Were the Nephilim and the Sumerian mythical kings somehow related?

[PaulSacramento]

And why this mating was so wrong that it brought the wrath of God on all people AND how giants ( one possible interpretation) came of out of it.
Also how it the mating resulted in so much wickedness and then we have to address what Jude and Peter were talking about when the said that angels were punished for their unnatural acts.
And if sons of god always means people ( we know that in Job it doesn't for example), we have to address other issues after that.

[RickD]

Might as well jump in here, since I have discussed this elsewhere.

The only reason the change the meaning of sons of god to something else is to avoid the supernatural element and one should ask themselves WHY they have an issue with the supernatural in the bible.

The term "son of God" or "sons of God" is most often used in Scripture to refer to God's people.

I do happen to like Heiser, so let me quote Heiser

Adam is therefore the son of God (cp. Luke 3:38) — just like Israel will be called the son of God (Exod 4:23) — just like the king of Israel is called the the son of God (Psalm 2:7) — just like Jesus, the messianic king/servant, is the son of God, so that those who believe in him can be called the sons/children of God (John 1:12; Rom 8:14, 19; Gal 3:26; 1 John 3:1-3).

It is actually Heiser's note regarding Luke's reference to Adam as the "son of God" that led me to the conclusion that the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 are the descendents of Adam who Luke describes as "the son of God".

If you look at Genesis 6:1-4 in that light then this passage becomes additional Scriptural support for the existence of humans outside the line of Adam.
"sons of God" refers to the descendents of the line of Adam
"daughters of men" refers to the indigenous human population

The main presupposition here is that the phrase "sons of God" means the same thing in Genesis 6 that it means elsewhere in Scripture.

You are reading the NT and other passages BACK into Genesis, which isn't standard practice.
Not saying you are wrong mind you, but you know what I mean.
Yet, we must address ALL the other passages in which sons of god means divine beings and why here, in its natural reading, it means otherwise.

Paul,

Why do you translate sons of God to mean angels, in this instance? We're talking about Genesis 6. What part of the first 5 chapters of Genesis leads you to believe the proper interpretation is angels?

[PaulSacramento]

Rick, I didn't realize I did.
Angels is a generic term meaning messenger, as you know.
We tend to call all divine beings, other than God, angels because it was common practice in the OT and second temple literature BUT isn't 100% accurate, but that is a different thread.

[RickD]

Rick, I didn't realize I did.
Angels is a generic term meaning messenger, as you know.
We tend to call all divine beings, other than God, angels because it was common practice in the OT and second temple literature BUT isn't 100% accurate, but that is a different thread.

I'm sorry for the confusion in my question. That's not my point. I'm asking why you translate sons of God, to mean something other than humans(fallen angels, or whatever you want to call them)?

In other words, what in the first 5 chapters of Genesis, gives you the basis for the idea that sons of God in Genesis 6, is referring to non-humans, by letting Genesis interpret itself?

Do you understand what I'm asking?

[PaulSacramento]

Rick, I didn't realize I did.
Angels is a generic term meaning messenger, as you know.
We tend to call all divine beings, other than God, angels because it was common practice in the OT and second temple literature BUT isn't 100% accurate, but that is a different thread.

I'm sorry for the confusion in my question. That's not my point. I'm asking why you translate sons of God, to mean something other than humans(fallen angels, or whatever you want to call them)?

In other words, what in the first 5 chapters of Genesis, gives you the basis for the idea that sons of God in Genesis 6, is referring to non-humans, by letting Genesis interpret itself?

Do you understand what I'm asking?

Oh, got it.
Well, if you read genesis without reading back into ( even without JOB), you don't read anyone group of humans being called "sons of god".
The first time we hear of this is Genesis 6 and it contrast with "daughters of men".
Even on that alone, there is a clear distinction in state:
Daughters of Man - Human
Sons of God- not human.

We know that God had helpers in Heaven, we know that because of the use of "US" in Genesis 1 and the Tower of Babel story.

In short, there is enough to suggest the sons of God are nor human but some sort of divine beings.


Now, taking Genesis alone, like you asked me to do, where would you get that they were human when they are contrasted against the "daughters of man"?

[PaulSacramento]

Look what your buddy Matt States:
https://carm.org/what-are-nephilim

[DBowling]

Might as well jump in here, since I have discussed this elsewhere.

The only reason the change the meaning of sons of god to something else is to avoid the supernatural element and one should ask themselves WHY they have an issue with the supernatural in the bible.

The term "son of God" or "sons of God" is most often used in Scripture to refer to God's people.

