Let us make make man in our image.

Discussions surrounding the various other faiths who deviate from mainstream Christian doctrine such as LDS and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Poetic_Soul
Established Member
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:23 pm
Christian: No
Location: Providence, RI
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

Let us make make man in our image.

#1

Post by Poetic_Soul » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:45 pm

Gen 1:26
Who is US and who is OUR?

User avatar
Mastermind
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1410
Joined: Fri Nov 19, 2004 3:22 pm
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#2

Post by Mastermind » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:47 pm

Trinity

Poetic_Soul
Established Member
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:23 pm
Christian: No
Location: Providence, RI
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 1 time

#3

Post by Poetic_Soul » Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:51 pm

Amen....I was trying to bring out the atributes of Christ to those who believe that Jesus is nothing more than an angel.

Anonymous
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

#4

Post by Anonymous » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:52 am

“Allah, (may He be glorified and exalted), sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning):

48:1 'Verily, We have given you a manifest victory”;

and other similar phrases. But Allah (may He be glorified and exalted) never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He (may He be glorified and exalted) is far above that.”

The words, innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say “We have decided…” etc. This is known in English as “The Royal We”. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allah (may He be glorified and exalted), so when He says in the Qur'an innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers.

And the same applies to the bible.

2:163 And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

112:1 Say: He is Allaah, the One.

“Hear O'Israel, OUR God, is Lord ALONE.”

Every time Allah (may He be glorified and exalted), uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honor that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels. And Allah (may He be glorified and exalted), knows best.

With regards to the title theme “Let Us make him in Our Image”, The Quran corrects this disrespect and tells us;

95:4. Verily, We created man of the best image (stature or mould),

95:5. Then We reduced him to the lowest of the low,

95:6. Save those who believe (in Islâmic Monotheism) and do righteous deeds, then they shall have a reward without end (Paradise).

95:7. Then what (or who) causes you (O disbelievers) to deny the Recompense (Day of Resurrection)?

95:8. Is not Allâh the Best of judges?

Even Paul tells you that God(may He be glorified and exalted), is the blessed and only ruler and no one has seen him nor can see him.

1 TIM 6:13 I charge (you) before God, who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus, who gave testimony under Pontius Pilate for the noble confession,
6:14 to keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ
6:15 that the blessed and only ruler will make manifest at the proper time, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
6:16 who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, and whom no human being has seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal power. Amen.


40:57. The creation of the heavens and the earth is indeed greater than the creation of mankind, yet most of mankind know not.

40:58. And not equal are the blind and those who see, nor are (equal) those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), and do righteous good deeds, and those who do evil. Little do you remember!

40:59. Verily, the Hour (Day of Judgement) is surely coming, therein is no doubt, yet most men believe not.

Christian2
Advanced Senior Member
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:27 am
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 11 times

Poetic_Soul, US and OUR

#5

Post by Christian2 » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:36 am

Hello,


There are several verses in the Old Testament where God speaks as a plurality. Many trinitarians quote these verses to help support the Trinity doctrine because they strongly suggest that there is more than one person in the godhead.

"Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth,” (Gen. 1:26, NASB).

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever," (Gen. 3:22, NASB).
“Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech,” (Gen. 11:7, NASB).

"Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” (Isaiah 6:8, NASB)

Those opposed to the doctrine of the Trinity say that God is speaking of Himself in any "royal" sense, in a "plural of majesty." They can say this, but biblically there is never any account of a king or a ruler speaking of himself in a plural sense or in the third person. So, there is no biblical support for God using it of Himself in this way.

In regards to Gen. 1:26, those who deny the Trinity say that God when God says, "Let Us make..." He is speaking with the angels in mind. The problem with this is that angels do not create. There is absolutely no biblical evidence that angels created anything at all. We see in Isaiah 44:24, "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, “I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, Stretching out the heavens by Myself, And spreading out the earth all alone." God made all things alone. Therefore, the "us" in "Let Us make man in our image" cannot be the angels. Furthermore, people are not created in the image of angels, but of God.

The three verses in Genesis do not prove that the Trinity is true. However, they cannot be dismissed by the assumption that God is speaking of himself in a type of third person way.

Furthermore, notice in the force verse above, Isaiah 6:8, that's God is speaking in the singular and then switches to the plural. He says, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" This is on the unusual construction. The singular speaker refers to himself in the plural.

Source: http://www.carm.org/doctrine/letusmake.htm

Hope this helps.

