Marxism.

[Leprechaun]

In response to Ashley:
I was not using those quotes to promote "Christian Communism" (it's the first time I have heard that phrase actually). My point was that the Bible does not condemn it (well not as far as I can see). I was merely trying to say that accusing one system of being "evil" because of it's flaws (which are manmade rather than part of the ideology) is to condemn every system (every system has manmade flaws even if their ideologies are sound). I would have to agree with Daniel with regards to the welfare state (I am Irish and our govt. health is ridiculous but that is because of mismanagement not principle). Welfare should always exist as it gives help to the poor or disadvataged to those extreme capitalists who would argue that the poor are only poor because they won't work etc. you are wrong a lot of poor people work far harder than rich people for less return and for those who still disagree waht about the children of the poor? Should they go out and make a living? If it wasn't for state welfare I would probably be dead or starving or uneducated etc. as would my brothers and sisters would that be our fault? It is true that some people are poor of their own making but should their children suffer? The answer is no. State benefits/health is the only humane system unless of course business' set up free hospitals etc. but is that likely?

[Ashley]

I sitll think that communism is evil system, largely because of its clear denial of God's existence. It is an obvious offence.

The systems that you are living in your countries are different from a world where mainly communism rules. The welfare state is like a casino where people either work for betting to climb career ladders or set up business to create values for their own benefits. It is more of egoism (so freedom and liberty is essential for it to run ). However, where a casino is set up, there must be winners or losers. Those losers can live under safe-net (the welfare system).

In a communist world, however, everything is altruism. There is no self and no God. The resources and everything in a country is co-owned by the people. They are rationed so that everyone gets an equal share. There is no adventurous enterprenuership, no winner or loser, let alone any welfare (no body needs welfare at all because everyone is supposed to have enough and needs not work to create value).

God is a god of work. He creates the world in 6 days and rests on 7th day. He said that everything he has created is good. Day by day, the creation is becoming more and more complicated. I have doubt if communism serves God's purpose.

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[B. W.]

People equate Marxism with communism which is the wrong way to approach understanding Marxism.

The best phrase that captures the meaning in my opinion is “Evolutionary Socialism.”

A from of socialism that evolves and communism was part of that process as was Nazism. Italian Fascism of Mussolini is anther example. Today it has evolved in Smiley Face Fascism.

Socialism supports a caste system of intellectual elites called to rule the rest of 'a' miserable society. It's structure can be traced back to Plato's republic. This ruling elite would make sure all of societies ills were taken care of and enforced according to their whims.

Modern ideas developed by use of the Social Conflict Theory in order to consolidate power and control of a ruling intellectual elite class over the masses. This basically states that the use of any conflict, natural catastrophe, or even a contrived imagined potential catastrophe, should be used to consulate power of this elite. Through such conflicts the masses will give up certain liberties and freedoms for their protection in a series of trade offs (Note — Hobbs' Leviathan Social Contract Theory).

All this is done under the guise of the noblest reason, take care of the poor, save the planet, cure social injustice, etc and etc. The reason why socialism is wrong is that it creates a caste system of 'haves' controlling every detail of the lives of the 'have-nots.'

Toss in the sin nature of humanity, you can see why this dangerous. Instead of Utopia you'll end up with a 'leader' who gets things done and historically this leads into tyranny.

The use of Scape Goat theory is often used to bring this about. Bismarck in Germany did this approach as do all elitist socialist. They'll use real villains and even make up villains out of innocent people to further their power and control. They'll hammer to masses and keep pounding and use the sickle to remove oppositions to achieve a ruling intellectual elite class to rule over the masses controling every facet of the masses lives: Who lives — who dies -- Who gets what resource and how much - etc and etc — all for the most noblest sounding reasons to justify their power of course.

Socialism was designed to evolve. The goal was to evolve slowly by removing all the kinks out of various experiments till you find one that works.

