What needs to be done in order to be saved

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Now like I said, we shouldn't judge what is works, but I believe this is works, or qualifies as it. He rebuked the other man, putting forth how Jesus (God) is blameless, which could be a kind of ministry. We are called to defend the faith after all. Now weather or not this seems like a stretch, (which it does not to me) it is not our place to judge. Just some speculation to think about. IMO a death bed confession is a form of ministry as well, that may actually touch someone to look into the Word more (Let's just say an agnostic) and through that prompting they find Christ.

Well, I had never considered his rebuking of the other criminal as works but...there it is! (Luke 23:39-43) Thanks for shedding some light on this passage.

[the criminal on the cross] couldn't help but die that day - who knows what he would have done with his faith if he had lived. There are other death bed conversions too, but those examples don't change how we are to live our own lives of faith. The parable of the field workers in Matthew 20 comes to mind, although I know it is commented on in other ways.

Death bed conversions are pretty rare, as B.W. said. What about a situation where a person is saved and continues to live but has no works...and even appears evil? If you do a search for ''fried brain'' you'll read the story of Daniel, a former co-worker of mine. (You are smarter than I, so maybe you can put a link here to that story.) It is in a topic entitledRe: How do we know.

FL

PS I am leaving for France today, so don't expect a quick reply from me.

[jlay]

First of all, I think there is a great misundertanding of just what constitutes works.
Paul says in Eph. 2:10 that they were PREPARED BEFOREHAND that we should walk in them.
Works can be and are generated by the flesh. Is that the kind of work Paul and James write about?

James calls them deeds (well according to the NIV translation) and clearly states "that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."

To who?
If James is making a statement about justification (before God) by works, then we have two contradicting opinions in the scriptures. You can't hold to that and say that there isn't contradiction. One is either right, and the other wrong. Or maybe there is another position from which to interpret this passage where it will harmonize with the rest of scripture.

Are works saying, "look at what I've done to prove I'm saved." Honestly, that is the message I am getting from some of you. Or is it, "look at what God is doing in me." (Obviously works should never be a matter of bringing attention to ourselves.)
Speaking from personal testimony, I can speak of a time where there was little if any sign of regeneration in my life. Yet, looking back I can see that God was working in me. Yes, today, as James says, there are visible signs of God's work in my life. And I do not say that to pat myself on the back, but as a testament to God's glory. Can a born again person fall back into a lifestyle of sin? I would say most definately, yes.

Many from the camp of eternal security trod under foot the Son of God. This is where we see the 'A,B,Cs' of becoming a Christian, and the, "repeat this prayer after me." That doesn't mean salvation isn't by believing and that it isn't secure. This gets back to the issue of right belief. What constitutes right belief? For me, I can't give you a list of all the things I specifically needed to know to trust Christ. But I can tell you very clearly, that when I knew my need for Christ, I knew. I don't mean I simply had head knowledge. I mean that I had heart knowledge that I was a sinner saved by grace. I don't want to water down with a poor analogy. When I fell in love with my wife, I didn't have to go through a check list. Yes I am attracted to her. Yes, I have a desire to be around her. Etc. My heart knew. How do you qualify right belief? Can you? If it is a heart motive, then how can we, people, properly measure whether the Lord has done a redemptive work in a person. I have never seen a convincing argument that one can. It is one thing to say that fruit WILL follow, but how do you measure?

Good point bringing up Kardia. In Acts 1 Peter described God as the Kardiagnosta. The heart knower. And God knows if a person truly trusts in the work and message of Christ, or whether they are giving it mere lip service. He also knows which works are genuine, since He prepared them beforehand. Walking in those things is also a repsonse of faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. So, it doesn't matter how many Sunday school classes you teach, how many prayers you pray, or how much volunteer work you do. Without a right heart, the work is meaningless, and the faith is dead.

And so many from the 'works are necessary' crowd also trod under foot the Son of God. Because in their effort to establish their position, they also hang a neavy yoke around their own necks.
If works are necessary, then are your works sufficient? Is everything you have done sourced from a pure heart motive?

