Infinite punishment for finite sins

[J.Davis]

Hi smiley!

No, not at all..

Does revelations say that some physical object on earth was burning? Nope!

Don't be an ankle biter. The phrase "forever and ever" as a reference to the duration of an event is used in both instances. Thus, the annihilationist has good grounds to take the one from Revelation figuratively.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46 “These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Mark 9:47 “If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell, 48 where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire

Daniel 12:2 again: "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt (abhorrence, hatred, detestation, great aversion).”

ETC...There is no way that God did not mean never ending burning...And I didn’t even have to rewrite the bible.

1. More than half of these verses are irrelevant. Because annihilationists affirm that the punishment is eternal.

That’s not true...there is a lot (a ton) to consider, we have talked on a good bit of it so far.

Also, the scriptures do have relevance, they are the truth, also, they can show contradictions against the truth.

Concerning Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

They have no rest day and night suggest that they are still alive. Concerning the phrase (the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever) as it is used in other books (not revelations). Those where instances where God showed the type of people that would be punished in hell. In those cases the scripture just says: it’s smoke goes up forever or there was thick smoke etc. However, revelations speaks of the future, that is why it says that they have no rest day and night, they are actually going in the lake of fire. With the examples of the type of people that will go to hell, they are not being thrown into the lake of fire yet, they are just examples. So no, either Revelations is independent from the verses that refer to smoking forever (highly unlikely) or all the verses that refer to smoking forever will agree with Revelations, meaning that on and after the day of judgment everyone in the lake of fire will have no rest day and night . But as I said, revelations is not an example, it’s a description of the real thing as well as it being placed in the future. Again...no mater what, all scriptures that refer to smoking forever (in relation to types of people that will go to hell) are either an example of the day revelations speaks of and no one will have rest day and night (extremely likely) or they are independent (unlikely). Either way, Revelations says that they have no rest day and night so it can not be used figuratively in the way annihilationist wish to use it.

2. Having read through the last few pages, I haven't seen any good responses to Hebrews 6:1-3, which can be used as a basis for interpreting the verses that speak of eternal condemnation as being eternal in consequence, not duration. It is also not the only verse, as the New Testament also speaks of "eternal redemption", and no one understands that to mean that the righteous will experience the process of being redeemed forever.

The only one to address it is B.W on page 13, and he does so by interpreting "eternal" as "final" judgment. And that's all fine, but the annihilationist can do the same with the other verses.

This scripture: Hebrews 6:1,2,3 will mean the same thing for both traditionalist and annihilationist until the truth is established for those who do not know it because both believe that their view is correct. The foundation for eternal judgment concerning those who do not know the truth is not laid down so there are questions which those who know are trying to help answer. Therefore, the scripture has little relevance in this discussion until the truth is established for those who do not know it. That scripture speaks to those who know the truth concerning the elementary teaching about the Christ.

That is why B.W posted a few facts about God’s character. He means to give a foundation to determine the truth.

[J.Davis]

Ok, I went through B.W’s list of scriptures… But it was a quick run through, no meditation or checking the context of where the scriptures came from (trusting that they say what they seem to say by themselves). So take it easy on me… B.W… .

Isaiah 6:3, “And one cried to another and said: "Holy, Holy, Holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of His glory!" NKJV

God is Holy, his awesome power, skill, wisdom and love can be seen in all things he created.

2 Timothy 2:13, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."

If we have no faith in God then he must do as he said concerning the consequence of our lack of faith, he must always be perfect and true to his character.

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?” NKJV

God does not lie, make mistakes, change his mind and He always keeps his word.

Hebrews 6:18, “…that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.”

When God makes a promise, He keeps it, it is impossible for Him to lie so we can feel safe in the fact that we will have what he promised.

Deuteronomy 32:4, "He is the Rock, His work is perfect; For all His ways are justice, A God of truth and without injustice; Righteous and upright is He."

God does not change, he is a strong and stable foundation, his work is perfect, he is fair in all thing, and never unjust.

Job 34:10-12 "Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding: Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to commit iniquity. 11 For He repays man according to his work, And makes man to find a reward according to his way. 12 Surely God will never do wickedly, nor will the Almighty pervert justice."

God is not evil or unjust, we get fair punishment or reward according to what we have done. God will never act in an evil way, he will always do what is fair (and he will never change his law).