Jesus was offered the kingdoms of this world with promises of no repercussions and all the food he wanted by Satan in the wilderness. Jesus refused. However, socialist do not.
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[Leprechaun]

I was not saying that communism was a good system I pointed out that it had faults like every other system. I don't want to live under a communist system. However I would have to disagree with you on one point. Communism isn't a claim that God doesn't exist because it is an economic system just because in practice the leaders were athiest and they enforced athiesm doesn't mean the system is Godless that would be like saying....that....pages are Godless. Pages aren't Godless people might use the pages to write athiestic things but the page itself isn't inherently Godless nor is it inherently evil it is meerly evil and godless because the people who are in power in these systems (in practice tend to be athiest) but it is entirely possible to believe in God and be a communist because it is an economic theories and economics can't be godless unless it clearly states it is evil, however the communist theory does not say "Kill God, kill the people, make them suffer", it's just that the people in power are athiest and power mad. Communism is primarily an economic system it doesn't even exclude democracy you can still vote in this system although the leaders choose to make it a dictatorship even free speech etc. aren't banned in a communist system it's just the leaders like it to be banned. The system isn't godless or evil it is the people who run it as the system is purely economic nowhere does it say "No God, No human rights, No democracy!" it's just in practice....well.
(Interesting fact: although claiming to be athiest Stalin often prayed in the Kremlin. HIs bodyguard said he often prayed just not around any other politicians, weird huh he denied faith to others but practiced it himself)

[Ashley]

I post the following link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale

It is a song "The Internationale" sung by the communists:

"There are no supreme saviours
Neither God, nor Caesar, nor tribune.
Producers, let us save ourselves
Decree the common welfare
That the thief return his plunder,
That the spirit be pulled from its prison
Let us fan the forge ourselves
Strike the iron while it is hot
|: This is the final struggle
Let us stand together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race "

I guess Stalin prayed because the Russians are Orthodox community.

[Ashley]

Modern ideas developed by use of the Social Conflict Theory in order to consolidate power and control of a ruling intellectual elite class over the masses. This basically states that the use of any conflict, natural catastrophe, or even a contrived imagined potential catastrophe, should be used to consulate power of this elite. Through such conflicts the masses will give up certain liberties and freedoms for their protection in a series of trade offs (Note — Hobbs' Leviathan Social Contract Theory).

All this is done under the guise of the noblest reason, take care of the poor, save the planet, cure social injustice, etc and etc. The reason why socialism is wrong is that it creates a caste system of 'haves' controlling every detail of the lives of the 'have-nots.'

Toss in the sin nature of humanity, you can see why this dangerous. Instead of Utopia you'll end up with a 'leader' who gets things done and historically this leads into tyranny.
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It is impressive. I never studied it in details. It occurs to me that socialism leads to tyranny-like world just as well as captialist world. it is the capitalists who control the people in the latter case.

[Daniel]

Do you believe that sharing resources is inherently evil? If so, how do you explain the actions book of Acts?

How people interpret a philosophy is no fault of the philosophy itself. We don't judge Christianity to be true or untrue based the actions of the Crusades or Salem Witch Trials or by the anti-Semitism of the church in the Middle Ages. You're making a very hasty generalization.

[Leprechaun]

I post the following link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Internationale

It is a song "The Internationale" sung by the communists:

"There are no supreme saviours
Neither God, nor Caesar, nor tribune.
Producers, let us save ourselves
Decree the common welfare
That the thief return his plunder,
That the spirit be pulled from its prison
Let us fan the forge ourselves
Strike the iron while it is hot
|: This is the final struggle
Let us stand together, and tomorrow
The Internationale
Will be the human race "

I guess Stalin prayed because the Russians are Orthodox community.

Ashley again this is communists who are singing. The system does not say such things it is just some of the people who follow the system. If these people enforce their views onto others then it still does not count. Just becuase people pervert the system does not mean that the system is inherently evil as "the system" (not those involved in practice) does not say that there is no God, the system does not say we should put people in gulags it is merely those in charge who are corrupt not the system itself. It is quite possible to have religious,democratic and free communist countries without violating any of the tenents of communism it is just in practice that this is not so. On a sidenote can I ask what your comment about Stalin was supposed to mean?

[B. W.]

Do you believe that sharing resources is inherently evil? If so, how do you explain the actions book of Acts?

How people interpret a philosophy is no fault of the philosophy itself. We don't judge Christianity to be true or untrue based the actions of the Crusades or Salem Witch Trials or by the anti-Semitism of the church in the Middle Ages. You're making a very hasty generalization.

