Canuckster1127 wrote:
We're approaching the issue in many ways from 2 different angles.
We're starting with grace and moving from there as a relationship maintained by grace in which we as God's children seek to love Him and please him and certainly no one here that I'm hearing nor am I advocating antinominanism which is the idea that you're saved and then you can live like you want.
Frankly, I think there will be a lot of surprised "Christians" who will stand before God whom God will declare as never having been saved because they're basing their salvation on having prayed a prayer and there's no evidence or fruit in their life. For the Christian, we follow God because He first loved us, we in return love Him and receive His Grace and then we walk in His continued Grace as Children, adopted heirs of God, secure in that relationship. We don't sin because we have license to do so. We seek by His Grace not do because we love Him and don't want to grieve Him or His Holy Spirit.
Curiously Romans speaks of obedience to the one you serve...however I hear nothing of obedience in your above rendition of being a Christian. Following God means obeying God. Obedience comes after...not before receiving Grace.
Then you're not listening. What do you think the evidence and fruit is? I stated it clearly.
You don't sin you say. How on earth do you know what sin is if not through the law? The law points at sin and curses the sinner because by law the sinner cannot find salvation. I really wish you would understand this concept of abiding in the law (imperfectly) as a means to follow in God's will AFTER having received His grace. Romans 6:15 tells we are (now) slaves to obedience...which leads to righteousness.
You seem purposely choosing to miss what you claim is not there. The condemnation of the law is to point to our need for Christ. When we are in Christ there is therefore no condemnation and we walk in grace responding out of Love for God as Heirs of Christ.
Which part specifically says, "...that Sabbath day I said to remember...that's no longer my word...I was just joking and it was ONLY for those crazy Israelites..." Only God can remove that which He's put as law. If He does change His law, he lies in saying He never changes. So I would like God's word in the NT that the Sabbath is no longer within His will for man.
These are where the individual commandments of the Old Testament are reinstated specifically in the New Testament:
The 1st commandment was reinstated in Matt. 22:37; 1 Cor. 8:5,6.
The 2nd commandment was reinstated in 1 Jn. 5:21. (Col. 3:5 and Eph. 5:5 broadens idolatry to include covetousness.)
The 3rd commandment was reinstated in Col. 3:8.
The 5th commandment was reinstated in Eph. 6:1-3.
The 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th commandments were reinstated in Rom. 13:8-10; Matt. 19:18; Gal. 5:14; 1 Cor. 6:9,10; and Gal. 5:19-21.
The general appeals to the law that I see some make lose sight of the fact of several things in my opinion.
9 of the 10 commandments are specifically reinstated in the NT, but the Sabbath is not. In fact several passages specifically indicate that the Sabbath of the Old Testament is not carried into the new but is in fact not a moral law, but a ceremonial law.
This makes sense from several points of view that I see:
1. The Saturday Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel (not the church) as a memorial of their deliverance from Egypt.
"Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day" (Deut. 5:15).
"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" (Exo 31:16,17).
2. Christians are given liberty on this matter alone in the 10 commandments as again the other 9 are specificially reinforced and regiven in the NT. With regard to the setting aside of days liberty is granted.
"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord ...." (Rom. 14:5,6)
If Saturday Sabbaths were still in force, there would be no such liberty.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ." (Col. 2:16,17 )
Further, the early Church as demonstrated was already moving toward a Sunday observance as demonstrated in these 2 passages.
On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight (Acts 20:7).
On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made (1 Cor. 16:2).
3. The concil of Jerusalem in Acts 15 addressed many issues in terms of the law and the keeping of many elements of it by the Gentiles and conspicuously absent was the keeping of the Sabbath.
4. Paul tells us the purpose of the law in these two passages.
"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith." (Gal 3:24)
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Rom 3:20)
As the Sabbath is not continued into the New Testament it is not anything we need to be conscious of as it is not sin to follow the Liberty given.
5. If the Saturday Sabbeth is still in effect under Christ then Christ ordered a man to sin as demonstrated by this passage.
"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk' " (John 5:7-11).
This is where the law is given that Jesus was commanding this man to "violate."
"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy (Ex. 20:8-11).
Again, here's what the old testament sabbath law states.
"The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat" (John 5:9,10).
It's expanded further in
"This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers. Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked and would not listen or respond to discipline. But if you are careful to obey me, declares the LORD, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it" (Jer. 17:21-24).
So how about it? Is Jesus commanding the man to sin or are those advocating Sabbath keeping exercising their own selectivity as to what they will do or not do?
Here's some laws related to the Sabbath in the OT that I've not heard brought forth by those advocating the yoke of a law not commanded in the NT.
"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" (Exo. 31:14-17)
Again, note the emphasis on "Israel".
"Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day" (Ex. 35:3, KJV).
Do Sabbath keepers light their stoves or run their furnaces on the Sabbath?
So there you go. You've asked several times and made the appeal to the 10 commandments as being all or nothing. The NT doesn't command it and in fact grants liberty in the matter. You're free to use your liberty as you see fit.
As to the other statement I'm saddened you feel they were directed exclusively to you. I think we've discussed items of this nature before and been civil and I've not changed in my desire of that.
Now, again, if you believe I'm misusing my moderators powers in this issue, please feel free to discuss it with the other moderators or with the Board Founder.
Enough is Enough.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
And to a large degree, it 
