The Sabbath Day
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The Sabbath Day
I'm not Judjing you. I think I'm looking for a reason not to keep it and be like every one else.
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Re: The Sabbath Day
That's a good question.Gary E. Moreland wrote:We try to keep the other nine. Why not the forth one?
The Word tells us how to impress Him.
Why do we follow the morality of the 10 commandments? Is it an issue for the Christian? Why does the passage quoted above from Colossians specifically address Sabbath Keeping as an issue fulfilled in the righteousness of Christ? Does that mean there is no value or wisdom in a regular day of rest and worship? Can we follow that without falling into the trap of trading in Christ's righteousness for our own? Where do we draw the line?
Where in the Word does it tell us how to impress Him and how does it reconcile with the rest of His word in terms of where we are now in terms of our relationship with the Law and Christ's finished work?
What would you suggest?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Re: The Sabbath Day
I appreciate that. I'm not seeking to judge you either or to entice you to violate your conscience.Gary E. Moreland wrote:I'm not Judjing you. I think I'm looking for a reason not to keep it and be like every one else.
I'd encourage you to do some study and ask some more questions. More to the point, perhaps, explain why you hold to the standard you do now and what you believe would be wrong if you modified it.
I would suggest that a motivation to be like others, while understandable and a very honest response, is not the same as seeking to understand what the Bible has to say about it.
Dig a little. I think you'll find the Bible has the answer and you may find it very freeing.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Ex;8-11
He tells us how to keep this commandment.
He tells us how to keep this commandment.
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The Sabbath Day
I have been digging and I cant find anything that gives me permision to break this commandments, or any of them.
Where do I look?
Where do I look?
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Re: The Sabbath Day
What does the New Testament tell us about the purpose of the Old Testament Law?Gary E. Moreland wrote:Ex;8-11
He tells us how to keep this commandment.
What do these passages say?
Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18
Is there a difference between Israel and the Church?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Re: The Sabbath Day
What of the passage in Colossians? Why is Sabbath Keeping specifically addressed there?Gary E. Moreland wrote:I have been digging and I cant find anything that gives me permision to break this commandments, or any of them.
Where do I look?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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I take that vers as Proof that the Colosae church practiced the Sabbath and that Saint Paul tought them to Keep it. and not to let others to talk you out of it
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When you have time, and want to address this in depth,
I would direct you to this article on the main board written by a former Seventh Day Adventist and how he came to understand this differently in view of the counsel of the whole Word of God.
No-one is suggesting that you cannot be a Seventh Day Adventist and still be a saved Christian. So do not take this as judgement. I hope you'll find it helpful and challenging.
If you click on the link to the original article, you'll be able to see the footnotes below. I did not include those here.
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/seventhday.html
I would direct you to this article on the main board written by a former Seventh Day Adventist and how he came to understand this differently in view of the counsel of the whole Word of God.
No-one is suggesting that you cannot be a Seventh Day Adventist and still be a saved Christian. So do not take this as judgement. I hope you'll find it helpful and challenging.
If you click on the link to the original article, you'll be able to see the footnotes below. I did not include those here.
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/seventhday.html
Matthew 5:17-19; Too Slender of a Reed to Support Seventh-Day Sabbatarianism
By Wesley Ringer
About the author
Wes Ringer is a former Seventh-Day Adventist who used to teach Adventist doctrine. However, during comparison of Adventist beliefs to the words of the Bible, Mr. Ringer came to the conclusion that many doctrines in Adventism were incorrect and subsequently left the church. Mr. Ringer is now actively involved in a nondenominational church, and is preparing for full-time ministry as a Bible translator.