There is a big difference between socialism and Christianity in the book of Acts.

For example, the first members of the Church loved each other and lived that love on to another. It was because of LOVE — God's love circumcising their hearts is the big difference. They loved God and his love was reflected back into their local communities through them to each other. It is tragic that through persecution this radical commitment one to another was pushed out of memory.

Look at 1 John 3:10-11: "By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another."

Socialism looks at Acts 2:45 interprets this as socialism or a form of religious communism and justifies such things as Christian Socialism, Liberation Theology, etc. They forget that the Gospels and Acts chapter 1 and 2:1-44 comes before verse 45.

I want you to think on this a bit more:

If we, in our local Churches really actually loved each other what would it look like?

Communism, Socialism, Capitalism cannot produce this kind of love. Only thing they produce is force to comply and guilts scape-goating (guilts scape-goating is summed up like this - it's someone's fault for not giving enough let's take it! Therefore State demands it and the Bible justifies it!)

Communism, Socialism, Capitalism are inventions of men to gain the world. These cannot produce the love in ones heart that lay's down their life for their fellow Church members. If the Christian Church rose up out of its slumber and began to love one another — conversions would be massive.

This type of Love cannot come from Communism, Socialism, or Capitalism. It can only come from the Lord as it is written:

Jeremiah 9:23-24. “Thus says the LORD: "Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom (philosophy), let not the mighty man boast in his might, let not the rich man boast in his riches, 24 but let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me, that I am the LORD who practices steadfast love, justice, and righteousness in the earth. For in these things I delight, declares the LORD."

John 17:21-26, “…that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me… 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

That's is the difference. In Acts 2:45 they Loved — really Loved not read Marx, nor Dewy, nor Mao's little red book. THEY LIVED LOVE THAT GOD GAVE — SHINED IT INSIDE THEIR LOCAL ASSEMBLIES.

This Love comes by knowing the Lord how he loves and by repentance...there is no other way.
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All Bible Quotes from ESV

[Leprechaun]

Hi B.W. Ok I have a few issues, first of all ..eh I have never heard of a Christian Communist country perhaps you can give an example but either way I think it is unfair to label all communism (especially the theory) as pretending that their mandate comes from God. All though I can see why you believe that no system is the right one which is correct as they all have their faults which become multiplied by humanity. However I have an issue regarding socialism I would like you to define what you mean by it, for example communism is an extreme form of socialism and unemployment benefit is another form (though not quite as extreme, obviously). So I would like to know what aspects of it you mean as "socialism" is not a form of goverment it is merely a political outlook which has a broad range. Saying socialism is a type of government is like saying that being conservative is a type of governmant. Also I have to disagree with you about the fact that these systems are inherently evil as most are first thoght of with the idea of improving the world and I have to disagree that limited socialism is evil, I think a completely capitalist is far more "evil" (as it has been put) than a socialist one as in a completely capitalist system those who are injured or can't work are simply left to die.

[Ashley]

I think a completely capitalist is far more "evil" (as it has been put) than a socialist one as in a completely capitalist system those who are injured or can't work are simply left to die.

First of all those who are injured or can't work are not left to die. They are covered wtih welfare system. The problem with capitalist system is rather the capitalists and the unemployed who enjoy the welfare. I trust that we can look at this from two vantage points:

(1) while the capitalists work hard (which is respectable) to create value (both lucky lady is with them and they pursue with perseverence), they start to abuse their power upon success, their hearts are getting corrupt and they become keen to exploit the work-force for their own benefits.

(2) likewise, some people dropping out of the work-force either strive back to work hard or simply stay in unemployed class to survive with welfare (which the public denounce at times). The welfare system is actually generating from tax revenue collected by the government. It is paid by the taxpayers who are actually either the capitalists themselves or the workforce toiling for them. Some people suggest extreme communisms or socialism which is actually trying to bypass the tax system to exploit back the capitalists and wealthy class. Such movement is certainly unhealthy because we can't play down the capitalists' and workforce's massive effort to create value to the public.