Psalms 92:15, "To declare that the LORD is upright; He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."

God is good, gives security, protection and there is no evil in him.

Job 8:3. "Does God subvert judgment? Or does the Almighty pervert justice?"

Is God being unjust (in this case harm unjustly)? Or does he do evil?
In both cases the answer is nooooooo.

Zep 3:5,"The LORD is righteous in her midst, He will do no unrighteousness. Every morning He brings His justice to light; He never fails, But the unjust knows no shame."

The lord is with us, he will do no evil, he will punish the unjust/wicked.

2 Ch 19:7, "Now therefore, let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes."

Know that God is to be respected ,do what is right concerning Gods laws, because he will. God will follow his laws no matter what, regardless of who you are, he is just.

Isa 55:8-11 - "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. 10 "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, 11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it."

God’s ways and understanding is far above ours and what he wants done will be done.

Isa 46:9-10 - "Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure..."

There are no other God’s, just one (I Am/Jesus) he tells the coarse of events to come (the future). What he has set in place will stand…he will do what he wishes.

Deuteronomy 10:17, “For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality nor takes a bribe.”

God has all power and authority above all, he will judge all justly and fair no matter who you are, his law is absolute.

Nahum 1:3 - "The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked..."NKJV

God is patient and can do all things (awesome)! And God will give those who are evil the punishment they deserve and he will make no exceptions.

Isaiah 57:21 - "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked."NKJV

Well, that’s pretty much how I would say it…The wicked will have no peace.

Job 37:23, "As for the Almighty, we cannot find Him; He is excellent in power, In judgment and abundant justice; He does not oppress."

We will never fully understand God, he is perfect in judgment and completely fair, he does not harm without just cause.

Ecclesiastes 12:14, “For God will bring every work into judgment, Including every secret thing, Whether good or evil.”

God will judge everything…good or evil.

Jeremiah 17:10, “I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.”

God knows the truth, and makes it know to us, he will give all what they deserve.

[Byblos]

^ great post J.

And here 's the clincher that brings it all home: Mark 12:27 and especially Luke 20:38. How could God be all these characteristics, fair, just, unchanging, not denying himself, and be the God of the living, then to turn around and deny all that and destroy his own creation? Would that not make Him the God of the living as well as the dead? I think it does.

[Sudsy]

Again, not debating but just adding how others use scripture to support their view. This article attempts to shoot down both the 'T' view and the 'A' view. This univeralist begins this list by believing he has found the Truth on the matter and how this Truth will 'allow your spirit to soar'. Many of us would have very different interpretations of these same verses.

Gary Amirault in this link http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html says "Now read and study the following scriptures and allow your spirit to soar to heavenly heights as the Spirit of Truth guides you into the riches of His kingdom and His love for you, your family, your friends, and the enemies in your mind.