We've all had the experience of putting together a jigsaw puzzle. At first there seem to be too many pieces. Then there are certain pieces that we cannot seem to find. Others just do not seem to fit anywhere in the puzzle. The complete picture cannot be clearly seen until one first sees how each piece of the puzzle connects to all the other pieces. I believe that Matthew 5:17-19 is in many ways like a jigsaw puzzle. If we only look at a few of the pieces of this puzzle and do not see how they connect with the other pieces we will come up with a distorted picture of what Christ meant. I have numbered seven different pieces to this puzzle. In Matthew 5:17-19 Jesus said,
(1) "Do not think that I came to abolish the (2) Law or the Prophets: (3) I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. (4) "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, (5) not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, (6) until all is accomplished. (7) Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches other shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
This paper will seek to explore whether or not Sabbatarians can legitimately use Matthew 5:17-19 in support of their Sabbatarian views. The Sabbatarians link pieces 1, 2, 4, 5 and 7 of this puzzle to conclude the text to be saying the following. They believe that Christ is stating that His mission was not one that abolished the Law of God, and that not one letter or stroke shall pass from the Law while heaven and earth remain. Therefore, every letter of the Law is to remain unchanged as long as heaven and earth endure. They see the force of this argument in His statement that "…truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law…" [Matthew 5:18]
Therefore, since heaven and earth have not passed away Sabbatarians maintain that every letter of the Ten Commandments still stands and that God is calling all who are truly His people to keep them. Christ underscores this by stating that anyone who fails to keep, and teach others to keep, even the least of the Ten Commandments shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Certainly, the Fourth Commandment that begins with the words, "Remember the seventh-day to keep it holy" would be considered one of the least of these commandments. In conclusion therefore, Sabbatarians maintain that Jesus Christ calls all who believe on Him to keep the seventh-day Sabbath of the fourth commandment.
Seventh-day Adventists focus on the fact that Christ said that He had not come to abolish the Law. However, they fail to note pieces 3 and 6 of the puzzle. In Piece 3 of the Puzzle Christ states that He has come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Moreover, Piece 6 states that not one letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law until all is accomplished. It is only by failing to ask if Christ had fulfilled the Law and the Prophets that Seventh-day Adventists are able to conclude that every jot and tittle of the Law is still in force. It logically follows that every part of the Law, including the seventh-day Sabbath, would still be in effect if Christ has not yet fulfilled all that the Law and the Prophets said concerning Him. In that case, Christ would still be calling all of His disciples to keep even the least of the commandments. [Matthew 5:19].
This line of argument of the Seventh-day Adventists creates several problems. First, it must assume that Christ has not fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. This would seem to demand that Christ had somehow failed to complete the mission that He had stated for Himself in Matthew 5:17, and that He misspoke when He declared on the cross "It is finished." [John 19:30] Secondly, Christ stressed that not the least commandment would fail or even a single letter would be removed from the Law "until all is accomplished." He had much more in mind than the keeping of the Ten Commandments. The whole Law, with its temple worship and animal sacrifice would still need to be continued if all had not been accomplished. Then also circumcision must still be performed on the eight day on all who would be part of the Covenant. Christ could not be the High Priest of the New Covenant since He came from the tribe of Judah and according to the Law only someone born of the tribe of Levi could be High Priest. Hebrews 7:18 explicitly states that before Christ can become our High Priest there must first be a setting aside of the former commandment. Christ cannot bring in the New Covenant without making the first covenant obsolete. "But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." [Hebrews 8:13].
Let us now look at each piece of the puzzle the and then see what whole picture emerges. In the first two pieces of the puzzle Jesus says, (1) "Do not think that I came to abolish (2) the Law or the Prophets:" The phrase Law and the Prophets are used seven times in the New Testament. See Appendix One. The way they are used in the New Testament indicates that Law refers to the five books of Moses (Genesis-Deuteronomy) and the Prophets refer to all of the Old Testament prophets. When Christ recites the Golden Rule in Matthew 7:12 He indicates that this rule summarizes all that the Law and Prophets had to say. Therefore neither the Law nor the Prophets can refer to a select portion of either but is rather a reference to the entire Mosaic Law and all of the sayings of the Prophets from Genesis to Malachi.