A good governance in a place should be one that strikes a balance between (1) and (2). Currently, however, there is heavier problem with (1) than with (2) because people are invariably more religious about wealth and power, overlooking the mourning of the suppressed and poor. It is not uncommon to see the wealthy and powerful enterpreneurs making rapacious business decisions at the expense of public interests.

Christian faith work well for the poor and needy. It is inevitable, however, that there are people lounging around, lousy and just taking advantage of welfare. They give themselves up.

[Leprechaun]

Ashley this is exactly the point I was trying to make an "entirely" capitalist system does not have welfare payments however a capital system with small elements of socialsim does. Unemployment benefit, welfare etc. are socialist elements of a capitalist economy so therefore even if the country is very capitalist it is still diluted. A completely pure capitalist system should not have any socialist elements so in a completely undiluted system there would be no welfare however there are no such systems in this world, similarily there are very few completely communist economies for example China is becoming slightly more open (albeit not by much).

[B. W.]

Hi B.W. Ok I have a few issues, first of all ..eh I have never heard of a Christian Communist country perhaps you can give an example but either way I think it is unfair to label all communism (especially the theory) as pretending that their mandate comes from God. All though I can see why you believe that no system is the right one which is correct as they all have their faults which become multiplied by humanity. However I have an issue regarding socialism I would like you to define what you mean by it, for example communism is an extreme form of socialism and unemployment benefit is another form (though not quite as extreme, obviously). So I would like to know what aspects of it you mean as "socialism" is not a form of goverment it is merely a political outlook which has a broad range. Saying socialism is a type of government is like saying that being conservative is a type of governmant. Also I have to disagree with you about the fact that these systems are inherently evil as most are first thoght of with the idea of improving the world and I have to disagree that limited socialism is evil, I think a completely capitalist is far more "evil" (as it has been put) than a socialist one as in a completely capitalist system those who are injured or can't work are simply left to die.

Here is a link to look into what Christian Communism is and it indeed exists, another term that can also fit the definition has been called 'liberation theology' - Link Below:

wikipedia brief summery

Next

My main point is that there is no perfect solution any human government system Communist, Socialist, or Capitalist can come up with that cures all societal ills. Next point I tried to make is this: the bible is not a socialist manifesto. The bible premise is for people to love God with all their being and their neighbor. No human government system can achieve this.

I hope that the readers do not equate the teachings of Jesus as well as examples of the early church in the book of Acts teaching Marxist or various forms of Socialism. It is clear from the bible that what Jesus taught and the early church gave example too was Love: God's love toward people who loved him in return through demonstrating this love — one to another. Is Marxism, Socialism, Communism how one defines Agape Love?

Do these scriptures read?

John 13:34-35, “A new commandment I give to you, that you be a Marxist, Socialist, Communist with one another: just as I have taught Marxism, Socialism, Communism you, you also are to be Marxist, Socialist, Communist to one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have Marxism, Socialism, Communism toward one another."

Mat 22:37-39, “And he said to him, "You shall be a Marxist to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall show Marxism, Socialism, Communism to your neighbor as to yourself.”

Or?

John 13:34-35, “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

Mat 22:37-39, “And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Main Point

You cannot equate that the bible teaches Marxism, Socialism, Communism, or even Capitalism. It does not. It teaches how to love. When we look into ourselves, we see how far each of has fallen. Marxism, Socialism, Communism, and Capitalism is a poor excuse not to love God and our fellow Christian's in our own local assemblies but much easier to practice living rather than Godly agape love.

Socialist read into the bible what cannot be read out of the bible. The bible speaks of God's work on the human condition by the means of God's restoring love. If people really loved each other — what would the results be in society?

The problem with any human governmental system (Communist, Socialist, Marxist or Capitalist) is exemplified by how the ruling oligarchies rules in any country. Look at the US Congress for example; do you want such idiots ruling without any checks and balances?

On the last paragraph of this article on Socialism it states:

Some individuals, such as Winston Churchill, have claimed that socialism slowly evolves into a totalitarian regime when people begin to defect from supporting it. During his 1945 election campaign Churchill stated that:

...a socialist policy is abhorrent to the British ideas of freedom. Socialism is inseparably interwoven with totalitarianism and the object worship of the state. It will prescribe for every one where they are to work, what they are to work at, where they may go and what they may say. Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely. No socialist system can be established without a political police. They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance.

