Pope John Paul II dies

AttentionKMartShoppers · Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:57 pm

Brian, watch it with the caps, and remember that an opponent in a debate is like a bird on a branch-the more you blow, the harder he holds on...but a slight gust of wind could catch him off guard.

Atheist, it's intriguing that you say there is no evidence for Christianity. You said you're....40 or so (I think?), so you're not some adolescent who types in Christianity online and bases his life off that (HOPEFULLY

). So, what kind of research did you actually do?

And, I think tossing in GK Chesterton here is worth the while. Something of interest that he said was that an evolutionist (which you must be to be an atheist)(and you said it also, that helps) finds the idea that God created the universe out of nothing as impossible, but the idea that the universe created itself out of nothing is more logical (a butchery of his exact words, I'm sure).

I'd like to say that if you deny that God created you and your intricate mind, that you should doubt your every thought, since they are nothing but random electrical signals caused by your brain, which is the result of billions of years of random chance...happy hunting.

Quote:
Hey atheist, you know what, we as Christians hold strong beliefs, you on the other hand, don't.

Sure. Strong doesn't mean right

Whoever said the first thing, realize his faith is just as strong as yours-probably stronger, since he has to believe in something that goes against logic and reality. And atheist is right about strong being right

.

And lastly to Brian....everything is not a sign or strange event (the rain stopping at the death of someone or whatever....we probably have a death a minute or so, so shouldn't the world experience only intermittent showers?

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:40 pm

atheist wrote:who are we to expect an afterlife? Just a bunch of creatures evolved from less sophisticated creatures and isolated in a tiny world lost among billions of stars. Why should we deserve such a privilege? Why would we need or want another life? Just to erase our fears? To extend our miseries?

You're right, we deserve no such privilege at all. But that is the exact reason why the message of Jesus is so powerful! That is why I know in my heart that Jesus is Lord - because though we deserved nothing, we are given everything. No other religion or belief system can make that claim. That's the gospel right there - we deserve nothing because we all fall short of God's glory, yet we are freely given the unimaginable gift of spending eternity with the one and only God.

Romans 5:8-9
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

You see, we are created in God's image with the capability of loving Him and being loved by Him. This is truly the message that you should contemplate while consciously rejecting His existance, rather than the lies being fed to you by other nonbelievers about whether God acts justly. Were He to act justly we WOULD simply die and cease to exist. Praise the Lord that He has given believers grace.

atheist wrote:I don't know what you mean by "the fabric of my being" (though it might make a nice metaphor) but I seriously doubt about that "knowledge".

I mean that deep, deep, deep, down, I believe that you know on some level that Jesus is Lord. I believe this because the Bible makes it clear that every human is given the basic understanding that God exists - it's just part of who we are. Plus, if you truly don't believe in any small way, ask yourself why you started believing long ago when you were still innocent.

Honestly there's no need to reply to my message here. I feel that I've explained to you why I know my beliefs to be true - the rest is up to you. And thanks so much for sharing your personal views on mortal life.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:38 am

On one hand, I envy you. I hope you are happy ... you do sound a little bitter.

Oh, no! On the contrary. Life is so sweet to me now I'm free from the burden and prejudice of religion. Getting rid of all the religious paranoia was my most deeply spiritual adventure so far...

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:56 am

So, what kind of research did you actually do?

Pretty ample, but more concentrated in philosophy and history these days.

And, I think tossing in GK Chesterton here is worth the while. Something of interest that he said was that an evolutionist (which you must be to be an atheist)(and you said it also, that helps) finds the idea that God created the universe out of nothing as impossible, but the idea that the universe created itself out of nothing is more logical (a butchery of his exact words, I'm sure).

I'd like to say that if you deny that God created you and your intricate mind, that you should doubt your every thought, since they are nothing but random electrical signals caused by your brain, which is the result of billions of years of random chance...happy hunting.

I don't think one must be an evolutionist to be an atheist. Remember there was atheists and agnostics way before Darwin, and atheists are very different from each other since individual thinking is the main goal. Anyway, evolutionists do not usually claim to take evolution to the origin of the universe, which until now admits many theories. But, as far as I see it, the debate "evolutionists vs. creationists" is kinda pointless. The question about an ultimate founder of the universe is usual in philosophy. It is legitimate to ask about the ultimate principles. But, has this quest got necessary a religious concern? Since religion needs a "personal" God, the proper question for religion is if there's a "personal" God, not just a creator or an "intelligent designer" away from the world, but an entity that actually mingles in people's lives and gladly receives the worshipping of believers. Actually, it doesn't matter if there is a creator that, for instance, put evolution in motion. What I find real hard to believe or understand is that a God like the Christian God could exist.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:11 am

I mean that deep, deep, deep, down, I believe that you know on some level that Jesus is Lord. I believe this because the Bible makes it clear that every human is given the basic understanding that God exists - it's just part of who we are. Plus, if you truly don't believe in any small way, ask yourself why you started believing long ago when you were still innocent.

