's stuff like that that leads me to believe the christian god simply can't exist. If there were a god, they'd be a lot more straight forward than that.

[Gabrielman]

Oh ok. So that'd mean cockroaches, dust mites etc would be in heaven too? I think I'd prefer they were wiped out of existence.

lol, I don't like it either, but the Word says they will be there. They will not be as abnoxious of course, but still I see your point on that.

Wouldn't it have been much more simple for God to have created all humans as angels? That way the whole judgment process would be dealt with a lot quicker. And it'd be more simple... there wouldn't be any cases of someone not being aware of god, would there?

It's stuff like that that leads me to believe the christian god simply can't exist. If there were a god, they'd be a lot more straight forward than that.

I never have seen God as simple, and there are sects of Christianity that claim we are all angels incarnent to be tested after lucifer's fall... not sure I agree with that idea though. Anyway, God is complex and he does things in a certin way for reasons, ones I cannot understand, that are hard to know. I believe someone on this board would be able to answer why he doesn't do things straigt forward. I myself am an OEC and believe that God used the Big Bang (or rather caused it) to create the universe. I think He is very complex. I would not like the idea of a simple God, it would say that it is not intelegent enough to do things the hard way.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/creation.html
This will take you to a page on creation, OEC is supported here as is science. This shows how complex God really is, so far as why His plan seems complex, maybe we just see it that way. One must also ask, if man created the Christian God, then wouldn't they have made Him easier to please?
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/unicorns.html This is a link that I read long ago when I was having doubts. It may help. It answers a lot imo.
Looking forward to more posts, God bless!

[Santa]

I would not like the idea of a simple God, it would say that it is not intelegent enough to do things the hard way.

I see what you mean, but still, that doesn't mean he HAS to choose the most difficult path for everything. If he hadn't chosen the most difficult then there wouldn't have to be any exceptions for people who haven't heard of the bible, or can't read it for whatever reason. The angels seem to have had it more simple than us. It still doesn't sound realistic to me.

I don't think a god would need to separate his people from him in order to give them free will. It's not as if knowing him from the moment your created is going to mean you're forced to like or obey him - the whole angels thing proves this. They were able to 'disobey', they weren't forced to be with him either.

So why are we here? It just doesn't make sense. And the christian god expects everyone to seek and follow his word based on so many unanswered questions and uncertainty. It's too far-fetched for me.

[Gabrielman]

I see what you mean, but still, that doesn't mean he HAS to choose the most difficult path for everything. If he hadn't chosen the most difficult then there wouldn't have to be any exceptions for people who haven't heard of the bible, or can't read it for whatever reason. The angels seem to have had it more simple than us. It still doesn't sound realistic to me.

Well it could be harder than it is now. He could demand we be perfect without His help, and He could demand we do impossible things. He does not do so. It is not as difficult as people make it out to be. Also I would point out that I don't entirely agree with Rich when he disscusses what happenes to those who have never heard of God. I believe in the concept that they will be given another chance only if they never heard of God. That comes during the 1000 year regin of Christ.

I don't think a god would need to separate his people from him in order to give them free will. It's not as if knowing him from the moment your created is going to mean you're forced to like or obey him - the whole angels thing proves this. They were able to 'disobey', they weren't forced to be with him either.

So why are we here? It just doesn't make sense. And the christian god expects everyone to seek and follow his word based on so many unanswered questions and uncertainty. It's too far-fetched for me.

Too many unanswered questions and uncertainty... hmmm... ask your questions at the approprite threads. If you have questions we would be more than happy to answer them. Not just me though as I do not have all the answers myself. Actually my faith is very complicated. However the way we see it is that He is not seperate from us, He dwells with us. Not in his truest form, as that would be too much to handle for me at least, but He makes Himself mannafest in our lives. Many of your doubts can be answered on the main site and I encourage you to go there and then post a thread if the site failed to answer your questions. That is the coa I take to issues, or at least I try, (at times I don't look it up, and regret doing so latter as after a post I look it up and find my answer).
Anyway, God bless, and keep asking.

[Santa]

I don't really have any specific questions - just trouble accepting the entire concept of a god working this way. (i.e. handing out a bible and waiting for people to be 'saved'). It seems pointless and I don't see why people should be 'saved' based on whether or not they're skeptical of the bible.

[Gabrielman]

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/gospel.html
Try the first part "What is God's plan for our lives?" It points out the simple thing that God cannot be with us directly because of our sin. This is also why lucifer and the fallen have been cast out of heaven. A truly holy and ritious God cannot be in the pressence of sin. Once sin entered the world, God left. He isn't just handing out a Bible and waiting for you to be saved, actually if anything what you believe goes to show the complacency of the Church. It is the job of the Church to witness, they have done less and less of this. They are also to answer questions that others pose, yet many "Christians" will just say it is not their problem. It is the Church's job to go out and seek the unbeliever and tell them the truth of God, and answer any questions they have. I do not like it when some one "plants the seed of faith" so to speak, and then just leaves. If a farmer only planted and did not till the land and watch over the growing seed, it may not make it.
I like your question, it is legit and very good. I urge you once more to read many of the articles on the main site and get some more insight. I myself am learning and have not enough knowledge to fully adress this question.
I ask anyone on this board who can answer to do so.
God bless and great questions! If you keep asking you will find answers, you are on the right path.