Yes, it is difficult for me to see a person with no walk, no love of God, no fear of God, no light, and to conceive that they had once ever truly trusted in Christ. Yet, I see people all the time who were once truly in love, and now have no evidence that the love was ever real. I can only trust God, and let Him deal with a person's heart. We preach Christ crucified to those who are lost, and we preach repentance to those who have broken fellowship.

[BavarianWheels]

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You all seem to be telling me I'm changing the scriptures. I'm simply pointing out that faith cannot exist without works. Neither exists alone because a faith with no works is dead. There's no arguing this. And we all know that works are not what saves so works alone is also dead. It's very simple.

IMHO the least amount of works/deeds a person "must" do is confess Christ as their Lord and Savior. (this is tantamount to a deathbed confession and we have an example of this from the thief on the cross) the rest must "live according to the Spirit" (perfectly? No...but the life should have a lean in the right direction) which is the fruit of true belief until their own death in the future. Not difficult.

It's all those arm-chair theologians that must make a simple thing a matter for a doctoral thesis.
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[BavarianWheels]

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I just saw this on Twitter...and it fits nicely here too.

"Change; but start slowly, because direction is more important than speed."
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[jlay]

You are saying that the term, "faith without works is dead," specifically defines an individual's justification before God.

There is no way under that hermeneutic that you can reconcile James to Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9, and several other scriptures
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

(perfectly? No...but the life should have a lean in the right direction) which is the fruit of true belief until their own death in the future. Not difficult.

It is difficult. How much lean? Are you leaning enough? This is salvation based on you. You have just created a scale of judgement, not based on scripture, but based on your own idea of "leaning." Whatever measure you judge, it will be measured unto you.

[BavarianWheels]

You are saying that the term, "faith without works is dead," specifically defines an individual's justification before God.

There is no way under that hermeneutic that you can reconcile James to Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9, and several other scriptures
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Really? You're going to assume and promote me simply agreeing with James that faith without works is dead faith and quote Ephesians as proof "against this"? Someone in another thread mentioned that John 3:16 is the gospel in a nutshell. I believe this to be true also. Faith is all that saves and salvation is a gift, NOT OF WORKS! I know we all understand this concept...why is it so "wrong" to say that there are works that accompany true faith? Don't blame me for James' words in scripture. I'm not saying works define an individual's justification before God, I'm agreeing with scripture that TRUE faith does. True faith, as James puts it as well as others, does not exist without works. There is a change that happens in a believer. He/she changes gradually from living by the flesh to living by the Spirit, gradually and this never becomes total change in this body.

(perfectly? No...but the life should have a lean in the right direction) which is the fruit of true belief until their own death in the future. Not difficult.

It is difficult. How much lean? Are you leaning enough? This is salvation based on you. You have just created a scale of judgement, not based on scripture, but based on your own idea of "leaning." Whatever measure you judge, it will be measured unto you.

Heh...I didn't mean the change is not difficult, I meant the concept is not difficult to understand, that being that faith without works is dead faith.
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[jlay]

Really? You're going to assume and promote me simply agreeing with James that faith without works is dead faith and quote Ephesians as proof "against this"?

That is not at all what I am saying. You are not simply agreeing with James. You are starting from a position, and then reading your theology into the text. That's OK, everyone does it. However, if your starting position is incorrect, then your reading will be wrong.

I also agree with James. Faith without works is dead.
You however are saying that James' is making a claim that a person's individual salvation/justification before God is what he means by this.

If (And I emphazie, IF) that is your position, then can not reconcile that with several other scriptures, most notably Eph. 2:8-9. If you think you can, I'd sure like to see your explanation.

why is it so "wrong" to say that there are works that accompany true faith?

All you need to do is define works, and clearly, concisely provide just what they are. You have not said that. You have said, that a person's life must lean to one side or the other. You are creating a scale, which frankly you have no way of knowing, and the bible interestingly offers no insight to. I wonder why? You also state that this is to be till a person dies. You then at times seem to retreat back to a position of salvation by grace through faith, but never without adding what you believe to be conditions, basing this primarily out of James statement.

