SALVATION ISSUE

[FearlessLlearsy]

I agree with your entire post Paul

Jlay,

Jesus clearly shows us the 3 steps of being a true Christian.
1.Deny yourself.
2.Pick up your cross.
3.Follow Him
So, is it really enough to say "Jesus, I accept you Lord" and not follow Him?
Once again, as i said in another post, only God truly knows the heart.


Where does Jesus say this is the 3 steps of being a true Christian? Do you meaure your own "Christianity" by this standard?I would challange you to prove to us here that you have denied yourself in all things, picked up your cross (and explain this concept) and followed Him faithfully in every area of your life. Was Jesus confused when he said John 5:24 and John 3:16?

Woaaaaaa, hold the horses there buddy.
It is not my "Christianity". Quite frankly that is a little offending What broad FAULTY assumptions have you made?! Nonetheless, i apologize for not clarifying several things in my post. I assumed you knew all about it already.
Ill try to answer your questions in the most detail that i possibly can.

Where does Jesus say this is the 3 steps of being a true Christian?

It is found in Luke 9: 23, it states: "Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me." (I'll try to explain the concept to the best of my abilities later on the post)

Do you meaure your own "Christianity" by this standard?

As i see it, it is not my standards of Christianity, but Jesus's. I just follow his words.

picked up your cross (and explain this concept) and followed Him faithfully in every area of your life.
I would challange you to prove to us here that you have denied yourself in all things

That is not the point of Luke 9:23 (again, ill explain later in the post)
Plus... There is no need of self edification to list all i have done good, and list the areas i have followed Jesus faithfully. I would be like a pharisee, listing how good I am.

let him deny himself

Here, to deny oneself means to reject any of one's plans, and accept God's plan for one's life. This is where i think comes conversion, where one says "Jesus, I aknowledge that you came down and died for my sins" This is the initial turning point. We give up our plans for the Lord's.

"Take up his cross daily and follow me".

Take up his cross does not mean to act righteous and follow him in all the ways faithfully. It does not even mean to endure persecution on Earth for Him. Taking up the cross is embracing the love of Jesus Christ. It is placing others before oneself. It is being a servant to others. It is all about the Love of Jesus Christ. That is why when we have his love, our "good" deeds are products of his Love that we share. When a Christian resists persecution and dies a martyr, it is not out of conviction and boldness, but it is a product of the Love of Christ. Taking up our cross and following Jesus is a way of life. Always, when a person shares the Love of Jesus Christ, one will always see a sense of compassion, a sense of helping others.
And, essentially, what is Christianity? Is it not following and applying the teachings of Jesus? That is why when Jesus says whoever wants to be my disciple, he is essentially saying: whoever wants to be a true Christian, because after all, we are followers of Christ.
This is where Faith without Deeds is dead. One that says he has accepted Jesus Christ, and is a follower of Christ (basically a Christian) but does not demonstrate the Love of Jesus is not picking up his cross. Our good deeds are a result of that Love.
A person who claims to have accepted Jesus Christ, but puts his or her plans before God's, shows no compassion for the least, lives boastfully, and looks down on others is essentially not doing everything Jesus required.
I hope i was clearer on some issues, and thank you for explaining the Seal of the Holy Spirit,

[neo-x]

I have to agree with FearlessLlearsy here, he very throughly explained talking up the cross, I will just add a few things - that taking up the cross also means persecution. To carry your cross means to be ready to lay down your life for Christ. It is absolute surrender. When Jesus said "carry your cross" it did not mean grace and forgiveness or the love of God, not then as Christ was not crucified, to those who were around him it only meant tortured, painful, a horrendous agonizing death. A criminal death, death of one who is hated and not accepted socially. The worst that the Roman govt. could do to you. And it made a clear cut line for those who wanted to follow Jesus, that they know what "take up your cross" really meant, it meant "I will follow you at the cost of my life to the point of my death."

The carrying of cross does not mean bad things happening in our lives, debts or divorces or illnesses, it is not to be confused with carrying the cross.

doesn't it say in 2 Timothy 3:12-13 "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived."

also

Mat 10:38 ... anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

then

Luke 14:25-33 Those who come to me cannot be my disciples unless they love me more than they love father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and themselves as well. Those who do not carry their own cross and come after me cannot be my disciples. If one of you is planning to build a tower, you sit down first and figure out what it will cost, to see if you have enough money to finish the job. If you don't, you will not be able to finish the tower after laying the foundation; and all who see what happened will make fun of you...In the same way, concluded Jesus, none of you can be my disciple unless you give up everything you have.

