Is Calvinism a Heresy?

[Fortigurn]

Third, the potter-clay motif seems to have one point: The potter prepares the clay.

The "mode" is irrelevant. No where does this passage bring man's will into the equation (In fact, it does just the opposite - Romans 9:16). The potter makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. Pretty clear to me. This is why Arminians tend to accuse God of unrighteousness (Romans 9:14) and not being fair (Romans 9:19). (This certainly would not be the case if man "fitted himself for destruction". There is nothing in this entire chapter to even hint at such an interpretation. This is pure theological desperation, not sound bible exegesis. This is an attempt to deny what this passage plainly teaches. Paul's reply is a sobering rebuke to anyone who would do such, but you can read that for yourself.

You quoted the footnote (ironically, a part which attempted to defend your belief), not what I wrote.

But having said that, you ignored the rest of the footnote, which demonstrated clearly that the verb here could be in the middle, which is reflexive ('fitted themselves').

[David Hewitt]

The reason is that there is a step inbetween 2 and 3 in your syllogism. Instead, it works like this:

1.) All who are saved get saved because of God's elective plan.
2.) No person can know God's elective plan.
3.) When someone IS saved, they CAN understand that they were one of the elect.
4.) When someone is saved, they experience a spiritual transformation, which serves as evidence of salvation.
5.) Therefore, before someone is saved, one cannot know if they are elect or not. Afterwards, when someone is saved, that saved person can know that they are a child of God.

When someone is saved, they are made a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). That person now has the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). That person/we now want the things of God and hate evil (1 Peter 2:1-3). We take delight in God gladly (Psalm 37:4). And there are others. We know that we are saved; God has promised it; we have the Son. (1 John 5:11-13).

That sounds great on paper. In reality, it works as the syllogism was presented previously.

You see a Calvinist who was 100% convicted of their salvation, who lived a worth life, and who was recognized to be one of the chosen few.

Then at some point they backslide, and renounce the faith.

Calvinists simply explain 'Oh, they were never saved to start with'.

Well, all I am doing is saying what the Bible says. I have gone into much depth explaining that the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is in fact true at <a href="http://wholecounsel.blogspot.com/" target=NEW title="Whole Counsel Theology blog">my blog</a> where I analyzed the Assembly of God position on security. I did a decent amount of Exegesis there, and I hope it proves to be useful to you, and that through it (and all of this) that you and I can glorify God more; that is indeed the purpose of our lives. (See 1 Corinthians 10:31)

In many cases, yes, a person was never saved if they turn away and never return. Jesus talks about this - and I mention it in my blog. At other times, someone may fall away for a time and then, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, return. I say these things because I know the Bible teaches them (see Hebrews 12 for who the Spirit disciplines).

One of my favorite books is <a href="" title="What the Bible says about Assurance!" target=NEW>How Can I Be Sure I'm A Christian</a> by Dr. Don Whitney of Southern Seminary of Louisville. I got to have him as my spiritual formation professor when we were both at http://www.mbts.edu in Kansas City; we've both moved since. Yes, Dr. Whitey is a Reformed Theologian (calvinist), and I would say he is very sure of his salvation -- as am I of mine!

It all depends on where we're getting our assurance. Are we trying to convince ourselves of it contrary to what the Bible says and deceiving ourselves, or are we trusting in the things that the Bible says (which I would mention includes a life lived in obedience to Christ, see <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;" target=NEW title="If we love Jesus, we keep His commands!">John 14:15, 21.</a>) I strongly recommend the book and my blog link.