[Santa]

Petty sins are human nature though... it's impossible not to sin. We're basically doomed before we're even born. I don't see why there's a need to 'accept christ' in order to be saved.

I didn't like what I read here:

Isn't loving my fellow man good enough to get to heaven?

Many people feel they have fulfilled the second commandment of God, in loving other people, but to a large degree, they have ignored the first and most important commandment - to love God with all your heart. We are created in the image of God to love God and love one another. If we choose to ignore God and not love Him, we are rejecting Him, and as such will not be forced to live with Him in heaven, but will be eternally separated from Him and His children (those who love Him). Many churches do good things, and many people do good works in their church and in their community.

OK, so god doesn't want to force us to live with him in heaven, but on the other hand, he's practically forcing you to love him... or else you're 'eternally separated' from him? C'mon, admit that isn't fair. Just because people like me may never come to a conclusion on whether or not the christian god exists, that shouldn't mean we're rejected. If I were sure of his existence I'd have no problem 'living' with him - as long as he doesn't have B.O. :p

[Gabrielman]

Petty sins are human nature though... it's impossible not to sin. We're basically doomed before we're even born. I don't see why there's a need to 'accept christ' in order to be saved.

We are sinners by nature, that is a fact, but we can become saved through the sacrifice of God on the cross. If we accept Christ we are saved from our sins, they are forgiven, even the petty ones.

OK, so god doesn't want to force us to live with him in heaven, but on the other hand, he's practically forcing you to love him... or else you're 'eternally separated' from him? C'mon, admit that isn't fair. Just because people like me may never come to a conclusion on whether or not the christian god exists, that shouldn't mean we're rejected. If I were sure of his existence I'd have no problem 'living' with him - as long as he doesn't have B.O. :p

Would it be fair for Him to force you to live with Him for eternity? He is willing to let you choose, Him, or not Him. Would you rather spend eternity wanting to be with God when you could have accepted Him in life, or would you rather be with Him for all time? Is it fair that you only get one chance to make that decsion? You only get one chance to make many decisions, God gives you your entire life to make this one, many must be made in a split second. Want another try at running that red light while the cop was watching? Too bad, he caught you. Not fair? No, it is fair. The cop gave you only that one time to screw it up and then he penalized you. God knows you will mess up, and He will forgive you time and agian, and He will not punish you until the end, and that's only if you don't repent. If you repent, you are free. God loves us enough to pardon our sins, if we want to be pardoned and if we want to be with Him. No one can make the choice to accept Him for you, but you.
That's all for now, though I wanted to write more, I hope you get the point I am trying to make here.
God bless!

[Santa]

That's the thing though. I realise he's not forcing you to live with him, but the naturally skeptical are a bit disadvantaged. Seriously, if I was positive of his existence, like some of you here, I'd have no problem living with him. But due to the fact there's no rock-hard evidence I can't come to believe it. Therefore, I'll be separated from him and anyone who follows him, based simply on the fact that I was skeptical. I'm not rejecting him, I'm just not sure of his existence. So is it fair that I'm not allowed to 'be with' him because of that? No.

And due to the unfairness of it, I can't come to believe that this god actually exists.

[Gabrielman]

Ask this, is it fair for you to not accept Him and still want to be with Him? He wants you to ask, but you also need to look at the answers with an open mind, otherwise you will always be skeptical. I once asked questions, and I approched with an open mind, and I found proof He is real. When you read the articals on the main site you need to think on them openly. Ask yourself this about the universe, why? The very same question you asked here. I read through a lot before I was truly satisfied, but I only found that satisfaction because I came with the idea that I will follow the evidence. Is it fair for you to say that without evidence you won't believe He is there, but if He is He should just let you in anyway? You really should look at all the articles you can on the main site and read them with an open mind and see the evidence for yourself. All you will find on a disscussion board are short writtings of many people who don't have the time or energy to explain everything in detail.

but the naturally skeptical are a bit disadvantaged

Did you know that the author of this site was a natural skeptic? He was an agnostic non-Christian, and through science (not people preaching Jesus to him) came to faith. Look this stuff up, read, learn, and then tell me what you think of it all.
God bless.

[Santa]

Trust me, I have an open mind. :)
I wouldn't still be here otherwise.

Is it realistic or fair of god to expect me to accept him when I can't ever be 100% certain? Shouldn't him knowing that I'd accept him the moment I had proof he existed (after death, obviously) be enough? Why should I be rejected for not coming to the conclusion earlier due to the fact that I wasn't ever able to decide? It doesn't matter if I read in any of the articles on this site, none of it will convince me entirely.

If you ask me, being a good person should be enough. It'd be more ideal for him to ask if you 'accept' him once you die, rather than expecting that from you any earlier.