@ Jilay wrote

I would challange you to prove to us here that you have denied yourself in all things, picked up your cross (and explain this concept) and followed Him faithfully in every area of your life.

Some of the people are so naive...I am sorry, but living in secular, liberal countries has its charms (no offense to anyone, it is not a blame, merely a fact), come down to a country where Christians are burnt still, where entire villages are burnt because one Muslim became Christian. But of course there is no CNN or BBC to report it.

But somewhere around this globe of ours "take up your cross" does mean death. where after a flood, help is only given to Muslims and not Christians, in northern Pakistan, in the "Kaghan" and "Neelam" valleys of Kashmir, you can not bury your dead if you are a Christian, people don't even give you space for such things. People get fired from their jobs for being a Christian, I was once fired because of being a Christian. so please...a lot of people are persecuted because of following or bearing the name of Christ. I challenge you, come down here, live here for 10 years, then I would say that you are eligibleto ask someone to prove "taking up his cross"

[neo-x]

edited my post

[jlay]

It is found in Luke 9: 23, it states: "Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me." (I'll try to explain the concept to the best of my abilities later on the post)

Fearless.
If you read the text you provided, it says, whoever wants to be my DISCIPLE. I can only assume then that you are equivocating disciple to mean the same thing as saint, believer or saved person? Correct?
Nothing personal, but I would disagree with this understanding. I know it is a common one, but I do believe it to be in error. You are welcome to give your explanation on how you take disciple to mean the same thing as one who becomes a believer.

As i see it, it is not my standards of Christianity, but Jesus's. I just follow his words.

Please understand that is not what I am saying. I am referring to your reading and interpretations.
Do you just follow his words? For example, Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had and give to the poor. Do you apply this to your life as well? Why or why not? If not, then I assume you have reason to not follow all the teachings of Jesus.

Plus... There is no need of self edification to list all i have done good, and list the areas i have followed Jesus faithfully. I would be like a pharisee, listing how good I am.

This isn't meant as some insult. I assure you I am most serious. Either you are living up to this standard or you are not. Please don't take it the wrong way if I just don't accept on face value that you are. If you are, then you would be the 1st one I have ever met who is? And I've met some pretty amazing believers.

But somewhere around this globe of ours "take up your cross" does mean death.

No doubt that just being a Christian could cause you discrimination and other untold problems depending on where you live. But, I am not in agreement that this is what Christ is referring to in this passage.

And, essentially, what is Christianity? Is it not following and applying the teachings of Jesus?

I know that sounds correct. But let's investigate. I already gave the example of the rich young ruler. Are we to apply this to our lives? So it does beg the question, what is Christianity? It is very obvious that how you view Chrstiainity is very similar to how many do, and even how I myself viewed for most of my life. The problems, as I have already pointed out is that there will be contradiction. In fact, I don't know of anyone here, who if is totally transparent, no matter how diligent, lives up to these particular teachings.

No offense meant here, but basically what i see is that you have ascribed your own interpretation to 'taking up one's cross.' When we consider the context and audience when Jesus spoke this, I think you would be hard pressed to find agreement between your interpretation, and how it was understood by Jesus contemporaries.

[jlay]

so please...a lot of people are persecuted because of following or bearing the name of Christ. I challenge you, come down here, live here for 10 years, then I would say that you are eligibleto ask someone to prove "taking up his cross"

I would never attempt to minimize or even understand the struggles you personally face as a believer. In fact, I'd love to pray for you. Please feel welcome to pmail or post any specific needs you might have.
I would agree that people who do live in these environments are required to live by faith much more than the average beleiver in the USA. There certainly isn't the apathy or issues of being lukewarm. People aren't worried about what color the carpet is in the sancturary.
I totally empathize with what you are saying here, and no offense is taken. However, an emotional appeal is not a qualifier for scriptural understanding. Is someone who endures these difficulties more Christian than one who doesn't? Becuase of the struggle are they better equipped to interpret, divide and apply the scriptures? We all have access to the same spirit and wisdom. The issue here isn't really that I am calling someone to the carpet, but simply challenging them to measure themselves in the same way. The thread is on salvation, and if someone claims that a 'real' Christian is this or that, then I want to see if they are willing to follow that standard all the way through to its logical ends. The reality is I used to make the exact same claims. And I believe I have very strong support for how I've reformed my thinking in this area.

