Mormons vehemently oppose the Trinity

[Obiwan]

Thank you again for your post, The Isaiah passages are the pre -mortal Jesus [Yahweh] who is stating from the structure of the Hebrew I am told is like a exclusivity of a sweetheart ,not denying the existence of others but HE is the ONLY one [GOD] for them. I agree there was none like Yahweh. He knew no ther GOD for the Israelites.

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[B. W.]

Thank you again for your post, The Isaiah passages are the pre -mortal Jesus [Yahweh] who is stating from the structure of the Hebrew I am told is like a exclusivity of a sweetheart ,not denying the existence of others but HE is the ONLY one [GOD] for them. I agree there was none like Yahweh. He knew no ther GOD for the Israelites.

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

Obiwan, did you not realize that the oldest Book of Isaiah was discovered within the Dead Sea finds? The Isaiah scrolls date around 325-200 BCE or BC. That is about 600 years before the Nicene Creed ever came about. In fact, the English Translation of Isaiah currently used in modern translations use the Dead Sea Isaiah scroll. Since this is so, therefore, you will read from that ancient Hebrew text and grammar that it cements the usage of Trinitarian language throughout it. This again predates Nicene Creed.

So if the language used in Isaiah predates your claims about the Nicene Creed and if Isaiah has definitive references about the God speaking of himself in third person grammar, word analogies, and identifies his oneness as being in three distinct presences — would you really consider forsaking Mormonism and consider that the orthodox Christian doctrine of the Trinity is true?

I do not perceive you to be real honest here and unwilling to use the same standard of critique you use against Orthodox Christianity to examine Mormonism. Is this correct?

If you are sincere let us briefly look at how God identifies his presences used in the Book of Isaiah in case you are really seeking to learn. Therefore let's begin and use our own intellect here:

Notice the language used and the use of Arm as used in Isaiah as well as note who is speaking in Isa 52:10: “The LORD has made bare His holy arm in the eyes of all the nations; And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God.” NKJV

Isa 53:1, “Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?” NKJV

God describes that his own arm — holy arm — right arm/hand brings salvation. Now look as Isaiah 40:10, 11, 12, 13:

"Behold, the Lord GOD shall come with a strong hand, And His arm shall rule for Him; Behold, His reward is with Him, And His work before Him. 11 He will feed His flock like a shepherd; He will gather the lambs with His arm, And carry them in His bosom, And gently lead those who are with young.

“12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance? 13 Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has taught Him?”

Who is called the Good Shepherd? Who was involved in creation?

Isaiah 48:12, 13 answers and note God is speaking here:

"Hearken unto Me, O Jacob, and Israel My called: I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. 13 Yea, My hand hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spread out the heavens; when I call unto them, they stand up together." JPS

Notice the usage of three distinct I's — I am… I am… I am… and then note that the Lord identifies that his hand and arm were involved in creation. Hebrews 1:2-3 - Ephesians 3:9 — Colossians 1:16-17 line up with this as well as identifies who this right hand is.

Now note that two hands are mentioned and also Note how Isaiah 40: 13 identifies the Spirit of Yahweh.

Isaiah 34:16 identifies two distinct features - mouth and Spirit, "Search from the book of the LORD, and read: Not one of these shall fail; Not one shall lack her mate. For My mouth has commanded it, and His Spirit has gathered them.”

Note that Jesus is called the Word in John 1:1-2, 14

Also Ezekiel 11:5 tells us that God's Holy Spirit speaks denoting person and also is Yahweh: “Then the Spirit of the LORD fell upon me, and said to me, "Speak! 'Thus says the LORD: "Thus you have said, O house of Israel; for I know the things that come into your mind.”

Keep these things in mind when reading Isaiah when God is speaking and how he uses third person speech in reference to himself as well as descriptions used such as in Isaiah 63:8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14:

"And He saith, Only My people they are , Sons--they lie not, and He is to them for a saviour. 9 In all their distress He is no adversary, And the messenger of His presence saved them, In His love and in His pity He redeemed them, And He doth lift them up, And beareth them all the days of old.

“10 And they have rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit, And He turneth to them for an enemy, He Himself hath fought against them. 11 And He remembereth the days of old, Moses--his people. Where is He who is bringing them up from the sea, The shepherd of his flock? Where is He who is putting in its midst His Holy Spirit?