True faith, as James puts it as well as others, does not exist without works. There is a change that happens in a believer. He/she changes gradually from living by the flesh to living by the Spirit, gradually and this never becomes total change in this body.

Agreed. A living faith does not exist without works. It is a dead faith. You simply can not abide (live) In Christ, and not bear fruit. It is impossible.

[BavarianWheels]

Really? You're going to assume and promote me simply agreeing with James that faith without works is dead faith and quote Ephesians as proof "against this"?

That is not at all what I am saying. You are not simply agreeing with James. You are starting from a position, and then reading your theology into the text. That's OK, everyone does it. However, if your starting position is incorrect, then your reading will be wrong.

I also agree with James. Faith without works is dead.
You however are saying that James' is making a claim that a person's individual salvation/justification before God is what he means by this.

If (And I emphazie, IF) that is your position, then can not reconcile that with several other scriptures, most notably Eph. 2:8-9. If you think you can, I'd sure like to see your explanation.

Ok. Let me step back a second and ask you to put into elementary terms (unless I'm so ignorant, which is quite possible) whay you say I'm saying. I guess I'm asking, what exactly do you mean that I'm making James' claim is that a person's INDIVIDUAL SALVATION/JUSTIFICATION before God is what he means by faith without works is dead?? I may not understand what you mean by this.

why is it so "wrong" to say that there are works that accompany true faith?

All you need to do is define works, and clearly, concisely provide just what they are. You have not said that. You have said, that a person's life must lean to one side or the other. You are creating a scale, which frankly you have no way of knowing, and the bible interestingly offers no insight to. I wonder why? You also state that this is to be till a person dies. You then at times seem to retreat back to a position of salvation by grace through faith, but never without adding what you believe to be conditions, basing this primarily out of James statement.

Define works? In a nutshell... See Matthew 22:37-40.

True faith, as James puts it as well as others, does not exist without works. There is a change that happens in a believer. He/she changes gradually from living by the flesh to living by the Spirit, gradually and this never becomes total change in this body.

Agreed. A living faith does not exist without works. It is a dead faith. You simply can not abide (live) In Christ, and not bear fruit. It is impossible.

And how have I said anything different? I suppose the explanation to the above may tell. I don't know.
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[cslewislover]

Death bed conversions are pretty rare, as B.W. said. What about a situation where a person is saved and continues to live but has no works...and even appears evil? If you do a search for ''fried brain'' you'll read the story of Daniel, a former co-worker of mine. (You are smarter than I, so maybe you can put a link here to that story.) It is in a topic entitledRe: How do we know.

FL

PS I am leaving for France today, so don't expect a quick reply from me.

I'm pretty sure I'd be fine with your friend (I don't have a ton of time to look right now). I think this whole argument on the board is not from God, personally. No one is judging anyone here, there's just a lot of noise. We can't judge if someone is saved or not, it's between them and God. But we still make "judgments" in our life as far as just being able to deal with things the best we can. If I run across a "Christian" who doesn't act like one, I generally avoid them, but I don't judge whether they are saved or not. But, perhaps I should be more bold (I am somewhat shy and don't like confrontation, normally), since in one of John's letters he talks of pointing out a person's sin so that they may repent. Part of the discussion has been toward this issue, and it's an important one. We ARE supposed to repent of our sins. As for someone with a fried brain, or something similar, well God knows about that person. If we are in our "right mind," and know that we are not repenting of sins, then that's a different issue.

Lucky you . . .

[jlay]

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Matt. 22
Have you done these? Consistently, perfectly? No, you are just like me and everyone else. Read what James says. "Whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking all of it."(James 2:10) If you are going to stand on James from your position, then you will be condemned by James as well.
I totally fail to see how these verses from Matt. 22 are consistent with your claims. Jesus is asked by a teacher of the Jewish Law, what is the greatest commandment. No claim is made that these are works that we must do to be saved. Personal salvation isn't the context. Works arent' mentioned. This is legalism. You are now saying that doing the law is necessary for salvation. That is works based salvation. If this is the case then you are not saved, nor am I, or anyone here. Because there is no one good but God. 1 John 1:10 says, If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. If you are actually referring to Matt 22: 37-40 to plead your case, it is no wonder we will not find agreement on the matter. It seems evident to me that you are not rightly dividing the Word of truth.