[PaulSacramento]

Jesus was very smart at testing people, that pesky "omniscience" thing, LOL !
He knew exactly what to say to people to test them and their faith and WHY they do "righteous acts".
The rich man is a perfect example, HE was full of pomp and zeal, until Jesus told him to give the one thing that HE couldn't.
And that is what Jesus asks Us to do.
For each of us that is something different, for me it IS my pride and it WAS my zeal for "revenge" when injustices were commited.
My Lord revealed to me that truly "vengence is mine" and to not confuse that with justice and the power of forgiveness in the imdispensible healing process.
The pride thing I am STILL working on, as we all are.
We work on these things not to BE saved but because God's grace through Christ has already saved Us.
We all have stumbling blocks and taking up our cross is overcoming those blocks and being better than we are, not because we have to, but because the HS fills us full of God's and Christ's love.

[neo-x]

Jilay,

I totally empathize with what you are saying here, and no offense is taken. However, an emotional appeal is not a qualifier for scriptural understanding

I hope you understand my point, our interpretations could be different, I have utter respect for that. It was not a emotional appeal just an idea how sometimes your words can mean (negatively) to some people without you knowing (i do not think your intention was to insult). I guess your statement made me say all this because i found it in disrespect to a lot of people, to whom faith is measured by these words, whether you find it different doesn't make much difference to them, they live and survive by it. That being said, no offense taken as well. if something was harsh, I apologize for it bro.

And I do agree, scriptural interpretation should not be based entirely on emotions. Still, some moderation in terms of arguing might help all. I am afraid a layman believer who is not knowledgeable as you, might not know the scriptures in such detail and stumble because of any statement. Just a thought. Hope you see my point. thanx for replying

[jlay]

Absolutely. No worries.

For example, my challenges to Fearless are essentially the same challenges that were posited to me. I'm not surprised by his reaction, because it was similar to the one I had. The reality is that we are going to get irritated when our worldview is challenged. I hope we can make it clear from this point forward that nothing said here is said to be cruel, insensative, etc.

I've gone through and still am going through a spiritual remodeling. This basically is founded in asking, "why do I believe what I believe?" So, if you had asked me five years ago, "do you think we should follow everything Jesus taught?" i'd of said, "yes! How dare you suggest otherwise." But the reality is, I wasn't. Nor was anyone else for that matter. Some were doing a 'better' job, some worse. But the overwhelming majority of believers were not livng under the charge, "none of you can be my disciple unless you give up everything you have." Especially those in the pastorate.
Since then, I have met people that I would say come close. Most are involved in caring for orphans in 3rd world countries. Now I have given up many things, but have i given up everything? Have any of us? That would be quite a claim. Now, Jesus' disciples did. They left homes, jobs, families and everything to follow Christ. As did Paul. And maybe God will call some of us to do this very thing. But is it the prescription for salvation? If it is, then we have some conflicting doctrines being taught in the Bible. Everything Jesus said is true. But not everything Jesus said is a specific command that we apply to our lives today. (Back to example of RYR) When we don't rightly divide the scriptures, the end result, IMO, is we are left to redefine terms, such as "take up your cross," to fit our theology. Instead of conforming our lives, we conform the definitions.

Most people who claim that a person must exhibit works/fruit/ etc. to be saved, believe they are saved. They believe that their level of works is the right level. But how do they know? What standard or scale do they have to measure out such judgment? They don't. The result is usually that we prooftext verses to support our theology. I know, I've done it. And I'm not in a place where I would say I don't still slip into this from time to time. But sotierology is too big an issue to get wrong.

Now, I do want to make it clear. I think our fruit/works/whatever are important. And when someone who claims to be a believer lacks evidence in their choices/lifestyle/etc. then we certainly have reason to follow appropriate church discipline to teach, rebuke, correct and train in righteousness. If someone has no affection for the Word of God, and no response to correction, then they are to be expelled. It is only natural to question whether they were ever really saved. It could be that they were never true believers. Although that is in God's hands. If they exhibit no evidence, then I don't have a problem challenging their faith. If they are unable to demonstrate or explain a genuine faith, well then they have no security of salvation. The only assurance of salvation is by faith in Christ. And if someone can't even testify to their faith, then they have no assurance. Either they never had it, or they have been deceived into confusion. The Bible says that even the elect can be decieved.