I do happen to like Heiser, so let me quote Heiser

Adam is therefore the son of God (cp. Luke 3:38) — just like Israel will be called the son of God (Exod 4:23) — just like the king of Israel is called the the son of God (Psalm 2:7) — just like Jesus, the messianic king/servant, is the son of God, so that those who believe in him can be called the sons/children of God (John 1:12; Rom 8:14, 19; Gal 3:26; 1 John 3:1-3).

It is actually Heiser's note regarding Luke's reference to Adam as the "son of God" that led me to the conclusion that the "sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 are the descendents of Adam who Luke describes as "the son of God".

If you look at Genesis 6:1-4 in that light then this passage becomes additional Scriptural support for the existence of humans outside the line of Adam.
"sons of God" refers to the descendents of the line of Adam
"daughters of men" refers to the indigenous human population

The main presupposition here is that the phrase "sons of God" means the same thing in Genesis 6 that it means elsewhere in Scripture.

You are reading the NT and other passages BACK into Genesis, which isn't standard practice.
Not saying you are wrong mind you, but you know what I mean.
Yet, we must address ALL the other passages in which sons of god means divine beings and why here, in its natural reading, it means otherwise.

I disagree...
I think it is totally legitimate to use the NT to properly understand the meaning of OT passages. There are many situations where the NT sheds light on the true meaning of OT passages.
I also disagree that the 'natural reading' of Genesis 6 implies that the "sons of God" are divine beings.
There is nowhere else in Genesis where "sons of God" refers to divine beings. You are required to read other passages back into Genesis to support the premise that the Genesis 6 "sons of God" were "divine beings".
In fact the strongest support for the theory that angels mated with humans comes from extrascriptural tradition and not from Scripture itself.

For me Luke 3:38 is key to understanding who the "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are referring to, since the divinely inspired Luke explicitly refers to Adam as the "son of God".

I do agree with you that Genesis 6 does differentiate between "the sons of God" and the "daughters of men". And I do agree with you that "daughters of men" does refer to generic humanity.
The implication to me from the 'natural reading' of the text is that (as I've said before)
"sons of God" refers to the descendents of the line of Adam... ie God's people
"daughters of men" refers to the indigenous human population who do not know God

And the corruption of God's people by intermarrying with a sinful indigenous population in Genesis 6, is very similar to what we see later in Scripture when God's people (in the latter case Israel) are corrupted when they marry and adopt the pagan customs of the wicked indigenous population of Palestine.

[DBowling]

Well, if you read genesis without reading back into ( even without JOB), you don't read anyone group of humans being called "sons of god".

Two quick points... If you read back in Genesis you don't read of Moses referring to any group of 'divine beings' as "sons of God" either.
However
Moses does use a phrase very similar to "sons of God" in Deut 14:1. And in this case "sons of the Lord your God" does refer to God's people... who were very human.

And in the Pentateuch, Moses never uses "sons of God" or any similar phrase to refer to any non-humans.

So based on Deut 14:1 I think a Scriptural argument can be made that "sons of God" and "sons of the Lord your God" when used by Moses does in fact refer to God's people.

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:

Oh, got it.
Well, if you read genesis without reading back into ( even without JOB), you don't read anyone group of humans being called "sons of god".
The first time we hear of this is Genesis 6 and it contrast with "daughters of men".
Even on that alone, there is a clear distinction in state:
Daughters of Man - Human
Sons of God- not human.

But didn't you make the claim about interpreting "sons of God" in light of Genesis? I'm not saying that we can't use other scripture to help us decide the meaning. I just think that if you're going to make the claim that we need to interpret Genesis with Genesis, there should be some precedent, in Genesis, that shows sons of God means what you say it means.

We know that God had helpers in Heaven, we know that because of the use of "US" in Genesis 1 and the Tower of Babel story.

If you're referring to the "Us" in Genesis 1:26, that's referring to the plurality of the Godhead, not to heavenly angels.

In short, there is enough to suggest the sons of God are nor human but some sort of divine beings.

Where? Enough where?

Now, taking Genesis alone, like you asked me to do, where would you get that they were human when they are contrasted against the "daughters of man"?

I wouldn't get the idea from Genesis alone. I'd use other scripture.

[SoCalExile]

You need to stop dude, seriously.
You aren't grasping even the basic view of this argument, at all.

And you aren't even addressing the points I'm making, you're just arguing talking points that were addressed in my initial post.

[SoCalExile]

You are reading the NT and other passages BACK into Genesis, which isn't standard practice.
Not saying you are wrong mind you, but you know what I mean.
Yet, we must address ALL the other passages in which sons of god means divine beings and why here, in its natural reading, it means otherwise.