I'm asking, what exactly do you mean that I'm making James' claim is that a person's INDIVIDUAL SALVATION/JUSTIFICATION before God is what he means by faith without works is dead?? I may not understand what you mean by this.

You are standing on the premise that this statement from James is a statement that a person who has no works is not saved. It's that simple. That is what you are claiming.

A living faith is different than a saving faith. Granted you can not have a living faith, without first having a saving faith. A living faith is best described by Jesus as an abiding. Where you say gradual, I would say daily. People can fall from fellowship at anytime, just as they can confess, forsake their sin, and be restored to fellowship with God at anytime. Though we may be progressively sanctified, we are not progressively justified. You are saying we are progressively justified by obeying the commandments. One would have to reject the book of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and most if not all the writings of Paul to follow this.

Where I find you to be in error is that you are taking certain things in scripture and wrongly applying them to fit your theology. You believe in works based salvation, regardless of how you try to state it. You've made it clear. And so, it isn't surprising that you would take these verses from Matt. and James and try to make your case. All I can say, is I completely disagree with that hermanuetic. I think it proves itself wrong, because scripture can not contradict. There is no way to hold to this position and not be forced to reject something from the canon.

Jac can probably fill you in on this better than myself. He is well versed, and would probably gladly share despite the matters of contention going on here.

[BavarianWheels]

Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself. 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Matt. 22
Have you done these? Consistently, perfectly? No, you are just like me and everyone else. Read what James says. "Whoever keeps the whole law yet stumbles at one point is guilty of breaking all of it."(James 2:10) If you are going to stand on James from your position, then you will be condemned by James as well.
I totally fail to see how these verses from Matt. 22 are consistent with your claims. Jesus is asked by a teacher of the Jewish Law, what is the greatest commandment. No claim is made that these are works that we must do to be saved. Personal salvation isn't the context. Works arent' mentioned. This is legalism. You are now saying that doing the law is necessary for salvation. That is works based salvation. If this is the case then you are not saved, nor am I, or anyone here. Because there is no one good but God. 1 John 1:10 says, If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. If you are actually referring to Matt 22: 37-40 to plead your case, it is no wonder we will not find agreement on the matter. It seems evident to me that you are not rightly dividing the Word of truth.

Has anyone? (other than Christ) When did I promote keeping the law as a means to salvation?? I don't know what personal salvation means. When has anyone taught two different salvations personal and otherwise? You are wrong here (imho). Legalism is that one must keep the law perfectly to be saved. I've not said this nor do I promote anything of the sort. No one can in these bodies. I didn't say doing the law is necessary. I'm simply quoting words of scripture and Christ is the one that gives the answer to what the greatest commandment is. This is living by the Spirit - Galatians 5:16-18 - Then a few vs down - Galatians 5:22-25 - tells what the fruit of the Spirit is. Are you telling me that to say there are fruits of the Spirit is to say I'm promoting a works-based-salvation? That's not what I'm saying at all. I think just because I'm a SDA, everyone equates the belief that the Sabbath is still a law binding on the Christian as Legalism. It's no different than loving the Lord with all your heart, or keeping from murdering, stealing, or in honoring your father and mother. I don't see a difference. Keeping (or endeavoring to keep it as best a sinner can) the Sabbath is simply part of what you ("mainstream" Christians) already uphold and keep/endeavor to keep.

I'm asking, what exactly do you mean that I'm making James' claim is that a person's INDIVIDUAL SALVATION/JUSTIFICATION before God is what he means by faith without works is dead?? I may not understand what you mean by this.

You are standing on the premise that this statement from James is a statement that a person who has no works is not saved. It's that simple. That is what you are claiming.

Isn't that what James is saying and also what Jesus taught in the parable of the Talents? Aren't we in agreement that faith without works is dead? You yourself agree with this. I, however, can see that there are special instances that one may ONLY have time to confess Jesus as their Lord and believe...yet in confession of this, the one "work" necessary for the moment is fulfilled as the expired life has no time to "prove" itself through walking according to the Spirit.