As I stated somewhere else in this forum, the problem is that, to be completely honest, my disbelief in Christ came directly from Christ himself as portrayed in the NT. I never saw His character, merits or preach remarkable in any sense (please acknowledge that I don't intend to offend anybody saying this, it's just my personal experience and that's all). I lied to myself for many years, but finally I broke the pressure of education and environment and only recently "came out of the closet" to express my particular opinion on the subject. All my family is Catholic, my education was Catholic and I grew up in a Catholic society. That's the main reason for people beliefs, not real thinking, not real decision or choice. That's the reason why the overwhelming majority of Chinese gets into buddhism, Occidentals get into Christianism, Arabs get into Islam, and so on. In the "fabric of my being" I don't perceive Jesus; in fact, he is a complete stranger there.

You're right, we deserve no such privilege at all. But that is the exact reason why the message of Jesus is so powerful! That is why I know in my heart that Jesus is Lord - because though we deserved nothing, we are given everything. No other religion or belief system can make that claim. That's the gospel right there - we deserve nothing because we all fall short of God's glory, yet we are freely given the unimaginable gift of spending eternity with the one and only God.

So, the reason to believe in this religion is that it is so utterly absurd that it has to be true??? You know, this is the kind of reasoning that actually made me think twice about the whole thing. This very argument was used by Tertullian to prove the truthness of Christ resurrection. I still remember how I gasped in astonishment the first time I read it. No disrespect intended, but when you refer to "the lies being fed to you by other nonbelievers", I must say that at least nonbelievers always gave me strong, coherent arguments and the benefit of doubt.

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:14 am

I lied to myself for many years, but finally I broke the pressure of education and environment and only recently "came out of the closet" to express my particular opinion on the subject. All my family is Catholic, my education was Catholic and I grew up in a Catholic society. That's the main reason for people beliefs, not real thinking, not real decision or choice. That's the reason why the overwhelming majority of Chinese gets into buddhism, Occidentals get into Christianism, Arabs get into Islam, and so on.

I absolutely agree completely here.

Oh, no! On the contrary. Life is so sweet to me now I'm free from the burden and prejudice of religion. Getting rid of all the religious paranoia was my most deeply spiritual adventure so far...

Getting rid of the burden that the bible is the "absolute word of God" and the "us v. them" mentality of religion and the "eternal hellfire and damnation" was a great relief to me. In fact, I talked with a "Christian" who had also come to certain conclusions about these things and I realized that I never really believed all that stuff, it was just that I needed something to believe. Life is very hard and ovewhelming sometimes, and I understand why people would hope for "something more" or a way out. That having been said, I do believe there is a "Creator" ... I can't prove it to anyone and I don't have to. And I dare not define him. Maybe I believe this because of some need deep down inside, or maybe I have been brainwashed with the idea of "God" all my life, or maybe when I look at the awesome beauty of our earth I feel a kind of ... spirit, a kind of love ... or maybe it's the science books I have been reading (including Richard Dawkins, bless his exploring little "atheistic" heart), among other physicists etc. who do believe in some kind of Intelligent Force that created all things from the science they have studied. I don't know. But I can't shake the suspicion that ... there is Something or Someone greater than man that created the universe. Some ... Life. I don't define it or even give it human emotions ... I am not sure what it is ... but it certainly isn't the punishing and rewarding Jehovah or Allah.

In the "fabric of my being" I don't perceive Jesus; in fact, he is a complete stranger there.

I love this man Jesus. I don't belief he is God ... I don't know if he performed any miracles ... I wasn't there. But for me, his words (if indeed the authors of the New Testament got most of them right) are miracle enough. His "spirit" speaks to mine.

Life is so sweet to me now ...

I want to be able to say this but can't seem to yet ... for you, is it just that a burden has been lifted, a yoke of religion put around your neck and now you can breath again? Life always seems sweeter after a burden has been lifted. Or do you really find this life sweet? I know not all the time but ... I guess what I'm saying is ... I am struggling to get comfortable with what I perceive as the truth. Which is not what I believed for the majority of my life ... the last 20 plus years. I want to find peace. Yet ... I can't seem to. Not real peace. Maybe it is not meant to be. And while I can't believe as I did before ... I am struggling to find purpose, yet I know that beyond this very moment, the here and now, I perceive there is none. That's how I see it right now, anyway.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:24 am

seedling wrote:Getting rid of the burden that the bible is the "absolute word of God" and the "us v. them" mentality of religion and the "eternal hellfire and damnation" was a great relief to me.