The irony is that this means Jude should be tossed out. And Jesus used the term to refer to humans of faith just as we are. The fact is that the term is used for both humans and angels, the only common factor is faith. It's used for faithful angels and humans who become SoG by faith, which is my original argument. It is you that isn't grasping basic arguments (and ignoring the bulk of them against the A-H view).

[SoCalExile]

And why this mating was so wrong that it brought the wrath of God on all people AND how giants ( one possible interpretation) came of out of it.
Also how it the mating resulted in so much wickedness and then we have to address what Jude and Peter were talking about when the said that angels were punished for their unnatural acts.
And if sons of god always means people ( we know that in Job it doesn't for example), we have to address other issues after that.

You're doing it again.

[B. W.]

As the Cram says too many opinions...

Jude 1:6, "And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day..." NASB

Refers back to the book of Enoch identifying them angels as angelic beings and not human and shows the plot. The limited vocabulary as well as lack of knowledge about DNA used words denoting intercourse to make pregnant the normal way but appears to have another meaning in the text as the book of Jasher points out...

Book of Enoch:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe009.htm

CHAPTER VI.

1. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. 2. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' 3. And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' 4. And they all answered

p. 35

him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' 5. Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 6. And they were in all two hundred; who descended ⌈in the days⌉ of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. 7. And these are the names of their leaders: Sêmîazâz, their leader, Arâkîba, Râmêêl, Kôkabîêl, Tâmîêl, Râmîêl, Dânêl, Êzêqêêl, Barâqîjâl, Asâêl, Armârôs, Batârêl, Anânêl, Zaqîêl, Samsâpêêl, Satarêl, Tûrêl, Jômjâêl, Sariêl. 8. These are their chiefs of tens.

CHAPTER VII.

1. And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. 2. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: 3. Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, 4. the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. 5. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. 6. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.

CHAPTER VIII.

1. And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals 〈of the earth〉 and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. 2. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl,

p. 36

[paragraph continues] (taught) astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, 〈Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun〉, and Sariêl the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

CHAPTER IX.

1. And then Michael, Uriel, Raphael, and Gabriel looked down from heaven and saw much blood being shed upon the earth, and all lawlessness being wrought upon the earth. 2. And they said one to another: 'The earth made †without inhabitant cries the voice of their crying† up to the gates of heaven. 3 ⌈⌈And now to you, the holy ones of heaven⌉⌉, the souls of men make their suit, saying, "Bring our cause before the Most High.".' 4. And they said to the Lord of the ages: 'Lord of lords, God of gods, King of kings, 〈and God of the ages〉, the throne of Thy glory (standeth) unto all the generations of the ages, and Thy name holy and glorious and blessed unto all the ages! 5. Thou hast made all things, and power over all things hast Thou: and all things are naked and open in Thy sight, and Thou seest all things, and nothing can hide itself from Thee. 6. Thou seest what Azâzêl hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were (preserved) in heaven, which men were striving to learn: 7. And Semjâzâ, to whom Thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. 8. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and have slept with the women, and have defiled themselves, and revealed to them all kinds of sins. 9. And the women have borne giants, and the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. 10. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying and making their suit to the gates of heaven, and their lamentations have ascended: and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. 11. And Thou knowest all things before they come to pass, and

p. 37

[paragraph continues] Thou seest these things and Thou dost suffer them, and Thou dost not say to us what we are to do to them in regard to these.'

Note Semjâzâ is Satan and Azâzêl was Satans second in command and is spoken of in the bible as the Scapegoat in Leviticus

See Lev 16:21,22,23 ...now read

Lev 16:26 And he who released the goat as the scapegoat (‛azā’zēl)...

This symbolized something...

Back to book of Enoch...

CHAPTER 10
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/boe/boe013.htm

1. Then said the Most High, the Holy and Great One spake, and sent Uriel to the son of Lamech, and said to him: 2. '〈Go to Noah〉 and tell him in my name "Hide thyself!" and reveal to him the end that is approaching: that the whole earth will be destroyed, and a deluge is about to come upon the whole earth, and will destroy all that is on it. 3. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for all the generations of the world.'

4. And again the Lord said to Raphael: 'Bind Azâzêl hand and foot, and cast him into the darkness: and make an opening in the desert, which is in Dûdâêl, and cast him therein. 5. And place upon him rough and jagged rocks, and cover him with darkness, and let him abide there for ever, and cover his face that he may not see light.

6. And on the day of the great judgement he shall be cast into the fire. And heal the earth which the angels have corrupted, and proclaim the healing of the earth, that they may heal the plague, and that all the children of men may not perish through all the secret things that the Watchers have disclosed and have taught their sons.