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re:

#6

Post by jenna » Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:00 pm

Mastermind wrote:Trinity
Old post, with new answer. This is not the "trinity", but God the Father speaking to God the Son (Jesus), they are two SEPARATE beings.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Re:

#7

Post by FFC » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:52 pm

jenwat3 wrote:
Mastermind wrote:Trinity
Old post, with new answer. This is not the "trinity", but God the Father speaking to God the Son (Jesus), they are two SEPARATE beings.
Who was it that said that He shall have no other Gods before Him? The Father or The Son?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#8

Post by jenna » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:07 pm

I think He was talking about FALSE gods. This passage was originally in the O.T., so it would have been God the Son (Jesus). At this point in time no one even knew of the existence of God the Father.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#9

Post by FFC » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:26 pm

jenwat3 wrote:I think He was talking about FALSE gods. This passage was originally in the O.T., so it would have been God the Son (Jesus). At this point in time no one even knew of the existence of God the Father.
Really? Who did they think Yaweh was? I would have thought it was just the opposite.
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
jenna
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:36 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Gap Theory
Has liked: 70 times
Been liked: 23 times

Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#10

Post by jenna » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:34 pm

Actually the only One revealed to them in the old testament was God the Son. This is who they actually called "Yahweh". God the Father was never actually revealed until the N.T.
some things are better left unsaid, which i generally realize after i have said them

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#11

Post by bizzt » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:22 pm

jenna wrote:Actually the only One revealed to them in the old testament was God the Son. This is who they actually called "Yahweh". God the Father was never actually revealed until the N.T.
So who is Jehovah Jireh then?
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day,

Wait wait wait

Or maybe "I AM"
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I am a little confused here. Is it the Father or Jesus OR maybe they are One?

Exo 6:2 And God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

Just as confusing?? well maybe lets take a few other verses
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

User avatar
BavarianWheels
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1805
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:09 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Southern California
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 14 times

Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#12

Post by BavarianWheels » Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:44 pm

bizzt wrote:
jenna wrote:Actually the only One revealed to them in the old testament was God the Son. This is who they actually called "Yahweh". God the Father was never actually revealed until the N.T.
So who is Jehovah Jireh then?
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day,

Wait wait wait

Or maybe "I AM"
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I am a little confused here. Is it the Father or Jesus OR maybe they are One?

Exo 6:2 And God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

Just as confusing?? well maybe lets take a few other verses
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NIV - John 1:1-3 wrote:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Christ is the Creator.
.
.

FFC
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1684
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:11 pm
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#13

Post by FFC » Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:22 pm

BavarianWheels wrote:
bizzt wrote:
jenna wrote:Actually the only One revealed to them in the old testament was God the Son. This is who they actually called "Yahweh". God the Father was never actually revealed until the N.T.
So who is Jehovah Jireh then?
Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day,

Wait wait wait

Or maybe "I AM"
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

I am a little confused here. Is it the Father or Jesus OR maybe they are One?

Exo 6:2 And God spoke unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

Just as confusing?? well maybe lets take a few other verses
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
NIV - John 1:1-3 wrote:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Christ is the Creator.
.
.
John 14:

7"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."
8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."

9Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
"Faith sees the invisible, believes the unbelievable, and receives the impossible." - Corrie Ten Boom

Act 9:6
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

User avatar
bizzt
Prestigious Senior Member
Posts: 1654
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:11 pm
Christian: No
Location: Calgary
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Let us make make man in our image.

#14

Post by bizzt » Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:20 am

:amen: Amen to that Bav and FFC!

I guess what I was trying to get at is that the Jewish People in the Old Testament knew the Lord as Yahweh, Jehovah. They believed in One God! That God is God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. y:O2 Plain simple to the point :)

SaintConfused
Recognized Member
Posts: 58
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:39 pm
Christian: No
Sex: Male
Creation Position: I don't believe in creation
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:

Re:

#15

Post by SaintConfused » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:42 am

Mastermind wrote:Trinity
I don't mean to offend, but the trinity doctrine isn't a primary part of Isrealite laws or a centralized focus of Judaism as a whole. It is considered idolatry
against The one God of Isreal & The Tanakh. The 'us' in Genesis 1:26 more appropriately would be referring to God's court of heavenly beings and not a
Trinity.
Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. Psa 148:2
In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto a
nother, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. Isa 6:1-3
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27
Unless it can be demonstrated that 'his' or 'he' actually means more than one 'person', it doesn't show a Trinity existing as it is. It's not like no Heavenly figure (including angels) does not have it's own 'human' image. I don't see it explaining in detail that 'he' is actually 'them' or 'their' or anything like that, which is plural, more than one God or God being composed of three. From both the Psalmist & Isaiah, the LORD is not spoken of as being more than one while on his throne, or within his praised condition.~SC
You were the Chosen One! It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!~Obi-Wan Kenobi.

Post Reply