For the glory of Jesus, for He is worthy!
Dave Hewitt

[countrypreacher84]

You can only have a syllogism with three terms, so unfortunately David, you have broken the rules of logic (be thankful there is no punishment for that). For a good intro to logic i would suggest Come Let Us Reason By Norman Geisler. I do not wish to sound condescending when I write that, for it is a discipline that I am just beginning to delve into myself. Don't forget, I'm not asking for someone to set up a syllogism of there own, but merely asking for someone to disprove mine. If mine is true, then Calvinism cannot offer security.
In Christ
The Country Preacher
No creed but the Bible

[Jac3510]

PL:

My concern for you is that you had a conversion experience. So long as you had that and then came to the Calvinist system, I don't care. I do have a problem with the way most people are presented the gospel (i.e., "Give your life to Christ to be saved!"), because I think that the majority of people are lost precisely because they've missed out on the pure gospel. They're trusting their own faith rather than the grace of God.

I told you near the beginning of this that I agree with much of the Calvinist reasoning. I just disagree with the premises! An example is evident here. You and I should both agree that people have turned their faith into a work . . . trusting in your faith won't save you. It's trusting in the Person and Promise of Christ that will do that. In other words, just believing that Jesus will do what He said He will do based on who He is, that's what saves. And what He said He'd do was grant eternal life to those who simply believed. The person who has never "simply believed" is NOT saved.

Now, you say that my simple believism scares you. That's odd, coming from a Calvinist. Because, in your scheme, the elect will be saved. They will be regenerated and thus they will not only believe, but that believe will be manifested in a committment to Lordship. Faith without works is dead for you, so faith will manifest itself in repentance and discipleship. There is nothing for you to be afraid of, PL.

Not the same for me. I hope you can see that, on the assumption that what I am saying is right, what you are teaching is a false gospel to the extent that it is condemning to Hell those who believe it. Your denial of simple believism is a denial of the gospel itself, so far as I see it. Thus, my stated concerns.

I'll deal with Romans 9 as requested in the next day or so. At the same time, I am going to do two things:

1) I am going to go through this thread line by line and make sure that EVERY Scripture reference you've offered has been explained from my perspective and EVERY argument you've presented has been accounted for, and

2) I am going to go through this thread line by line and pull out EVERY argument based on Scripture that you have not dealt with. I will then restate those is very concise, numbered statements, so that you can deal with them on a case-by-case basis. Independant arguments will be separated as such to avoid confusion. I'm doing this for two reasons. First, it keeps you from having to go through the mass of this text and hunt down context, yada, yada. More importantly, for those who are following this or will read this in the future, it will make as clear as possible the issues that I have with Calvinism that have not yet been dealt with. If you, or anyone else, chooses to handle them, so much the better. If not, then the objections lay bare for all the world to see.

[Sean 2]

PL stated

I'm saved because God chose to save me, not of my works, but so that His purpose according to election might stand.

According to this admission, I have constructed the following syllogism

1.All those who are saved are saved because they were included in God's elective plan
2.No person can know God's elective plan.
3. No person can know if they are saved.

Unless someone can dispute the validity or accuracy of the above syllogism, then PL 's form of Calvinism (which i belive to be in line with traditional Calvinism) offers no security for salvation.

In Christ
The country preacher
no creed but the bible (stealing it back from JAC, although i stole it from someone else originally)

The point you make here about OSAS or Calvinism is absolutely correct and is irrefuteable! I use a similar point. The only way you can know you are elect is if you perservere to the END. Otherwise, you may be one of those who believe for awhile, and then fall away, meaning (as calvinist put it) you never were saved!

[Sean 2]

PL stated

I'm saved because God chose to save me, not of my works, but so that His purpose according to election might stand.

According to this admission, I have constructed the following syllogism

1.All those who are saved are saved because they were included in God's elective plan
2.No person can know God's elective plan.
3. No person can know if they are saved.

Unless someone can dispute the validity or accuracy of the above syllogism, then PL 's form of Calvinism (which i belive to be in line with traditional Calvinism) offers no security for salvation.