1. 1Tim 2:4 God will have all to be saved. (KJV) Can His will be thwarted?
2. 1Tim 2:4 God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth Will His desire come to pass?
3. 1Tim 2:6 Salvation of all is testified in due time Are we judging God before due time?
4. Jn 12:47 Jesus came to save all Will He succeed?
5. Eph 1:11 God works all after the counsel of His will Can your will overcome His?
6. Jn 4:42 Jesus is Savior of the world Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14 Jesus is Savior of the world Why don't we believe it?
8. Jn 12:32 Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself To roast or to love?
9. Col 1:16 By Him all were created Will He lose a part of His creation?
10. Rm 5:15-21 In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live The same all?
11. 1Cor 15:22 In Adam all die, in Christ all live Again, the same all?
12. Eph 1:10 All come into Him at the fullness of times Are you getting tired of seeing the word, all?
13. Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1 Cor 12:3 Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit See what I mean?
15. Rm 11:26 All Israel will be saved But most Jews don't believe yet!
16. Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people Is there joy is "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11,12 All will know God How long, O Lord?
19. Eph 2:7 His grace shown in the ages to come Have we judged Him before the time?
20. Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all Experientially to prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21 Creation set at liberty How much of creation?
22. Col 1:20 All reconciled unto God There's that word "all" again.
23. 1Cor 4:5 All will have praise of God What for?
24. Jms 5:11 End of the Lord is full of mercy Is "hell" mercy?
25. Rev 15:4 All nations worship when God's judgments are seen Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32 All subject to unbelief, mercy on all All?
27. Rm 11:36 All out of, through, and into Him All into Him?
28. Eph 4:10 Jesus will fill all things Including "hell?"
29. Rev 5:13 All creation seen praising God Including Satan?
30. 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all What does that mean, preacher?
31. Rev 21:4,5 No more tears, all things made new "All" made new?
32. Jn 5:25 All dead who hear will live How many will hear?
33. Jn 5:28 All in the grave will hear & come forth How will the "righteous" judge, judge?
34. 1 Cor 3:15 All saved, so as by fire How can fire save you?
35. Mk 9:49 Everyone shall be salted with fire Including you?
36. Rm 11:15 Reconciliation of the world Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
37. 2Cor 5:15 Jesus died for all Did He died in vain?
38. Jn 8:29 Jesus always does what pleases His Father What pleases the Father? (1Tim 2:4)
39. Heb 1:2 Jesus is Heir of all things Does "things" include people?
40. Jn 3:35 All has been given into Jesus' hands Can you accept this?
41. Jn 17:2 Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him How many did the Father give Him?
42. Jn 13:35 The Father gave Him all things Study the word "things" in the Greek.
43. 1 Tim 4:9-11 Jesus is Savior of all! Can't seem to get away from that word "all."
44. Heb. 7:25 Jesus is able to save to the uttermost How far is "uttermost?"
45. 1Cor 15:26 Last enemy, death, will be destroyed Including "lake of fire" which is "second death?"
46. Is 46:10 God will do all His pleasure Does Old Testament agree with the New?
47. Gen 18:18 All families of the earth will be blessed Here comes that word "all" again.
48. Dan 4:35 God's will done in heaven and earth What can defeat His will?
49. Ps 66:3,4 Enemies will submit to God Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"
50. Ps 90:3 God turns man to destruction, then says return How can one return from "destruction?"
51. Is 25:7 Will destroy veil spread over all nations All nations?
52. Deut 32:39 He kills and makes alive Kills to bring life?
53. Ps 33:15 God fashions all hearts "All" hearts, including men like "Hitler?"
54. Prv 16:9 Man devises, God directs his steps What about "free will?"
55. Prv 19:21 Man devises, but God's counsel stands So much for "free will."
56. La 3:31,32 God will not cast off forever Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
57. Is 2:2 All nations shall flow to the Lord's house "All" nations?
58. Ps 86:9 All nations will worship Him "All" nations!
59. Is 45:23 All descendants of Israel justified Including the wicked ones?
60. Ps 138:4 All kings will praise God Are you catching on?
61. Ps 65:2-4 All flesh will come to God That sounds wondrous.
62. Ps 72:18 God only does wondrous things I wish we would believe that.
63. Is 19:14,15 Egypt & Assyria will be restored Really?
64. Ezk 16:55 Sodom will be restored to former estate Sounds impossible.
65. Jer 32:17 Nothing is too difficult for Him Nothing? No, nothing!
66. Ps 22:27 All ends of the earth will turn to Him For what purpose?
67. Ps 22:27 All families will worship before Him Praise His name!
68. Ps 145:9 He is good to all Including your worst enemies.
69. Ps 145:9 His mercies are over all his works Let's start believing that.
70. Ps 145:14 He raises all who fall Who hasn't fallen in sin?
71. Ps 145:10 All His works will praise Him For "eternal torment?"
72. Is 25:6 Lord makes a feast for all people And you are invited.
73. Jer 32:35 Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire This came from the carnal mind.
74. Jn 6:44 No one can come to Him unless He draws them You can't "chose" to follow Him.
75. Jn 12:32 I will draw all mankind unto Myself Amen!!!
76. Ps 135:6 God does what pleases Him If it pleases Him to save all that He might be in all, are you upset?

Also, an observation - there are various characteristics regarding God that should be considered on any view to avoid any bias. For instance, Psalm 136 - 26 times it states - 'For His mercy endureth forever'. God is forever merciful.

[Sudsy]

Byblos asked -

How could God be all these characteristics, fair, just, unchanging, not denying himself, and be the God of the living, then to turn around and deny all that and destroy his own creation?