Clearly if Jesus had come to abolish the Law and Prophets rather than to fulfill them, it would mean that they never had a valid purpose. This would imply that both the Law's moral commands and the Law's temple services with their animal sacrifices neither revealed God's moral will nor pointed forward to any future Messiah who really would be the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. [John 1:29]. Then all the prophecies concerning the coming Messiah would be false and without fulfillment. The Law then, never would be the revealed will of the Creator God of the Universe had entered into a Covenant with Israel His people nor would He have ever spoken through the mouth of His Prophets.
In the Third Piece of the Puzzle Jesus Christ affirms that He had not come to abolish but to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. See Appendix Two for texts that state the Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets. By affirming that the Law and the Prophets really did need to be fulfilled, Jesus was proclaiming that the Creator God of the Universe had really redeemed Israel from Egypt and had made a Covenant and Law with them. Christ's statement also affirmed that God had truly spoken through the Prophets of a coming Messiah who would bear the iniquity of us all [Isaiah 53:6]. Not only had the Prophets truly spoken of a coming Messiah but Jesus claimed to truly be that long expected Messiah when He stated that He would fulfill all that the Law and the Prophets had proclaimed. After His resurrection, He told His disciples, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must by fulfilled. [Luke 24:44] Christ's words in Luke 24 confirmed that He in fact had fulfilled all that the Law and the Prophet had said concerning Him.
When only Pieces Four and Five of the puzzle are viewed in isolation does it seems that not the smallest letter or stroke has passed away from the Law. Since heaven and earth still exist, then neither the smallest letter nor stroke has passed away from the Law. However, the fourth and fifth pieces to the puzzle must not be viewed in isolation. In the third piece of the puzzle, Jesus said that He had come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets. Furthermore, the Sixth Piece completes the thought begun in the fourth and fifth pieces. (4) "for truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, (5) not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, (6) until all is accomplished. Clearly, the idea of "until all is accomplished" finds a parallel in Christ's statement that He had come to fulfill the Law and the Prophets.
Christ here affirmed that it was important that every part of the Mosaic Law remain in effect until the New Covenant was ushered in. At the beginning of Christ's public ministry, He had proclaimed that the Kingdom of God had come. However, it was only at the Last Supper that Christ introduced the New Covenant, which was based on His shed blood. During His earthly ministry Jesus repeatedly sought to conceal His true identify. Christ demanded that the demons not reveal who He was. When Peter revealed that he believed Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Jesus warned His disciples to tell no one that He was the Christ [Matthew 16:20]. He did this because His time had not yet come. [John 7:6] When Christ cried it is finished on the cross and the veil in the temple was torn in two then the New Covenant was at the point of being ushered in.
However even after Christ's resurrection He bade His disciples to remain in Jerusalem until the Holy Spirit should be poured out with power upon them. [Act 1:8] On the Day of Pentecost as the Holy Spirit was poured out upon the believers thousands of Jews beheld this glorious event. Peter in his preaching explained the significance of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit when he said, "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. Therefore, having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this, which you both see and hear... Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-this Jesus whom you crucified." [Acts 2:32-33,36] The fact that Christ had been received at the right hand of the Father indicated that His work of salvation was now complete. After offering one sacrifice for sin, He sat down because His work for our salvation was finished. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit therefore marked the beginning of the Church and the full ushering in of the New Covenant.
Christ told His disciples that He had many things to tell them but that they could not bear them now. It was only when the Spirit of Truth should come that His disciples would be guided into all truth. [John 16:12-13] Only then could the words of Hebrew 8:13 be true, "When He said, "A new covenant, "He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
Why, in Piece Seven, does Christ caution against annulling even one of the least of these commandments? It would be easy to conclude from a surface reading of Christ's words that He meant for all the commandments of the Law to be both taught and kept. The difficulty with this understanding is that, as we have already seen, the Law in Piece Two refers to the entire Law of Moses. This interpretation would mean that the Old Covenant in its entirety would still be in effect. As has been already noted if this were the case Jesus would not have been qualified to our High Priest because He was not of the tribe of Levi.