In Christ
The country preacher
no creed but the bible (stealing it back from JAC, although i stole it from someone else originally)

OK, I'll dispute it. The reason is that there is a step inbetween 2 and 3 in your syllogism. Instead, it works like this:

1.) All who are saved get saved because of God's elective plan.
2.) No person can know God's elective plan.
3.) When someone IS saved, they CAN understand that they were one of the elect.
4.) When someone is saved, they experience a spiritual transformation, which serves as evidence of salvation.
5.) Therefore, before someone is saved, one cannot know if they are elect or not. Afterwards, when someone is saved, that saved person can know that they are a child of God.

When someone is saved, they are made a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17). That person now has the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16). That person/we now want the things of God and hate evil (1 Peter 2:1-3). We take delight in God gladly (Psalm 37:4). And there are others. We know that we are saved; God has promised it; we have the Son. (1 John 5:11-13).

Hope that helps!

SDG,
Dave

As to point #3. Wow, that's very subjective. There have been many people who produced fruit and "thought" they were saved only to later fall away, meaning (again, acording to Calvinism) that they were never saved. So you never know, you might bear all kinds of fruit and are relying on a subjective feeling that you are saved (Mormans have this feeling too).

[Sean 2]

Regeneration is conditional

.
Wrong Jac,

We are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. It is not of him who wills, not of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

So you are saying we are not born of blood? Honestly, I hate to say it, but this is another disputed passage. There are verying manuscripts on it.

Before using this passage to try to support Calvinism anymore you should read here: http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/john1_13.html

[Sean 2]

Third, the potter-clay motif seems to have one point: The potter prepares the clay.

The "mode" is irrelevant. No where does this passage bring man's will into the equation (In fact, it does just the opposite - Romans 9:16). The potter makes vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor. Pretty clear to me. This is why Arminians tend to accuse God of unrighteousness (Romans 9:14) and not being fair (Romans 9:19). (This certainly would not be the case if man "fitted himself for destruction". There is nothing in this entire chapter to even hint at such an interpretation. This is pure theological desperation, not sound bible exegesis. This is an attempt to deny what this passage plainly teaches. Paul's reply is a sobering rebuke to anyone who would do such, but you can read that for yourself.

By the way Jac, I'm still interested in your view of Romans 9:10-23.

Actually, I've given a rough exegesis of Romans 9 already yet you still act as if there is no other possible interpretation that what the Reformed say it means. Not to mention, multiple passages in Romans point to the fact that an action on man's part is part of the equation. This is clearly expressed in Romans 11.

Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

You can't honestly read this and say "Nope, nothing man has to do". Like faith, to continue in His kindness otherwise you will be cut-off! Sounds conditional to me. And why does it say not to become proud?

When talking to Timothy, Paul gave this warning about choosing an overseer:

1Ti 3:6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil.

How can a convert fall into the condemnation of the devil?

Maybe Paul should have just asked him point #3, "Do you feel saved"?

[Sean 2]

Well, all I am doing is saying what the Bible says. I have gone into much depth explaining that the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is in fact true at <a href="http://wholecounsel.blogspot.com/" target=NEW title="Whole Counsel Theology blog">my blog</a> where I analyzed the Assembly of God position on security. I did a decent amount of Exegesis there, and I hope it proves to be useful to you, and that through it (and all of this) that you and I can glorify God more; that is indeed the purpose of our lives. (See 1 Corinthians 10:31)

In many cases, yes, a person was never saved if they turn away and never return. Jesus talks about this - and I mention it in my blog. At other times, someone may fall away for a time and then, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, return. I say these things because I know the Bible teaches them (see Hebrews 12 for who the Spirit disciplines).

One of my favorite books is <a href="" title="What the Bible says about Assurance!" target=NEW>How Can I Be Sure I'm A Christian</a> by Dr. Don Whitney of Southern Seminary of Louisville. I got to have him as my spiritual formation professor when we were both at http://www.mbts.edu in Kansas City; we've both moved since. Yes, Dr. Whitey is a Reformed Theologian (calvinist), and I would say he is very sure of his salvation -- as am I of mine!