“12 Leading by the right hand of Moses, the arm of His glory, Cleaving waters from before them, To make to Himself a name age-during. 13 Leading them through the depths, As a horse in a plain they stumble not. 14 As a beast into a valley goeth down, The Spirit of Jehovah causeth him to rest, So hast Thou led Thy people, To make to Thyself a glorious name." YLT

Note verse 9 and the use of the word presence is the Hebrew word pāniym which is a masculine plural noun meaning a faces or presences — not singular but plural!

Notice the word that YLT uses the translated word messenger. This is the Hebrew word for Malak which means word bearer, task doer, messenger. This is not an angelic being as it is solely and directly connected to the word pāniym - presences and this word connected directly in context to Yahweh who is speaking. This reveals that God reveals his presences symbolized as hand — arm — right hand - mouth — etc each denoting differing attributes as well.

There are constantly three presences of Yahweh identified throughout the OT and they are the same one person in three distinct presences or faces. Note the distinct attributes of the Spirit mentioned as well. That is why Yahweh said to Moses, “...tell them , I am, I am, I am sent you” in Exodus.

For God to be in a form of oneness as a tree, image, or any single item is something God says he is not — none like him — no other gods… etc… as Mormonism makes him out to be. If no other gods exist — then there are no lesser gods either.

If there are and can be no other godseven lesser ones — then why do Mormons seek godhood?

What reason was humanity expelled from the Garden of Eden?

Now read Isaiah below - Does Mormonism violate any part of this in its doctrine? Remember our translations of Isaiah predate your argument...

Isa 40:18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him?
Isa 40:19 The workman molds an image, The goldsmith overspreads it with gold, And the silversmith casts silver chains.
Isa 40:20 Whoever is too impoverished for such a contribution Chooses a tree that will not rot; He seeks for himself a skillful workman To prepare a carved image that will not totter.

Isa 40:21 Have you not known? Have you not heard? Has it not been told you from the beginning? Have you not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isa 40:22 It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.
Isa 40:23 He brings the princes to nothing; He makes the judges of the earth useless.
Isa 40:24 Scarcely shall they be planted, Scarcely shall they be sown, Scarcely shall their stock take root in the earth, When He will also blow on them, And they will wither, And the whirlwind will take them away like stubble.

Isa 40:25 "To whom then will you liken Me, Or to whom shall I be equal?" says the Holy One.
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, And see who has created these things, Who brings out their host by number; He calls them all by name, By the greatness of His might And the strength of His power; Not one is missing.

Side Note — Jesus is identified with might (right hand) and Holy Spirit as giving Power…

If this is too in depth - then I can go slower and pick out even more clearer passage from Isaiah for you.
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[Obiwan]

BW thank you for your time for me, I read your post and printed it out to ponder and share with a fellow LDS JEDI KNIGHT Apologist that is extremly well read and familiar with the standard anti LDS polemics that are presented to us adinfinentum which includes the material that you shared in your last post. Patience please. May True Grace Be with You.

In His Debt/Grace
OBIWAN
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Gman]

Obi.. Notice the argument of Mormon theologian Duan Crowther:

"Thus it becomes obvious that there are now, and will continue to be, many [omnipotent] gods who will rule and reign throughout eternity on an ever increasing number of worlds which they will create. This is not in opposition to the Biblical concept of "one God," for an earth serves as the dwelling place for the children of only one God, and he alone reigns over his children there as Father and God."

In other words, Mormons are polytheists because they believe in one god per earth. The fact that there is an endless number of earths each with its own god. Mormonism teaches that God was not God from all eternity, but that He was once a man who evolved into Godhood. This is a doctrine that Mormonism holds is true for all who are currently Gods-and there are endless numbers of them. As noted elsewhere, both historic Mormon theology and contemporary Mormonism teach that there are an infinite number of earths throughout the universe, each one presided over by its own God or Gods.

How do men become Gods? Mormonism believes that all current gods have attained the status of Godhood through the good works they performed when they were once finite men. Joseph Smith describes the process by which men may become Gods: "When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top.."

Blessings..