8. And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azâzêl: to him ascribe all sin.'

9. And to Gabriel said the Lord: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have. 10. And no request that they (i.e. their fathers) make of thee shall be granted unto their fathers on their behalf; for they hope to live an eternal life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years.'

11. And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjâzâ and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness.

12. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is for ever and ever is consummated. 13. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: 〈and〉 to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations.

15. And destroy all the spirits of the reprobate and the children of the Watchers, because they have wronged mankind. Destroy all wrong from the face of the earth and let every evil work come to an end: and let the plant of righteousness and truth appear: ⌈and it shall prove a blessing; the works of righteousness and truth⌉ shall be planted in truth and joy for evermore.

17 And then shall all the righteous escape,
And shall live till they beget thousands of children,
And all the days of their youth and their old age
Shall they complete in peace.

Rev 20:1,2 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;

Fits Enoch 10:11 as to the time this happens... for Satan... Semjâzâ

The second in command Azâzêl did the dirty work and was sent into Hell - the wilderness- symbolized as the scapegoat for the carrying out the plot to kill, rob, ruin the innocence of Adam and Eve and their children.

In the occult, practiced today, they desire to spring, Azâzêl and his messenger out of the current Hell to finish the assignment. Azâzêl is know as Nergal in Babylonian lore and his messenger possibly Apollo in Greek lore and known as Ishtar in Babylonian lore. In Hindu - known as Shiva the destroyer.

Check this out for yourself.

That is why ancient Jewsih commentaries and early church fathers say the angelic beings in Gen 6:1-4 were the watchers and were not of human origin. They messed the Human, animal, and plant Genetic codes. This is revealed by the phrases - cutting of roots... which blends plants to make a new species of plants.

Book of Enoch Chapter 15,,,,

8. And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. 9. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men, ⌈⌈and⌉⌉ from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin; ⌈they shall be evil spirits on earth, and⌉ evil spirits shall they be called. [10. As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.] 11. And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, ⌈but nevertheless hunger⌉ and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded ⌈from them⌉.

Though not cannon the book of Enoch has some interesting information!
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[SoCalExile]

As the Cram says too many opinions...

Dude, you're repeating the very same addressed arguments.

-Ripping two verses out of a greater context of Jude, which is a polemic against early apostasy, using examples of apostasy in the Egyptians, fallen angels, and Sodomites. Paul the Master of Theology also says we can't read OT passages with NT understanding - which ironically ignores the writings of the Apostle he's named after.

-A claim about "limited vocabulary" that ignores the actual vocabulary, which isn't being used to describe blood lines, but a generation of people living in the same time frame.

-The discredited reference to Jasher, which is a 18th century forgery.

-The use of Enoch, which isn't canon, and doesn't date to Enoch. The fact that you have to reach outside the canon of scripture to support your presuppositions tells me you don't have any biblical support, especially since your previous arguments have no biblical backing.

Ironically your argument seems to stem from whatever supports your opinion - canon or not.

[abelcainsbrother]

You are reading the NT and other passages BACK into Genesis, which isn't standard practice.
Not saying you are wrong mind you, but you know what I mean.
Yet, we must address ALL the other passages in which sons of god means divine beings and why here, in its natural reading, it means otherwise.

The irony is that this means Jude should be tossed out. And Jesus used the term to refer to humans of faith just as we are. The fact is that the term is used for both humans and angels, the only common factor is faith. It's used for faithful angels and humans who become SoG by faith, which is my original argument. It is you that isn't grasping basic arguments (and ignoring the bulk of them against the A-H view).

Wow! Atleast you admit it,but when somebody says a book of scripture should be thrown out they are not going on what God's word says and are going on what they think.You cannot throw out Jude just because it shows you're wrong in the way you interpret the bible to claim angels did not have sexual relations with women producing hybrids.

How do you ignore Goliath too who was a hybrid Giant?There are many problems trying to make these passages like "sons of God' apply to man instead of angels that cause problems biblically. First off the bible does teach about angels and when you change God's word from when it is referring to angels to man you do away with bible teaching about angels and will not fully understand how evil the fallen angels are.

But also you will have no biblical way to address these false god's people did worship as god's,such as the many hindu gods who were fallen angels worshipped as gods,but then their Nephilim hybrid off-spring the giants that were worshipped as gods also like Hercules,Zeus,Saturn,Atlas,Mercury,etc. These were real gods people worshipped as gods but you have no biblical way to address these by denying that fallen angels produced hybrids. You have no way to explain to a hindu,pagan,etc the truth from a biblical perspective.

Galatians 1:8 notice the word angel.Also this how Mormonism was started and Islam by angels appearing to men.