In my case, I went through a place in my life where you could have found little to any evidence that I was a true believer. I was in open rebellion to God's will. Oddly I still prayed, but usually only arguing with God. I read the bible on occassion, but found little understanding. God did not allow me to find comfort in my rebellion. On the outside I even made fun of bible thumpers. I took on ridiculous arguments that I had no reason to believe.
I certianly denied Christ in my actions. But through that I always knew He was the savior. Even when I doubted my own. The reality of who He was and what I had trusted in earlier in life, was etched upon my soul. My doubts were about who I was. I couldn't escape it. Even at the lowest of the lows. He chastened me back into his care. It took several years and much pain, but where I was unfaithful, He was faithful. His seal was upon me.

[FearlessLlearsy]

Now, I do want to make it clear. I think our fruit/works/whatever are important. And when someone who claims to be a believer lacks evidence in their choices/lifestyle/etc. then we certainly have reason to follow appropriate church discipline to teach, rebuke, correct and train in righteousness. If someone has no affection for the Word of God, and no response to correction, then they are to be expelled. It is only natural to question whether they were ever really saved. It could be that they were never true believers. Although that is in God's hands. If they exhibit no evidence, then I don't have a problem challenging their faith. If they are unable to demonstrate or explain a genuine faith, well then they have no security of salvation. The only assurance of salvation is by faith in Christ. And if someone can't even testify to their faith, then they have no assurance. Either they never had it, or they have been deceived into confusion. The Bible says that even the elect can be decieved.

Why... I TOTALLY agree with that!

You must deny yourself

Looks like we understand this passage differently, but what exactly do you think of that passage? How do you see it?

No offense meant here, but basically what i see is that you have ascribed your own interpretation to 'taking up one's cross.'

Well, I beg to ask You Jlay, in that case, what is the right interpretation of that scripture. I mean, yes, i could be wrong, but at the least, show me WHY?

Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all he had and give to the poor. Do you apply this to your life as well? Why or why not? If not, then I assume you have reason to not follow all the teachings of Jesus.

I am not sure what you mean there? Jesus knew the heart of the rich young man, and knew what he valued most above God was his earthly possesions. Now, for me, it may be different, but if i am not willing to give up that "thing" i'm no different than that rich young man.

His seal was upon me.

Jlay, i praise God for this! But sadly, not everyone is like you... Not everyone who once said the words "Jesus i accept you as Lord of my life"(i say, they said the words, because i really cannot say they accepted Christ into their hearts, for only God knows the heart) that have maitained that status. I know Several people claiming to have accept Christ and slipping back in a lifestyle where God is not present. The sad part is, they never really come back to God (ive witnessed and talked to people in Haiti who confessed having accepted Christ, but life has taken such a toll on them (poverty) Christ is not their focus of their lives, and is not even present in their lives for as a matter of fact). Now, if they really did accept Jesus Christ at a certain point, and never returend to Him, does that mean they were not sealed?
Pointing out also, you gave a wonderful testemony, and i praise God you are a living example of the grace of God, as we ALL are, but saying something for you, and applying it to all other cases is a bit of apriorism. Dont get me wrong, i WISHED it was the case for everyone else.

[neo-x]

I think both fearless and Jilay, you both are right, in my opinion you are arguing upon two fundamental sides of the coin.

@ Jilay

Now, I do want to make it clear. I think our fruit/works/whatever are important. And when someone who claims to be a believer lacks evidence in their choices/lifestyle/etc. then we certainly have reason to follow appropriate church discipline to teach, rebuke, correct and train in righteousness. If someone has no affection for the Word of God, and no response to correction, then they are to be expelled. It is only natural to question whether they were ever really saved. It could be that they were never true believers. Although that is in God's hands. If they exhibit no evidence, then I don't have a problem challenging their faith. If they are unable to demonstrate or explain a genuine faith, well then they have no security of salvation. The only assurance of salvation is by faith in Christ. And if someone can't even testify to their faith, then they have no assurance. Either they never had it, or they have been deceived into confusion. The Bible says that even the elect can be decieved.

It is a clever stance, because unlike what Fearless is saying the chances of error or misjudgment are less.