A possible answer - because He is also a God of mercy and His mercy endureth forever according to Psalm 136. He could still be considered 'the God of the living' after destroying who did not accept Him as Creator and Saviour.

[Byblos]

Byblos asked -

How could God be all these characteristics, fair, just, unchanging, not denying himself, and be the God of the living, then to turn around and deny all that and destroy his own creation?

A possible answer - because He is also a God of mercy and His mercy endureth forever according to Psalm 136. He could still be considered 'the God of the living' after destroying who did not accept Him as Creator and Saviour.

The ultimate act of mercy from God is that he provided the means of salvation in Christ. I do not see annihilation as an act of mercy but of cruelty for robbing some of the choice to remain in His absence while giving others the choice to be in His presence for eternity.

[A Y323]

The ultimate act of mercy from God is that he provided the means of salvation in Christ. I do not see annihilation as an act of mercy but of cruelty for robbing some of the choice to remain in His absence while giving others the choice to be in His presence for eternity.

How do we have choice after death and after judgement? This is something I've thought about before, thought now would be a good chance to jump in and ask.

[smiley]

That’s not true...there is a lot (a ton) to consider, we have talked on a good bit of it so far.

Also, the scriptures do have relevance, they are the truth, also, they can show contradictions against the truth.

Concerning Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

They have no rest day and night suggest that they are still alive. Concerning the phrase (the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever) as it is used in other books (not revelations). Those where instances where God showed the type of people that would be punished in hell. In those cases the scripture just says: it’s smoke goes up forever or there was thick smoke etc. However, revelations speaks of the future, that is why it says that they have no rest day and night, they are actually going in the lake of fire. With the examples of the type of people that will go to hell, they are not being thrown into the lake of fire yet, they are just examples.

I have no idea what your point is here, even after I've read it several times over. Could you be a little more clear? Correct, God showed the type of people that would be punished with Hell there. It is also correct that Revelation speaks about the future and Isaiah does not. If you are suggesting that Isaiah was referring to the duration of Hell there, even though the text specifically mentions the land of Edom, I see no reason to assume that, except to avoid having a sound basis for interpreting Revelation figuratively.

Note that Isaiah also talks about fire burning "day and night forever".

So no, either Revelations is independent from the verses that refer to smoking forever (highly unlikely)

Of course it is independent. Isaiah was not talking about the fire from Hell, he was talking about the fire that burned in the land of Edom. Which we know did not burn "forever and ever", nor is it true that it was "never quenchned".

This scripture: Hebrews 6:1,2,3 will mean the same thing for both traditionalist and annihilationist until the truth is established for those who do not know it because both believe that their view is correct. The foundation for eternal judgment concerning those who do not know the truth is not laid down so there are questions which those who know are trying to help answer. Therefore, the scripture has little relevance in this discussion until the truth is established for those who do not know it. That scripture speaks to those who know the truth concerning the elementary teaching about the Christ.

So do you concede that Hebrews and other similar passages provide the annihilationist a rational basis for interpreting other verses that speak of eternal condemnation as being eternal in consequence, but not duration?

^ great post J.

And here 's the clincher that brings it all home: Mark 12:27 and especially Luke 20:38. How could God be all these characteristics, fair, just, unchanging, not denying himself, and be the God of the living, then to turn around and deny all that and destroy his own creation? Would that not make Him the God of the living as well as the dead? I think it does.

Well, for starters, the Bible itself says numerous times that people in Hell are "dead", and will be destroyed by God forever. So yes, God can be, and is all these characteristics and still destroy many of His creatures. Even if you don't think that the "death" the Bible talks about means being put of out of existence, it is still true that they are considered to not be among the living.

So whether you are an annihilationist or a traditionalist, it seems that you have to accept that God is a God of the "dead" in some sense.

Later, I'll post some verses from the OT that to me are sufficient to establish Hell as annihilation beyond any shadow of a doubt.

[Byblos]

The ultimate act of mercy from God is that he provided the means of salvation in Christ. I do not see annihilation as an act of mercy but of cruelty for robbing some of the choice to remain in His absence while giving others the choice to be in His presence for eternity.

How do we have choice after death and after judgement? This is something I've thought about before, thought now would be a good chance to jump in and ask.

Who said the choice is after death?