Notice Churchill's words: They would have to fall back on some form of Gestapo, no doubt very humanely directed in the first instance. 'Very humanely directed at first' should send shudders down your spine as we enter the new century!

“Socialism is an attack on the right to breathe freely”, Churchill said. Now note what Global Warming suggest as well, the 'haves' verse 'have nots' mantra, as well as toss in the oil/energy crisis etc and etc. Notice that as the medieval Church once did (which Luther protested against) we now have a new religion where one can purchase the indulgences of 'carbon credits' so that from these coins 'ching, 'the environment can spring!'

I would agree that a mix between socialism and capitalism might work better than a single entity system but the problem is how it degenerates into punishment of the opposition if the opposition does not agree the ruling elite's point of view. The ruling oligarchy will oppress and silence the opposition, even if the opposition has the best invention in the world that solves the entire world's energy problems — if coming from an opposing party — it will be silenced without remorse or thought.

That is the totalitarian reality of all politics summed up simply as scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. When the Liberal Democrats have power in the US government those big Major Corporations that side with them benefit, the others are demonized. When the Republican Conservatives are in power a similar thing happens but to a lesser degree. The difference is this: the Major Corporations that do not side with the Republican Conservatives are not demonized. Instead, they placate the opposition with compromises.

The Congressional Oligarchy in the USA has the lowest approval ratings I have ever seen. Each political party supports the major Corporations that support their respective parties. They, as a whole, show disdain toward the common US citizens needs and 'under the guise of 'humanely directed' purposes they take away from the American people more and more till there will be nothing left to take.

What is wrong with human systems of government can be summed up as — the human propensity toward sin. By sin, I do not mean the stereotypical depiction of sin but rather the struggle to dominate and control. People crave dominance in a wide variety of ways. It is the way of selfishness, not love. It comes disguised in 'humanely directed' purposes in order to gain ultimate power and control.

Please do not think the bible teaches Marxism, Socialism, Communism, Capitalism is all I am trying to say...
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[Leprechaun]

I was not saying that the Bible thought communism. I was merely saying that labelling communism as inherently evil (that is moreso than any other government) was wrong as I ahve already said that all governments have their faults. I am not promoting communism or Christian communism or any government type, I said they all have their faults and that there is no perfect system. I only had issues with the fact that people were saying that some economic systems were inherently evil and I was annoyed with the anti-socialism displayed by some people as clearly they do not understand socialism at all. Socialism does not mean extremism, for example trade uninons are a part of socialism, welfare benefits ar part of socialsim, maternity leave is a part of socialism, now clearly these are not extremely socialist and most countries have these. I was annoyed with the fact that people invariably associated socialism with extreme socialism. Socialism does not equate to communism in the same way that conservatives are not always fascists. Anything left of centre whether is generally socialist whether it be an inch or a mile. Socialism is NOT a form of government in the same way conservatism isn't. socialism is a term which applies to a broad range of issues and a socialist society does not imply communism, suppresion of liberties etc. People are confusing all forms of socialism with extrem socialism. This is WRONG. Socialism applies to a lot of aspects of modern day countries in fact there are no modern democracies without some socialist elements, laws etc. Socialism is not a government type socialism is not communism! Socialsim is small things like state-funded schools. Perhaps if people took the time to understand what things really were rather than simply generalising them (ie Socialism is evil because it is Communism) then we wouldn't have so much prejudice and hatred. For the record I am slightly socialist. NO! I don't believe in suppresion of the media. NO! I don't believe in communism. NO! I don't believe in overthrowing the wealthy. NO! I don't believe in the removal of democracy. Those are elements of extreme socialsim ie communism not all of socialism. I like the idea of state-funding for schools and hospitals, I like the idea of trade unions, I like the idea of unemployment benefit. If this makes me a communist in your books it amkes you a fool in mine.

[Leprechaun]

Sorry B.W. I have just reread your post and I apologise for the response I made as it seemed a bit enraged. Reading what you wrote again I realise that you were not saying what I was accusing you of. However I still stand by what I said and it applies to anyone who believes that socialism=communism.