[Obiwan]

Gman, thank you again for your last post. Where under Heavem and Earth did you come up with Duane [Not Duan] Crowther being a "Theologian" ???. Please, please tell me where he obtained his theological training [School, what were his fields of study ect..., year he graduated]. And where did he obtain authority to promote true LDS doctrine, teaching,Thought, practice,walk that is binding for all LDS members ?. GMan he is the head of a LDS book publishing Company where he writes books and distributes other LDS individuals books in LDS Bookstore's. So your 2nd paragraph is null and void due to Duane Crowther not having any authority to speak on true LDS Doctrine/Thought/Practice/Walk.
We become gods by Jesus Christs True Grace by way of accessing, activating,making alive his Grace in us by what we do to say thank you for his AWESOME sacrifice for us all. May Grace be with you.

In his Debt/Grace
OBIWAN
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[B. W.]

We become gods by Jesus Christ's True Grace by way of accessing, activating, making alive his Grace in us by what we do to say thank you for his AWESOME sacrifice for us all. May Grace be with you.

However this is in direct violation of...

Exodus 20:3, 4, 5 states: "You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me.." NKJV

Exodus 34:14, "for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God..." NKJV

Next, Compare with what the Lord himself declares in the Bible:

Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the LORD, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself And spreading out the earth all alone..."

Add to this...

Jeremiah 32:17, 'Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You..."

And...

2 Samuel 7:22, "For this reason You are great, O Lord GOD; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Jeremiah 10:6, "There is none like You, O LORD; You are great, and great is Your name in might."

Isaiah 46:9, "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me..."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God..."

It does not matter how many earths are in the universe - there is only one God who is perfect in all his ways, and created the heavens and earth - none like him.

Deuteronomy 32:4 - since he is perfect in all his ways, with no beginning or end, he is not a progressive god either progressing toword perfection...

And No other god came before him or will be formed after him…as well ...

Isaiah 43:10, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me..." NKJV

Therefore the Jesus you preach is not the Jesus of the bible. How could he teach it is okay to become gods which is in direct contradiction of his own words and commands about no other gods except Him allowed?

Bible quotes from NASB unless specified otherwise

Aside note - Exodus 34:5, 6, 7 reveals one God in three presences by the grammar and use of Yahweh: "Now the LORD (Yahweh) descended in the cloud and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name (Character) of the LORD . 6 And the LORD (Yahweh -1) passed before him and proclaimed, "The LORD (Yahweh-2), the LORD God (Yahweh Elohim-3), merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, 7 keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation." NKJV

However there is one who wants to become god, teaches others the same desire, who seeks perfection - his name is Lucifer - Satan - the former covering Cherub... Isaiah 14 - Ezekiel 28 gives you plenty of clues. Please note - a cherub is not a god...

Who are you listening too?
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[Gman]

Gman, thank you again for your last post. Where under Heavem and Earth did you come up with Duane [Not Duan] Crowther being a "Theologian" ???. Please, please tell me where he obtained his theological training [School, what were his fields of study ect..., year he graduated]. And where did he obtain authority to promote true LDS doctrine, teaching,Thought, practice,walk that is binding for all LDS members ?. GMan he is the head of a LDS book publishing Company where he writes books and distributes other LDS individuals books in LDS Bookstore's. So your 2nd paragraph is null and void due to Duane Crowther not having any authority to speak on true LDS Doctrine/Thought/Practice/Walk.

Obviously I misspelled his name... That quote came from his book "Life Everlasting" pg. 361. Duane is a well known theologian among Mormons. A graduate from BYU. More here..

http://www.duanescrowther.com/biographical_sketch.html

Duane has a Masters Degree from Brigham Young University in Old and New Testament, an M.B.A. from the University of Phoenix, and has completed course work for a Ph.D. in music education at the University of Utah.

We become gods by Jesus Christs True Grace by way of accessing, activating,making alive his Grace in us by what we do to say thank you for his AWESOME sacrifice for us all. May Grace be with you.

And apparently his beliefs are right on given this statement by you saying that "we can become gods.. "

[Obiwan]

Thanks for the clear up on Duane S. Crowther, I misspell names [and other words as well] .

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Gman]

Thanks for the clear up on Duane S. Crowther, I misspell names [and other words as well] .

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

No problem Obi.. I always misspell words. I would fail miserably if it wasn't for spell check..