A living faith is different than a saving faith. Granted you can not have a living faith, without first having a saving faith. A living faith is best described by Jesus as an abiding.

So where do we differ?

Where you say gradual, I would say daily. People can fall from fellowship at anytime, just as they can confess, forsake their sin, and be restored to fellowship with God at anytime.

Agreed.

Though we may be progressively sanctified, we are not progressively justified.

Agreed again. As Martin Luther put it,
"Always a sinner, always a penitent, always right with God."

You are saying we are progressively justified by obeying the commandments. One would have to reject the book of Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and most if not all the writings of Paul to follow this.

I did? No I didn't. From the start of all this, I simply stated that true faith has deeds attached as proof of that faith being true. It is true FAITH and faith alone that saves. We are not justified daily, but we are progressively being sanctified.

Where I find you to be in error is that you are taking certain things in scripture and wrongly applying them to fit your theology. You believe in works based salvation, regardless of how you try to state it. You've made it clear. And so, it isn't surprising that you would take these verses from Matt. and James and try to make your case. All I can say, is I completely disagree with that hermanuetic. I think it proves itself wrong, because scripture can not contradict. There is no way to hold to this position and not be forced to reject something from the canon.

Please don't wrongly accuse my "theology" of being "works-based" or Legalism when it is plain from scripture (and I acknowledge) that this is not true. Again it is one word and one word alone that gives you the belief that I promote legalism. It is the one word all Christianity is afraid to hold up with the other 9 that mainstream Christianity seem to be in agreement on "keeping". Do I keep the Sabbath perfectly? Do you not commit adultery perfectly in all senses of the meaning as Christ elaborated on? (e.g. Matthew 5:27)
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[Canuckster1127]

I'm sorry to be late to the party, but it seems to me that the framing of the original question and title of this thread assumes that we need to "do" something as a basis of salvation.

As I understand, all that is required for salvation to be provided was done by Christ and cannot be done by us.

The contingent action on our part is whether we choose to receive what is offered or not.

The age long debate of faith verses works has gone on since the time of Christ, until now, and will continue to go on until Christ returns. I've given up a long time ago, the need on my part to have everything relative to this discussion pigeonholed and systematized. It's not that it's not an important exercise to understand as far as we are able. It is that. But at some point the bottom line for me has become one of relationship with God.

Asking whether works are the basis or the fruit and what constitutes the minimal level of works to demonstrate that faith, etc. seems to me to be a futile matter. Paul in several places indicates the internal evidence of salvation is the witness of the Holy Spirit. That is a qualitative element based upon presence and relationship. It cannot be measured. It is either there, or it is not and the only people who can know that for sure are the person involved and God Himself.

There is no shortage of denominations, movements, etc. that are willing to attempt to define more into it. There are particular passages in scripture, which if isolated and focused on to the exclusion of others are used by some to attempt to move this issue from one of the presence of God within a person's life and heart from which springs relationship to a quantitative formula that removes all the mystery and turns salvation into a series of convenient steps with a checklist to go with it. Keep the checklists. Give me Christ and Christ alone.

blessings,

bart

[B. W.]

Death bed conversions are pretty rare, as B.W. said. What about a situation where a person is saved and continues to live but has no works...and even appears evil? If you do a search for ''fried brain'' you'll read the story of Daniel, a former co-worker of mine. (You are smarter than I, so maybe you can put a link here to that story.) It is in a topic entitledRe: How do we know.

FL

PS I am leaving for France today, so don't expect a quick reply from me.

I'm pretty sure I'd be fine with your friend (I don't have a ton of time to look right now). I think this whole argument on the board is not from God, personally. No one is judging anyone here, there's just a lot of noise. We can't judge if someone is saved or not, it's between them and God. But we still make "judgments" in our life as far as just being able to deal with things the best we can. If I run across a "Christian" who doesn't act like one, I generally avoid them, but I don't judge whether they are saved or not. But, perhaps I should be more bold (I am somewhat shy and don't like confrontation, normally), since in one of John's letters he talks of pointing out a person's sin so that they may repent. Part of the discussion has been toward this issue, and it's an important one. We ARE supposed to repent of our sins. As for someone with a fried brain, or something similar, well God knows about that person. If we are in our "right mind," and know that we are not repenting of sins, then that's a different issue.