...

I want to find peace. Yet ... I can't seem to. Not real peace. Maybe it is not meant to be. And while I can't believe as I did before ... I am struggling to find purpose, yet I know that beyond this very moment, the here and now, I perceive there is none.

Sigh... Is it possible for you to take a step back and actually listen to yourself? I guess all I can say is that if you keep seeking this higher power, your creator, the Lord will lead you back to Him.

atheist · Post by **atheist** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:31 am

That having been said, I do believe there is a "Creator" ... I can't prove it to anyone and I don't have to.

Exactly. I just can share this kind of vision. Some Christians take offence from the "private" character of other people's beliefs. I don't know, maybe it is the old "that who is not with me is against me", or the horrible compulsion to preach to another people's face after two thousand years of malpractice. But I still think that "private" should be the natural character of religions.

for you, is it just that a burden has been lifted, a yoke of religion put around your neck and now you can breath again? Life always seems sweeter after a burden has been lifted. Or do you really find this life sweet?

Well, it's been quite some time now. The relief was huge, indeed. But now life seems so sweet in the quiestest way. All the hatred of religion against "this life" sometimes veils how unique and wonderful "this life" really is. All that I was told bad, turned up to be the most exquisite experience. Sex above all, free thinking, joy, undisputed and overwhelming joy, no innecessary guilt, knowledge without restrictions, no apples, no schemes, no Gods, no Satan, just you and the universe in fluid and no holds barred dialogue... Yep, definitely not an illusion, not a myth, just rejoicing reality, with all its flaws and miseries... Like the whole world was anew.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:35 am

atheist wrote:
Well, it's been quite some time now. The relief was huge, indeed. But now life seems so sweet in the quiestest way. All the hatred of religion against "this life" sometimes veils how unique and wonderful "this life" really is. All that I was told bad, turned up to be the most exquisite experience. Sex above all, free thinking, joy, undisputed and overwhelming joy, no innecessary guilt, knowledge without restrictions, no apples, no schemes, no Gods, no Satan, just you and the universe in fluid and no holds barred dialogue... Yep, definitely not an illusion, not a myth, just rejoicing reality, with all its flaws and miseries... Like the whole world was anew.

This is what I don't Understand. I find all the joy you are talking about believing in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour! The things I have been told that were bad were Drugs, Alcohol etc... Those things ruin your body, mind and life. Sex, Free Thinking, guilt, Knowledge... are all things that God gave you. However I believe in Sex inside the Marriage as that is where it should be

Tim

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:31 am

All the hatred of religion against "this life" sometimes veils how unique and wonderful "this life" really is.

Yep, definitely not an illusion, not a myth, just rejoicing reality, with all its flaws and miseries... Like the whole world was anew.

Do you think that people turn to religion or a belief in "God" because they see the inequity and uncertainty of this life and hope that "God" or whoever, whatever, will one day be the great Equalizer? Say, some 20 year old is in a car accident and is paralized from the neck down for the rest of their life ... or say I was born in Afghanistan, destined to wear a burka until I die, wed to some nut who beats me when he pleases, or I have some other horrible thing that makes my life "less than" enjoyable. I guess people don't like to hear "play the hand that's dealt you, that's all there is." Maybe this is my "problem" in that I hang onto a belief that there's got to be a Creator, that there's got to be something after this life ...because I see that there is inequity, unfairness in this "throw of the dice" world ... that man suffers and knows he suffers ... he is self-conscious. But then again, there could be a Creator, and he may not care at all about what our suffering is or isn't, or if we live or die or continue somehow after physical death or not.

I can relate to what you said about the enjoyment ... after I found out that I didn't believe "God" was like Santa Claus (he sees you when you're sleeping ... he knows if you've been bad or good ...) I began to relax ... I felt free. I think if there is a Creator, and if we are any reflection of him, I think this is what he would want for us. To feel free.

I don't know, I am just thinking outloud ...

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:38 am

I guess all I can say is that if you keep seeking this higher power, your creator, the Lord will lead you back to Him.

I am seeking, Felgar. I just don't want to comfort myself with beliefs that are not true. My hope right now is that there is ... Someone who cares for us ... but that is just MY hope and my mind is human and I think like a human being. If there is a Creator, which I think there probably is ... I have no idea what he would "think" or "feel" ... if anything. All I can gather is that somehow, the creation reflects him. And we are part of that creation.

Felgar · Post by **Felgar** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:16 pm

seedling wrote:I am seeking, Felgar. I just don't want to comfort myself with beliefs that are not true. My hope right now is that there is ... Someone who cares for us ... but that is just MY hope and my mind is human and I think like a human being. If there is a Creator, which I think there probably is ... I have no idea what he would "think" or "feel" ... if anything. All I can gather is that somehow, the creation reflects him. And we are part of that creation.