[Obiwan]

Gman my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother In Christ Jesus and I [in very small way by me ]did reasearch on the "theologian" Duane S. Crowther [We are fans of Sherlock Holmes/Columbo] and his supposed theologian title. I called a # of REAL LDS Professors/Scholars that I know and they all told me there is no such thing as a Mormon "Theologian" and that Duane S. Crowther was not a "theologian". My friend stated that the Biographical sketch could not have been written by him, that it the [server ?] goes back to a buisness website "Breakthrough Consulting" from Wisconsin. Another interesting note is that on the website for the Book company that Duane S. Crowther is the Owner of on his Biographic sketch about him it mentions no "theologian" also there is no claim of THD next to his name [To be a Theologian must one have a THD I am told]. My friend also noted that the quote by Duane S. Crowther that you gave from Life Everlating page 471 has been modified from it's original form by use of the word/title "Omnipotent". There are 2 scenarios here either Duane S.Crowther considers himself a "theologion" because he is well read [many individuals I imagine do this] or someone has added that title to him without his knowledge. Also my friend suggested that you put away John Ankerberg/John Weldon's book and stop cutting and pasting from the works : What do Mormons Really Believe [subtitled What the LDS do not tell you] page #42 2002, which is word for word from -"Behind The Mask Of Mormonism". Your quotes are word for word from those works From my understanding these works have been reviewed by LDS Professor/Scholar of Middle Eastern Studiers Daniel C. Peterson which is available through The Neal A. Maxwell Institute [ formerly - F.A.R.M.S = Foundation For Anchient Reasearch and Mormon studies. These are trivial issues but connected to the subject at hand.

May Grace Be with You.
In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT.

P.S I will not be around tomorrow due to the holiday, may you have a blessed day

Anyway I hope and pray that you are blessed this night, may True Grace Be with You.
In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Gman]

Gman my LDS JEDI KNIGHT Brother In Christ Jesus and I [in very small way by me ]did reasearch on the "theologian" Duane S. Crowther [We are fans of Sherlock Holmes/Columbo] and his supposed theologian title. I called a # of REAL LDS Professors/Scholars that I know and they all told me there is no such thing as a Mormon "Theologian" and that Duane S. Crowther was not a "theologian". My friend stated that the Biographical sketch could not have been written by him, that it the [server ?] goes back to a buisness website "Breakthrough Consulting" from Wisconsin. Another interesting note is that on the website for the Book company that Duane S. Crowther is the Owner of on his Biographic sketch about him it mentions no "theologian" also there is no claim of THD next to his name [To be a Theologian must one have a THD I am told].

I don't know if I follow you.. His web site clearly shows him as being a theologian.

"Duane S. Crowther is well known and highly qualified as an author, scriptorian, theologian and lecturer."

Source: http://www.duanescrowther.com/biographical_sketch.html

My friend also noted that the quote by Duane S. Crowther that you gave from Life Everlating page 471 has been modified from it's original form by use of the word/title "Omnipotent". There are 2 scenarios here either Duane S.Crowther considers himself a "theologion" because he is well read [many individuals I imagine do this] or someone has added that title to him without his knowledge. Also my friend suggested that you put away John Ankerberg/John Weldon's book and stop cutting and pasting from the works : What do Mormons Really Believe [subtitled What the LDS do not tell you] page #42 2002, which is word for word from -"Behind The Mask Of Mormonism". Your quotes are word for word from those works From my understanding these works have been reviewed by LDS Professor/Scholar of Middle Eastern Studiers Daniel C. Peterson which is available through The Neal A. Maxwell Institute [ formerly - F.A.R.M.S = Foundation For Anchient Reasearch and Mormon studies. These are trivial issues but connected to the subject at hand.

Yes those quotes and accusations did come from John Ankerberg/John Weldon's book.. I'm not denying that.. However the claim is still true no matter how much you want to discredit Duane S. Crowther's views or theological stance. Mormons believe that their god evolved into godhood, the same way that Jesus evolved into godhood. AND that a mormon can also evolve into the godhood and thus become a god and rule their own world sometime in the future. This completely unbiblical. Please stop denying this..

In fact even you stated that you can become a god.. So what is your response to that accusation?