Lucky you . . .

I know I have done this - fail to teach about the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster Ride …

What's that?

After a person becomes saved they need to understand the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster as it will help them know the ups and downs we all will experience in the Christian walk.

One moment, you are on cloud ten with the Lord, then next day find yourself in a valley of lowness where all looks so blue, then a quick turn into the pitfall of sin, or another turn into a temper tamptrum, but through it all, as you ride the 1 John 1:9 car, remember the car in which you ride and soon back up to the heights above you go — some excitement — some boredom — some studying — maybe one may ride in the lowlands for a bit till they comprehend whose really in control.

We do not know where a Christian is in their walk with the Lord as they ride the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster. Only the Lord does. This is where real faith arises — the Lord will get you home and see you through as that is the lesson learned from the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster ride!

We can argue about someone not acting such and such a way but remember someone may have said that about you and I too months or years ago!

There is a reason Paul desired the church members to become mature in Christ. So if we live long enough, we too will become mature in Christ and others will marvel and say, “I saw Christ today — really in you!”

Some doctrines just leave people babes in Christ. That's not the goal, only the beginning of the ride!
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[BavarianWheels]

As I understand, all that is required for salvation to be provided was done by Christ and cannot be done by us.

The contingent action on our part is whether we choose to receive what is offered or not.

That first line IS the Gospel. True Bart. We cannot do NOTHING FOR salvation. It is a gift.

That is what, as B.W. above alludes to (IMHO), the Gospel "for babes". But there's more when the convert and "seasoned" Christian live on within this belief. Salvation is the gift of God by grace (ok, so the babe asks, "What is grace?") through faith (the babe says, "what is having faith?") and not of works (the babe might ask, "What are works?") lest any man boast. All these terms are exactly that...TERMS that have deeper meaning behind them. This does in no way take away from the fact that salvation is of faith in Christ alone nor does the apparent meaning of faith (true faith being evidenced by deeds/works) make the Gospel works-based. If it were, then there would be a tally of works. There isn't. Only God and each individual know the heart. I would venture to say God knows our hearts better than we know it ourselves...
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[cslewislover]

I know I have done this - fail to teach about the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster Ride …

What's that?

After a person becomes saved they need to understand the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster as it will help them know the ups and downs we all will experience in the Christian walk.

One moment, you are on cloud ten with the Lord, then next day find yourself in a valley of lowness where all looks so blue, then a quick turn into the pitfall of sin, or another turn into a temper tamptrum, but through it all, as you ride the 1 John 1:9 car, remember the car in which you ride and soon back up to the heights above you go — some excitement — some boredom — some studying — maybe one may ride in the lowlands for a bit till they comprehend whose really in control.

We do not know where a Christian is in their walk with the Lord as they ride the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster. Only the Lord does. This is where real faith arises — the Lord will get you home and see you through as that is the lesson learned from the Holy Ghost Roller Coaster ride!

We can argue about someone not acting such and such a way but remember someone may have said that about you and I too months or years ago!

There is a reason Paul desired the church members to become mature in Christ. So if we live long enough, we too will become mature in Christ and others will marvel and say, “I saw Christ today — really in you!”

Some doctrines just leave people babes in Christ. That's not the goal, only the beginning of the ride!
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I know I've had people think of me in not the greatest way before, we all have. I meant that if someone who says they are Christian, but then is deceptive towards you, lies to you, or more major things like that, I've thought it best to avoid them. I have talked with people, though, who have done this to me, and it has never lead to anything good. That's unfortunate. Other times, I find it too difficult to talk with them, or I hold back for some reason. We all make mistakes and have bad days, and I've found that a number of people whom I thought were Christians have not been forgiving toward me. I'm not sure what else you are referring to?