It all depends on where we're getting our assurance. Are we trying to convince ourselves of it contrary to what the Bible says and deceiving ourselves, or are we trusting in the things that the Bible says (which I would mention includes a life lived in obedience to Christ, see <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... version=77;" target=NEW title="If we love Jesus, we keep His commands!">John 14:15, 21.</a>) I strongly recommend the book and my blog link.

For the glory of Jesus, for He is worthy!
Dave Hewitt

Actually, I don't think you are. I believe you think you are being faithful with the scriptures. And I call you a brother. But since we are here discussing this matter, we shouldn't have an issue pointing out each others understanding of the scriptures.

What would you do with this passage:
Jam 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back,
Jam 5:20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

It's a brother, he wanders from the truth, another turns him back and saves his soul from death. We can't be talking about physical death since we all physically die. It's spiritual death, to affirm this it goes on to say "will cover a multitude of sins".

This is just one clear cut case of someone who is called a brother, wanders from the truth, so they knew it to begin with. And they are saved from death after being "brought back". You can't say they were never saved, because then you would have to make the text mean they were "brought back" to an unsaved state.

Also consider Hebrews 6. If you try and refute Hebrews 6, you have done more damage to Calvinsim than good. Because then you have to admit someone who is "dead in trespass and sin" can come that close to being saved, being enlightened and a partaker of the Holy Spirit, but still not be saved. Even Calvinist contend that the unregenerate will not respond to the Gospel. Yet here is an example of some who respond. If they are not saved, how do they respond? How can they if they are "dead"?

If you say they, (although "dead") did manage somehow to respond enough to be called enlightened and a partaker of the Holy Spirit but still fell away, then you have another problem. YOU may be that person! You, who are enlightened may fall away, proving you were never saved, but only "enlightened".

If you answer one way, Calvinist doctrine fails, if you answer the opposite, Calvinist doctrine fails. You can't have it both ways.

This issue is all about harminization of ALL biblical texts. You can't pit some against others, they all must be in harmony.

[Sean 2]

Sean2,

I'll deal with your other posts later, as I have alot to catch up on, and I will attempt to respond to all of the previous posts. This will obvioulsy take a while, especially with my recent work schedule.

one cannot choose to believe without a heart transplant first.

Why not? (You can explain, but show scripture as well please)

That's too easy Sean. How about a list.

John 1:12-13
John 3:3
John 6:44
John 6:65
Romans 3:11
Romans 9:16
1 Corinthians 2:14

That should be a good start. There's plenty more where this came from.

I see this list, I don't have a problem with any of those texts being Arminian. I've already covered the Romans passages. I also posted a link explaining John 1:12 here it is again: http://www.pfrs.org/commentary/john1_13.html.
John 3:3 makes my point. Born again of the Spirit happends after you believe (Eph 1:13).
About John 6;
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Did Judas come to Him? Will he have eternal life too? Jesus CHOSE Judas, but Judas was lost. So this passage doesn't help.

Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."

You can be chosen and not be saved! Even Judas (the devil) was chosen.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

So not ALL that God gave Jesus were kept, one of the twelve were lost!

If you say "Yes but that was only so the scripture might be fulfilled"
Ok then how about this:

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith...

My point is to show that Jesus does draw those who come to Him, but that doesn't guarnetee you won't fall away. Judas did, and Paul said others will.

Besides, this passage makes it clear that after His resurrection, He would draw all men to Himself:

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

You can't be universal in one passage and shift gears in another, just because it doesn't fit your doctrine. I believe all are drawn. Some resist the Holy Spirit though (Acts 7:51).

As for 1 Cor 2:14, try reading the context.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

So are you saying that this means the "natural man" cannot recieve the Gospel? Be careful. 1 Corinthians was written to:

To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:
1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:4 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,
1Co 1:5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge--
1Co 1:6 even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you--
1Co 1:7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Co 1:8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brothers...