[A Y323]

Maybe I misunderstood you, but it looks like you did. You said, "the choice to remain in His absence while giving others the choice to be in His presence for eternity." I assumed you were talking about people in hell and heaven, maybe I was wrong. Otherwise, how would God be robbing them of choice? If they are in hell, their choice has been made; it's done and passed and there is no longer any choice and therefore nothing to be robbed.

(Also please note that I am undecided on this subject and thus not intending to enter the debate, I just had a question that's been on my mind.)

[Byblos]

Maybe I misunderstood you, but it looks like you did. You said, "the choice to remain in His absence while giving others the choice to be in His presence for eternity." I assumed you were talking about people in hell and heaven, maybe I was wrong.

If that is what was understood by what I said then I certainly didn't mean to imply it. The choice is here, in this life and it is Christ (or not).

[A Y323]

Woops, looks like you posted after I made an edit. I added a question if you'd care to address it. Of course I may still be misunderstanding and if I am then I apologize.

[Byblos]

Woops, looks like you posted after I made an edit. I added a question if you'd care to address it. Of course I may still be misunderstanding and if I am then I apologize.

No problem.

Otherwise, how would God be robbing them of choice? If they are in hell, their choice has been made; it's done and passed and there is no longer any choice and therefore nothing to be robbed.

If they are in hell then they chose to be away from God (in this life). But if they were annihilated then first, I think that violates God's character being the God of the living, and second, it also violates God's character of fairness. The fair way is that the same way people who chose (in this life) to spend eternity with God by choosing Christ get to experience being with God for eternity, the people who chose (in this life) to spend eternity without God by not choosing Christ should get to experience being away from God for eternity.

(Also please note that I am undecided on this subject and thus not intending to enter the debate, I just had a question that's been on my mind.)

And that's fine.This is not a salvation issue so it's okay to be on the fence. That is why we have discussions of this nature; maybe they can sway you one way or the other.

[A Y323]

If they are in hell then they chose to be away from God (in this life). But if they were annihilated then first, I think that violates God's character being the God of the living, and second, it also violates God's character of fairness. The fair way is that the same way people who chose (in this life) to spend eternity with God by choosing Christ get to experience being with God for eternity, the people who chose (in this life) to spend eternity without God by not choosing Christ should get to experience being away from God for eternity.

Of course then you run into the problem of people who are not consciously aware of the choice, but that's another topic I suppose.

Since I'm somewhat entered in this discussion now, I guess I'll throw out my view on this (although still undecided). Both sides have some really good points and some faults from what I can tell. Both appear (in my view) to have accurate interpretations of the scriptures they use. One thing I've been thinking since following this thread- God is the God of the living, the giver and sustainer of life. By sending people to hell, God is giving them what they wanted during life, to be separated from Him. Being separated from the sustainer of life in my mind equals death, or annihilation. Can you see my line of reasoning? Maybe those of you in this thread can help me out, either reinforce me or show me where I went wrong.

[Byblos]

If they are in hell then they chose to be away from God (in this life). But if they were annihilated then first, I think that violates God's character being the God of the living, and second, it also violates God's character of fairness. The fair way is that the same way people who chose (in this life) to spend eternity with God by choosing Christ get to experience being with God for eternity, the people who chose (in this life) to spend eternity without God by not choosing Christ should get to experience being away from God for eternity.

Of course then you run into the problem of people who are not consciously aware of the choice, but that's another topic I suppose.

called invincible ignorance. How God deals with that is really anyone's guess but we need to keep in mind that God has written the laws in our hearts, including the ability to know him through natural reason, so everyone is equipped to know Him (no excuses).

Since I'm somewhat entered in this discussion now, I guess I'll throw out my view on this (although still undecided). Both sides have some really good points and some faults from what I can tell. Both appear (in my view) to have accurate interpretations of the scriptures they use. One thing I've been thinking since following this thread- God is the God of the living, the giver and sustainer of life. By sending people to hell, God is giving them what they wanted during life, to be separated from Him. Being separated from the sustainer of life in my mind equals death, or annihilation. Can you see my line of reasoning? Maybe those of you in this thread can help me out, either reinforce me or show me where I went wrong.

We'd be running in circles. It does not negate the fact that God is annihilating part of his creation, and going against several of His character traits, IMO.