The exact feelings that you are conveying is the very thing that I believe is built into us, and given to every human by God. You are evidence for my claim that deep down everyone understands exactly what you have stated here.

My thought remains the same though; keep seeking and you will find the Lord. You are half-way there, and I believe that you are being called to close the gap.

AttentionKMartShoppers · Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:12 pm

Oh, no! On the contrary. Life is so sweet to me now I'm free from the burden and prejudice of religion. Getting rid of all the religious paranoia was my most deeply spiritual adventure so far...

The prejudice and paranoia should be blamed on the correct source. It is not Christianity (that's where you left from)-it might be your or someone who said it is...but it's not Christianity's doing.

I don't think one must be an evolutionist to be an atheist.

You can just ignore the question of origins I guess.

So, the reason to believe in this religion is that it is so utterly absurd that it has to be true???

Christianity is a paradox, but remember, a paradox is something that SEEMS to contradict itself on first glance.

That's the main reason for people beliefs, not real thinking, not real decision or choice. That's the reason why the overwhelming majority of Chinese gets into buddhism, Occidentals get into Christianism, Arabs get into Islam, and so on. In the "fabric of my being" I don't perceive Jesus; in fact, he is a complete stranger there.

You're taking your experience and applying it to everyone. Yes, it is true, there are people who worship like their parents and don't think WHY. That's why many people fall from Christianity-the only reason they go through the motions is because there family did. And the Chinese, and Arabs get into their respective religions is because that's all they have over there (Christians are going into China, of course...but I don't know if they do in the Middle East...they should, of course...).

Getting rid of the burden that the bible is the "absolute word of God" and the "us v. them" mentality of religion and the "eternal hellfire and damnation" was a great relief to me.

The fact (not to you, it seems) that the Bible is the absolute word of God was a burden? haha. And it's not an "us vs. them" mentality, I thought it was more along the lines of "us saving them."

the horrible compulsion to preach to another people's face after two thousand years of malpractice.

It is wrong to be concerned for others? And what malpractice? You make me wonder "how in the...." a lot.

I think if there is a Creator, and if we are any reflection of him, I think this is what he would want for us. To feel free.

God does give freedom. Peter said you can do whatever you want-the fact, though, is not everything is good and edifying. Christianity should not be taught as a long list of right and wrong...it's a relationship.

Corinthians 10:23
All R397 things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify. R398

Seedling, people who believe in God are not weak.

seedling · Post by **seedling** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:23 pm

Seedling, people who believe in God are not weak.

Yikes, KMart ... I never said people who belief in God are weak ... I don't think I even implied it!

And it's not an "us vs. them" mentality, I thought it was more along the lines of "us saving them."

They (Christians) don't "save" anybody (whatever "saved" means). When people are truly "saved," they have saved themselves. The words of others and their honest and believable experiences with life aid in that process. Jesus in a way "saved" me ... he was a man who owned himself and lived moment by moment and knew how to meet each moment's requirements ... he knew man's deep needs ... he knew that we should love our neighbor as ourself; he knew about real love; he knew about sacrifice. He knew about false things and true things; he wasn't a hypocrit. He was faithful to the truths he saw, even though he knew they would kill him for it. I think the title the "Son of Man" truly fit him.

j316 · Post by **j316** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 5:43 pm

The one mistake all of you are making is a lack of perception of personal religion as a process.
Before you get offended, which most of you do quickly, I am sure that many of you recognize it is a process, yet you do not demonstrate it in your writing, therefore I suspect that the reality of it is not really there.
If you are not changing as a christian you are not a christian. No change means that either you were essentially ok anyway or nothing really happened.

In the course of reading these posts atheist is very simple and consistent, showing more of the essential nature of Jesus than most of the rest of you. He has gotten away from an oppressive and restrictive religion and claims to have found peace, this is the same as what Jesus offered those who heard Him. I don't believe, from reading his posts, that he is at the point he will come to finally. He is only where he is now, as are all of us.

I am 60 years old and have been at this seriously for the past twenty years. You would not believe how much I have changed, actually how much I have been changed by the spirit that has dwelt in me. Atheist, you don't realize where you are at this point spiritually, you can now welcome a real Lord, one who definitely does exist. The inaccurate understanding of God is what kept the jews from accepting Christ, it is easier for those who have no knowledge of christianity than those who inherited an inaccurate knowledge of it. This is possibly the real interpretation of the story of the wealthy young man.
I have many times wondered if many churchpeople nowadays would truly recognize Jesus when He returns or if they would simply react as the jews did. That would be a good debate topic.
Anyway, I don't believe that God will be as hard on the atheists of the world as He will be on the hypocrites, slanderers and spreaders of false doctrine.