Clearly written to Christians, yet Paul says:

1Co 2:1 And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom.
1Co 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
1Co 2:3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling,
1Co 2:4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
1Co 2:5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
1Co 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away.

Why did Paul do this? Read on...

1Co 2:10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.
1Co 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
1Co 2:13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Interesting, there are things, wisdom that is revealed through the Spirit that the natural man cannot accept. So let's continue:

1Co 3:1 But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready,
1Co 3:3 for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?

So the Corinthians were carnal, fleshly, but they were still saved! Paul could not even teach them "solid food" from the Spirit because they could not recieve it! That's right, the proof text offered by Calvinism that is meant to show that "natural man" cannot be saved because he doesn't understand the Gospel because it's spiritual and natural man is not. BUT, when we read this Calvinist proof text in context, we see that these Corinthians were saved, yet carnal, fleshly, unable to understand spiritual things, yet they were saved! And able to understand "Jesus Christ and him crucified (1 Cor 2:2)." Instead, this passage proves you can be fleshly and carnal and still accept the basic Gospel and be saved.

Besides, I gave the Cornelius example already. He was devoted and feared God, before he was saved. And as you quoted from John 3, you aren't saved until you recieve the Spirit. So how did Cornelius do it without the Spirit?

[This is not correct, as I have already shown. Paul says the man who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted as righteouseness. (Romans 4)

Faith can never be called a work. Only Calvinist call it a work, Paul never does. I quoted more than Romans 4 to prove this. Instead of dealing with the text, you are ignoring it and making the dogmatic assertion that "to make it otherwise would make it a work" Sorry but read Paul, He says "Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." If faith was a work, Paul could not say this.

You still don't get it Sean. I agree that faith and belief are not works. It is the Arminian view that makes it a work. If, as you say, belief is a voluntary action, then it is a work. The fact is that it is not a work, it is something that humans, due to their depravity, are incapable of unless they are born of the Spirit first.

Sean, what is it that separates you from the unbeliever? Was there something inherent in you that allowed you to believe while unbelievers just didn't have that special "something" that you had? You may think that you chose Him, but you didn't. He chose you. It is by His grace alone that you were saved, not by anything within yourself.

What seperates me from an unbeliever? I made a choice, one to accept the Gospel that I read directly from the Bible itself. The Holy Spirit does the work, if you believe and do not resist Him.

You can't then claim I would have something to boast about. Why?

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

I can't boast because it's not of works. Christ did the works, and I accessed this Grace by faith (Rom 5:2).

If someone opens the jail doors and says "Come out" some don't believe, some are more confortable in jail (like the Jews looking back at Egypt), some believe and walk out. To say I worked for this is making an illogical argument. Jesus opened the door and Jesus called, the Holy Spirit pushed me and I believed.

Have you not read what Jesus said about becoming His follower:

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?
Luk 14:29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him,
Luk 14:30 saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'
Luk 14:31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand?
Luk 14:32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.
Luk 14:33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.

Jesus clearly says you must consider the cost, what you must give up, all your worldly lusts and sinful desires. Jesus couldn't say this if you don't make a choice. You must consider. What if you decide, no?

[Fortigurn]

In many cases, yes, a person was never saved if they turn away and never return. Jesus talks about this - and I mention it in my blog. At other times, someone may fall away for a time and then, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, return. I say these things because I know the Bible teaches them (see Hebrews 12 for who the Spirit disciplines).

So you are in fact agreeing with the proposition that Calvinists cannot know if they are saved.

They have no assurance of salvation, because they have no idea if they are going to be one of those who backslide later. No matter what they believe now, they have no assurance that they are one of the elect.

[countrypreacher84]

Sean 2 wrote

The point you make here about OSAS or Calvinism is absolutely correct and is irrefutable!