[Obiwan]

Gman, my above post in explanitory and still stands/explains what we have found concerning Duane S. Crowther, either in his mind he is a theologian or put there by someone who has not checked his training background. " Evolved" ? sorry the LDS JESUS Is The ETERNAL GOD By nature - a Check of LDS Scriptures would show you this. I have been LDS for a # of years teaching children,young adults,adults,missionaries, been to hundreds of Church Services/Sunday School Classes/Men's Meetings/Firesides/listened to and read church authorities and have never heard/read them state that GOD The Father/GOD Jesus Christ/"evolved" into "GOD". Also there is no 'We can evolve into a god to rule over our "own planet", that is Ed Decked godmakers rhetoric . It would been honest of you to state that you were using John Ankerberg/John Weldons work when posting previously. I am about to retire for the night and celebrate our brave servicemen past/present for there service to GOD/Fellow man. Have a blessed night. I will get back to you later, thanks for caring even though you are being phariseeic about it.

In His Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI KNIGHT

[Gman]

Gman, my above post in explanitory and still stands/explains what we have found concerning Duane S. Crowther, either in his mind he is a theologian or put there by someone who has not checked his training background. " Evolved" ? sorry the LDS JESUS Is The ETERNAL GOD By nature - a Check of LDS Scriptures would show you this. I have been LDS for a # of years teaching children,young adults,adults,missionaries, been to hundreds of Church Services/Sunday School Classes/Men's Meetings/Firesides/listened to and read church authorities and have never heard/read them state that GOD The Father/GOD Jesus Christ/"evolved" into "GOD". Also there is no 'We can evolve into a god to rule over our "own planet", that is Ed Decked godmakers rhetoric . It would been honest of you to state that you were using John Ankerberg/John Weldons work when posting previously. I am about to retire for the night and celebrate our brave servicemen past/present for there service to GOD/Fellow man. Have a blessed night. I will get back to you later, thanks for caring even though you are being phariseeic about it.

But you stated that you "become" gods.. Looks like evolving to me...

Here is a copy and paste of your own words...

"We become gods by Jesus Christs True Grace by way of accessing, activating, making alive his Grace in us.."

[Obiwan]

O now we are going to word pick ?, 'become" is used by me as the caterpillar "becomes" a Butterfly [The Butterfly is In the caterpilar] it just needs to come out by metamorphisis. My statement still stands.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI Knight

[Gman]

O now we are going to word pick ?, 'become" is used by me as the caterpillar "becomes" a Butterfly [The Butterfly is In the caterpilar] it just needs to come out by metamorphisis. My statement still stands.

In His Eternal Debt/Grace
Obiwan
LDS JEDI Knight

Well not exactly Obi... Even if you don't want to use the word "evolve" you still become Gods.. See the link below..

There are many Gods for other worlds, and each God is equal to the God of this world in terms of His nature.

There are many gods who create and rule over other worlds, and on those worlds, worship excludes the God of our world. So there is only one God for us, and this God is typically referred to as the Heavenly Father. Mormons may also speak of the term "God" in reference to "the Godhead," which is a team of separate Gods (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 576-7; Joseph Fielding Smith, ed., The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]; Abraham 4:1, Pearl of Great Price; Gospel Principles, 245 [1997 edition], and 302; "God," LDS Bible Dictionary; and Blake Ostler, "Review of The Mormon Concept of God: A Philosophical Analysis by Francis J. Beckwith and Stephen E. Parrish," FARMS Review of Books [Provo, UT: FARMS, 1996], 99-146).

Human beings may become Gods for other worlds as God is God for this world.

Worthy Mormons may become gods to create, rule over and receive worship from their own worlds some day. They will do this exclusively as the god or the team of gods for that world or that set of worlds (like the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are for this world or this set of worlds), and thus the God of this world will not perform those functions there (Ibid; D&C 76:50-8 and 95, 132:15-23, 29, and 37; and Gospel Principles, 302 [1997 edition]).

Jesus has not always been God.

Jesus, like all other gods before Him, had to become a God. He is the literal Son of God like we are children of God, but He's without sin (Fielding Smith, The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 346-7 [pre-2002 edition]).

Source: http://www.mormoninfo.org/

Or if you prefer directly from the BoM. They clearly teach GODS...

HE BOOK OF ABRAHAM
TRANSLATED FROM THE PAPYRUS, BY JOSEPH SMITH
CHAPTER 4
The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the aGods, borganized and formed the cheavens and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and adarkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods bwas brooding upon the face of the waters.
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was abright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

Source: http://scriptures.lds.org/abr/4