The reason for Christ's admonition here was that while the Old Covenant remained in effect it was important that His disciples and followers continue to keep all of it. Just as Christ keep repeating that His hour had not yet come, so likewise the time of the establishing of the New Covenant was not yet. Great damage would have occurred in the unfolding of Christ public ministry if His disciples had prematurely forsaken parts of the Old Covenant that would later be fulfilled in Christ. As an example it was important that repentant sinner continue to offer lamb sacrifices for their sins. The shadow had to continue in full effect until the reality had fully come.
Therefore, since Christ has fulfilled the Law and the Prophets it is clear that believers in the New Covenant are no longer called to keep every jot and tittle of the Mosaic Law. Nevertheless, how are New Covenant believers to relate to the Sabbath commandment? It is striking that the New Testament only uses the concept of shadow and reality twice. In Hebrews 10:1 it speaks of "...the Law as being only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never by the same sacrifices year by year, which they offer continually, make perfect those who draw near." In contrast it states of Christ, "...but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God... For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." [Hebrews 10:12,14] Clearly once Christ made one sacrifice for sins with His own shed blood there was no longer any need to continue to shed the blood of goats and bulls. Reality swept away the shadow.
Likewise in Colossians 2:16-17 Festival, new moon and Sabbaths are declared to be "...a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Again, Christ the reality has swept away the shadow. It would be just as wrong to judge someone who rests totally in Christ for his salvation because he does not keep the external seventh-day as it would be to judge someone who trusts in the blood of Christ to cleanse him from his sins but who does not practice the animal sacrifice that the Law required.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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The Sabbath Day
I Have raed this and if Jesus fulfilled the law then I can steel your car.
I'm not a seventh day adventist thay bilive some things I don't.
I think Jesus fulfilled all the OT laws except the Ten Commandments.
I'm not a seventh day adventist thay bilive some things I don't.
I think Jesus fulfilled all the OT laws except the Ten Commandments.
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Re: The Sabbath Day
OK. Are you consistent with the other elements as well?Gary E. Moreland wrote:I take that vers as Proof that the Colosae church practiced the Sabbath and that Saint Paul tought them to Keep it. and not to let others to talk you out of it
Do you eat Kosher? Do you observe the feast days based upon the lunar calendar? Why would Paul encourage others not to judge them on Sabbath Keeping if he were teaching them otherwise?
Doesn't seem consistent with so much of what Paul wrote otherwise, does it?
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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Re: The Sabbath Day
Where do you find this in Scripture?Gary E. Moreland wrote:I Have raed this and if Jesus fulfilled the law then I can steel your car.
I'm not a seventh day adventist thay bilive some things I don't.
I think Jesus fulfilled all the OT laws except the Ten Commandments.
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender
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The Sabbath Day
If Jesus is our ultimit example we should try to live like Him, and He kept the Sabbath.
Saint Paul is telling them not to let people out side the church to try to keep the church from keeping the Sabbath
Saint Paul is telling them not to let people out side the church to try to keep the church from keeping the Sabbath
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I think it;s just makes sens that if He fulfilled the Ten Commandments then I should beable to steel your car, but we all know I can't
- Canuckster1127
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Re: The Sabbath Day
Jesus kept the law so we could be freed from our keeping it as a basis of our salvation.Gary E. Moreland wrote:If Jesus is our ultimit example we should try to live like Him, and He kept the Sabbath.
Saint Paul is telling them not to let people out side the church to try to keep the church from keeping the Sabbath
If you want to keep the sabbath go ahead. It is your choice to follow as your conscience directs. Good luck if you believe it will earn any special favor from God.
I think you have plenty to look at here for now and it is late, so I'm off to bed.
God Bless.
Bart
Dogmatism is the comfortable intellectual framework of self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is more decadent than the worst sexual sin. ~ Dan Allender