I wanted to clear up the fact that I do belive that once a person is saved that they are secure with God forever. I belive, however, that this security is based upon God's promise to save those who would place their faith in Christ, therefore giving me something objective to base my salvation on. It is a free grace position that is held by JAC as well as myself. Without a moment in time event to secure in the mind salvation, the Calvinist and the Armenian ironically spend their entire lives trying to "prove" their salvation
In Christ
The country preacher
no creed but the Bible , and no robe in the pulpit (cos i look silly in one)

[David Hewitt]

You can only have a syllogism with three terms, so unfortunately David, you have broken the rules of logic (be thankful there is no punishment for that). For a good intro to logic i would suggest Come Let Us Reason By Norman Geisler. I do not wish to sound condescending when I write that, for it is a discipline that I am just beginning to delve into myself. Don't forget, I'm not asking for someone to set up a syllogism of there own, but merely asking for someone to disprove mine. If mine is true, then Calvinism cannot offer security.
In Christ
The Country Preacher
No creed but the Bible

OK, so I said a syllogism wrong. The point is, I guess in some way, is that a syllogism doesn't convey enough information to deal with it all. It is too simplistic and really doesn't answer the questions that come up. I've presented with the Bible has to say about it, and provided a good resource. Read up.

Dave

[David Hewitt]

In many cases, yes, a person was never saved if they turn away and never return. Jesus talks about this - and I mention it in my blog. At other times, someone may fall away for a time and then, by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, return. I say these things because I know the Bible teaches them (see Hebrews 12 for who the Spirit disciplines).

So you are in fact agreeing with the proposition that Calvinists cannot know if they are saved.

They have no assurance of salvation, because they have no idea if they are going to be one of those who backslide later. No matter what they believe now, they have no assurance that they are one of the elect.

LOL, Fortigurn, I'm not sure what you mean. I have assurance of my salvation; I am confident that I'm saved, and that Jesus has changed me. I've given some Scriptural examples of it, and as I said before, I have covered it much more extensively in my posts regarding the Assemblies of God position on the matter at my blog, located <a href="http://wholecounsel.blogspot.com">here</a>. Please read that if you wish to continue our discussion on the matter, because it looks like all we're going to be saying at this point is only what we've said before, and be playing a game of pong. The Bible indicates we can have assurance (1 John 5:11-13) and that those who Christ has given eternal life will never perish (John 10:28). It's as simple as that, though I will freely confess I don't understand completely how it works, nor do I think I can. I will simply say what the Scripture says, and give God the glory in it, and in what mystery remains!

Hey Sean -- I haven't forgotten about you; please don't view my lacking of immediate responses as my not dealing with what you said (just in case you thought that way). I'm a little slow, and soon will begin to compile a rather large response to this whole thread.

Fortigurn -- I am curious about something, and please indulge me -- how is it that YOU have assurance of salvation? Apparently it is different from how I've presented it, so I am wondering what you base yours on (Scripturally speaking).

I'd love to have your thoughts!

SDG
Dave

[David Hewitt]

Sean 2 wrote

The point you make here about OSAS or Calvinism is absolutely correct and is irrefutable!

I wanted to clear up the fact that I do belive that once a person is saved that they are secure with God forever. I belive, however, that this security is based upon God's promise to save those who would place their faith in Christ, therefore giving me something objective to base my salvation on. It is a free grace position that is held by JAC as well as myself. Without a moment in time event to secure in the mind salvation, the Calvinist and the Armenian ironically spend their entire lives trying to "prove" their salvation
In Christ
The country preacher
no creed but the Bible , and no robe in the pulpit (cos i look silly in one)

OK, I think I am beginning to understand. NOW, I would ask then -- how can someone know that he has received this grace of Christ?

I would readily agree that it is based on God's promise to save those who place faith in Christ, and on that we base our assurance. My question, though remains: how does this play out in our lives? How is someone who is saved look? What difference does Jesus make in someone's life that is saved?

These are pressing questions.

FtGoGA (For the Glory of God Alone),
Dave Hewitt