@ Fearless

i praise God for this! But sadly, not everyone is like you... Not everyone who once said the words "Jesus i accept you as Lord of my life"(i say, they said the words, because i really cannot say they accepted Christ into their hearts, for only God knows the heart) that have maitained that status. I know Several people claiming to have accept Christ and slipping back in a lifestyle where God is not present. The sad part is, they never really come back to God (ive witnessed and talked to people in Haiti who confessed having accepted Christ, but life has taken such a toll on them (poverty) Christ is not their focus of their lives, and is not even present in their lives for as a matter of fact). Now, if they really did accept Jesus Christ at a certain point, and never returend to Him, does that mean they were not sealed?
Pointing out also, you gave a wonderful testemony, and i praise God you are a living example of the grace of God, as we ALL are, but saying something for you, and applying it to all other cases is a bit of apriorism. Dont get me wrong, i WISHED it was the case for everyone else.

I think the confusion here is that, once someone accepts Jesus Christ, he is saved and sealed by the HS. but I think seal of HS is no predestined guarantee to a comeback if the believer slips out of a Godly life. It worked for Jilay cuz he kept at it, I know i have been like what Jilay said, so yeah, it works. But as you say, it might not work for all.

The bare fact is that salvation is not objective. It may work for the criminal on the cross differently to the woman accused in John chp8 to the prostitute who anointed Jesus with oil to Zacchaeus who returned everything he had taken unjustly and only then Christ said that 'today salvation has come to this house...' .

The conditions and terms for all of them were different.

What I think, Salvation is not be works nor by faith alone, how do we discern someone walks in Christ, by not only asking them about their faith but also they exercise that faith, in the fruits of spirit and testimony to Christ, compassion to the weak and care for other believers, still does all of this makes up their trip to heaven for sure, no, as those who did miracles and prayed in the name of God may not stand in God's Judgment as righteous. So who does, i think the best answer that was given was when Jesus said, love others as I have loved you and because of this the world will know you are my disciples. Be a light into the world, salt of the earth, but is everyone that much eminent, no, so does this mean what Jesus said doesn't apply to all, could someone love others while he denies Christ, most people certainly do, so love is not the exclusive answer either, John 3: 16 is a very nice answer for the layman but even that is not enough for others because a Christian walk is necessary to hold such faith in its true form.

In essence a lot of combined stances can be made to know do we have salvation, if salvation occurs only by thinking that we are saved than by all means no, salvation requires a breath to breath acknowledgement that we live for God.

there is a saying in Sufism that I think describes it very nicely it says "The moment one is not vigilant (with sin in his heart, believer or non-believer) is the same moment when one is Godless. (has pushed God out of his heart)"

I think we should be careful in every step of our walk everyday, that is the best I can explain it. for now at least

[FearlessLlearsy]

indeed, a clever stance, i do realise i left ALOT of place for misjudgement, something i will work on. On a general note, i agree with what you are saying Neo, but clarify something for me please:

The conditions and terms for all of them were different.

The conditions might have been different, but how are the terms different?

[mandelduke]

Jlay, what i meant is that: A person tells me he is saved. However, his life is still the same prior to his repentence to Christ. No change. Does not the Bible mention of us being a new creation when we accept Jesus Christ? Also, in Matthew, when his disciples (i think) asked him: Jesus, how will you differentiate a good tree from a bad one. Jesus answered them: By its fruit.
No doubts we are and will always remain sinners. But dont you think when we have Jesus Christ in our hearts, the fruits of the Spirit naturally flows and exhibits themselves in our lives?
So, is it possible that the person in the first place had never truly accepted Christ?

What do you think Mandelduke about this?

You have a new spirit, but if you’re a junky you will still be a junky. And so on. I have seen people changed instantly, but more often people may have a long struggle. Do I believe that some people make false confessions of course. Just remember We all keep sinning and fall short of the glory of God, but think God we are justified by faith. God made salvation so easy there is no reason for any one to go to hell.

[mandelduke]

When James was talking about faith without works is dead, he was talking to so called Christens that was not helping the church at Jerusalem in time of a great famine. Works Has nothing what ever to do with salvation. Look haw Paul talked to the Galatians when they were trying to mix the law with faith. Jesus paid the price for all sin, all we have to do is believe. Now if you are renewing your spirit by studying the Gospel you should be able to stop practicing sin, but you will never get complete victory over sin.

[neo-x]

the terms are different, not always but in a lot of cases.

consider the romans 9: 15 "For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

and then this,

in verse 13 it says "Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." Esau was never given a second chance, he wanted to repent, the scripture even says he kept on looking for redemption but found none. (not implying that God is unjust)

In the above case even if Esau wanted to repent he was still denied, no matter what the cause. when God decides, he decides. you getting my point. Come back in not always a given. salvation is given for free but you have to be on your damn very best to save it.

