If you're a Catholic, the point of praying is to get them out of purgatory, which is exactly what Catholics always say this verse is saying. Whether or not they rise again is irrelevant to the issue of them benefittingByblos wrote:What is the point of praying unless eventually they will rise again?
Ah, the old argument from silence again.Makes sense to me, but nowhere does it say his prayers will benefit them ONLY then.
No, it says he's praying on account of the resurrection, which happens in the future.He's praying now and he's expecting his prayers will do some good now.
No, the reason why I can't see it is because it says he is praying on account of the resurrection, which happens in the future. There isn't even a hint of an idea that Judas believed in 'immortal souls'.The only reason you can't see that is because your belief system does not allow for the existence of a soul outside the body. I can understand your position from that viewpoint but I do not agree with it.
It's predicatd on what the text says. It says 'on account of the resurrection', so I understand it to mean 'on account of the resurrection', not 'on account of purgatory'.Once again, your conclusion is predicated on your belief system that after death nothing can possibly happen until the resurrection. I do not fault you for reading it the way you do, you have no other choice.
Why would it 'be too late by then'? He is praying to God now, for God to do something in the future. That's what prayer is all about. Where's the complication?But let me ask you this question: If he thought his prayers would not benefit them at the time he said them, if for one second he thought his prayers would not benefit them until he also dies and is resurrected with them, then what is the point of praying for them now? There would be none. Then the question becomes, could he pray for them once everyone is resurrected? The answer is no because it would be too late by then.
I am not reading anything into the text. It says 'on account of the resurrection', so I understand it to mean 'on account of the resurrection', not 'on account of purgatory'.Ergo, you cannot read the text but in the mindset that his prayers would benefit them now, not at the resurrection when it's too late. To read it otherwise would mean that God is accumulating all these prayers in some sort of gigantic warehouse only to whip them out and use them at the final resurrection. Is that what you're suggesting?
I don't see God having to 'accumulate' prayers, I simply see Him acknowledging them and acting on them at the approrpriate time in the future. Which is what He always does with prayers.
So let me get this straight:Fortigurn wrote:And yes, I agree if there was no resurrection the prayers are useless.
Well now you agree with me - if there was no resurrection, the prayers are useless. The Catholic teaching on this passage is that the prayers were for the benefit of souls in purgatory, nothing to do with the resurrection.
I don't know what you're talking about. I never disagreed with this. Like I said, it makes perfect sense that he would pray for them knowing they will be resurrected one day. What would be the point otherwise?
* Do you believe that he was praying for them on account of the resurrection, so that they would be rewarded at that time?
* Do you believe that he was praying for them on account of purgatory, so that they would be released from purgatory earlier?
Which is it? Or do you believe something else?
I'm not confusing anything. I am pointing out that whether or not there is a resurrection actually makes no difference to the concept of souls getting out of purgatory because of prayers.Fortigurn wrote:From the Catholic point of view, even if there was no resurrection, the prayers were far from pointless, they were getting these people's souls out of purgatory before their resurrection.
Wha? Total nonsense. You're confusing the physical resurrection with the treatment of the soul. But then again, given your belief system, it is quite understandable.
Do you believe that people's prayers can help get people out of purgatory or not?
Where does the text say that?Fortigurn wrote:These two sentences contradict each other. Now the question is, do you believe he was praying for them so that they would be released from purgatory? That is the Catholic teaching on this passage.
No contradiction. His prayers are for the benefit of their souls (something you cannot discern outside the body). Their souls will benefit now, their body and soul will benefit at the resurrection.