Here's the difference, the criminal on the cross never exercised his faith in works, so you see in this case terms were partially met but God saw in his heart and knew that given the chance, he would have repent and walked in God. And God saw truth in his heart, this does not mean that that criminal could never disobey God again but that he wanted to follow him even if he was weak. Unlike the rich man whom Jesus told that if he gives away everything and follow Jesus he will have eternal life. Also note that Jesus knew he was telling the truth when he said he had followed each commandment. but unlike the criminal, here a full demonstration was required.

In the case of Zaccheus, a full demonstration of faith was required, not only orally but also by works. But on the woman who was to be stoned, he simply said, "go and sin no more".

now read matt 20

"For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

2And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.

3And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,

4And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.

5Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.

6And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?

7They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.

8So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.

9And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.

10But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.

11And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,

12Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.

13But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?

14Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.

15Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?

16So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."

now it plainly tells me, combined with Rom 9: 15 that the terms may differ, not always but they can and not because of man but because of the reason that alone God decides, which is exactly told in,

Rom 9:16 "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

Now remember the person in Mark chp 9, the one who was doing miracles in Jesus' name and also preaching but not like what the disciples of Jesus were doing and so Jesus said "for whoever is not against us is for us.". even though that man was not following the way Jesus did things as a routine, in essence he was doing it with Jesus' name and Jesus told his disciples to "Let him be, do not stop him." because this is very way that it works. And to some extent i think that is the beauty of it. A personal connection far out rules tradition and dogma. I am not implying that this should be the defacto standard, no. only that, God is merciful but not by obligation and his ways of working are certainly not limited to our perceptions. And this only poses a question when we are taking about setting an objective principle. God is merciful cuz he chooses to be. In the case of Ananias & Sapphira in the N.T, God was not merciful. However Peter was excused even for cursing Christ.

All of the above, does not apply for an immoral life, neither I am saying that we don't have to be good or bad to qualify for salvation, no such thing. what i mean is that we have to be extra vigilant in every thing,not always keen to jump to conclusions, there are certain things that can always tell us when someone is not following Christ.

The above shows me that there can be exceptions, so a single objective principle or experience in settling issues like salvation may not be applicable on all. the terms may differ, not because of us, but because God decides to. why does he decides to? well, can the clay ask the potter?

Hope you got my point. My only conclusion, God can surprise us, always.

[The Protector]

An interesting conversation, to be sure!

One note on the Rich young ruler:

People often mistake this passage as meaning that the wealthy can't go to heaven, or that we must give up everything we have in order to gain salvation; people often pull the "camel through the eye of a needle" verse out of context. But look at the whole passage, either from Mark 10:17-31 or Luke 18:18-30 .

18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’[a]”

21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said.

You see, the story begins with the rich young man asking what he must DO to inherit eternal life. Like the Pharisees, this man was focused on works from the outset, and Jesus (knowing his heart) responded accordingly. That is why he begins with the rye question, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone." Of course Jesus knew that he was good. And of course Jesus knew that he was God! He was testing the man-- Does this man seek Jesus because He recognized Jesus for who and what He really was? Did he call Jesus good because he recognized that Jesus--and Jesus alone-- was truly good among men? We see immediately that the answer is no, he called him "good teacher" as a formality. The young man is focused not on Christ, but on himself-- on what he can do on his own to gain salvation. Jesus reminds him of God's commandments, and lists some of them-- again, knowing full well that He alone has kept them all.

The rich man replies that he has kept all of the commandments since he was but a boy! WELL! If that's the case, then this young man is truly something-- this young man must be perfect-- like Christ himself. Well, if he's as perfect as he claims he is, and he is intent on getting to heaven on the basis of his works, then Jesus goes ahead and gives him the rest of the recipe:

22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Now, we all know what comes next:

23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

But recall what Jesus says after that:

26 Those who heard this asked, “Who then can be saved?”

27 Jesus replied, “What is impossible with man is possible with God.”

Can a rich man be saved? With man, it is impossible; but with God, all things are possible. But this is as true of the poor man as it is for the rich. The point here is not that rich people have to give all they have to the poor to be saved, the point is that we can't DO anything to earn salvation, because we all fall short of the glory of God. God's standard for works is perfection, and "there is none that is righteous, no not one." Praise be to God, then, that he sent his only begotten son as our redeemer!