Convinced yet?

[Kurieuo]

As Rick mentioned earlier re: one of the links, Biden applied pressure to have a prosecuter fired. In Biden's own words:



If the personalities were replaced, and Biden were Trump, Trump Jr were Biden's son... the mainstream media, late night hosts, democrats, robert de nero , paul ryan and other anti-trumpers, and myself and I'm sure RickD -- pretty much everyone but those like Abe -- would consider it evidence undeniable of Trump's corruption vis. using a position of power to benefit Trump Jr.

[DBowling]

As Rick mentioned earlier, Biden applied pressure to have a prosecuter fired. Here, in Biden's own words:

That is true... no one is disputing that...

So let me ask you the same question I asked Rick...

Do you dispute the factual accuracy of any of these three statements?
1. “Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”
2. There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.
3. “The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

Once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

[edwardmurphy]

K, I'm mystified by your apparent decision to disregard the last several pages of discussion and just start over. We know what Biden said. We also know the context in which he said it. It's the context that matters.

Rick, you called me intransigent a bit ago, and sometimes I can be. Right now, though, that's you. When the evidence doesn't support your position it's time to change it.

[RickD]

K, I'm mystified by your apparent decision to disregard the last several pages of discussion and just start over. We know what Biden said. We also know the context in which he said it. It's the context that you're trying to ignore.

Rick, you called me intransigent a bit ago, and sometimes I can be. Right now, though, that's you. When the evidence doesn't support your position it's time to change it.

Sure. I'm uncompromising on the fact that I'm showing that you and DBowling aren't being consistent. I point out when someone is wrong, regardless of which party he belongs to.

I've been known to make a few people mad here, because I've agreed with atheists when they are right, and have called out Christians when they are wrong.

Biden is wrong. And you guys are just sticking your heads in the sand, and blaming Trump.

I'd just like consistency. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.

[edwardmurphy]

Biden is wrong. And you guys are just sticking your heads in the sand, and blaming Trump.

Blaming Trump? Come on, Rick.

If Biden's actions were illegal then why didn't the GOP, who controlled the House at that point, investigate them?

And if Biden was acting independently then how do you explain that the Obama Administration, the EU, and the IMF were all doing the same thing at the same time? Coincidence?

Look, it's possible that Hunter Biden benefitted from his father pressuring the Ukrainian government to fire Shokin, but if he did then either it was a coincidence or Joe Biden somehow orchestrated a massive international conspiracy to protect his kid from an investigation (that nobody can prove ever even happened). Does the latter hypothesis make any sense? Why would Obama structure his Ukraine policy around helping Biden's kid? Why would the EU or the IMF give a damn about the American Vice President's kid's legal issues? Since when does a VP have that kind of juice, especially when his Party has no intention of supporting him in the next presidential election cycle?

Do you know what does make sense? That Trump would try to make a backroom deal with the President of Ukraine to gain an advantage against his likely opponent in the 2020 election. And what's more, the evidence supports it.

And where am I being inconsistent? If there was evidence that Biden committed a crime then that would be one thing, but there isn't. Sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong, and when that's the case it's not appropriate to pretend otherwise in the name of consistency.

[DBowling]

K, I'm mystified by your apparent decision to disregard the last several pages of discussion and just start over. We know what Biden said. We also know the context in which he said it. It's the context that you're trying to ignore.

Rick, you called me intransigent a bit ago, and sometimes I can be. Right now, though, that's you. When the evidence doesn't support your position it's time to change it.

Sure. I'm uncompromising on the fact that I'm showing that you and DBowling aren't being consistent.

You have shown nothing... you have made a number of fact free posts and assertions...

Once again...
Do you have any evidence that shows that any of the three statements below are wrong?
1. “Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”
2. There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.
3. “The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

Provide some actual evidence that I am wrong.

I'd just like consistency.

Then demonstrate that you are consistent...
Provide evidence not platitudes

Right is right, and wrong is wrong.

And that is my biggest issue with Trump.
Lies are wrong... period...
Whether the Democrats are smearing Kavanaugh with lies.
or whether Trump is smearing Biden with lies.
Lies are wrong!!!!!

[Philip]

DB: And that is my biggest issue with Trump.
Lies are wrong... period...
Whether the Democrats are smearing Kavanaugh with lies.
or whether Trump is smearing Biden with lies.
Lies are wrong!!!!!

Yep, lies are wrong. And Trump doesn't have clean hands in many things. However, one side, per my conservative values, that if it were to take over, would be a horrible thing. So, be careful for what you wish for. If we could easily replace those of harmful intent, values and sensibilities with those of much better, I'd be all for it - and across the aisle. But there is currently a very dangerous side that is radically out of sync with those across the heartland of America, that I think would ruin it, if give majority powers. And so many supporting Trump right now feel they, unfortunately, don't currently have a better option. Believe me, the other side that absolutely hates Pence (and any other conservatives of a far greater sense of civility and commons sense) just about as bad. And if Pence replaces Trump, they'll demonize him just as quickly. Problem is, Trump is an exceptionally polarizing figure - although he has been bold in many areas which that is needed. We'll just have to see how this all plays out, while remembering, God is in control!

[DBowling]

Yep, lies are wrong. And Trump doesn't have clean hands in many things. However, one side, per my conservative values, that if it were to take over, would be a horrible thing. So, be careful for what you wish for. If we could easily replace those of harmful intent, values and sensibilities with those of much better, I'd be all for it - and across the aisle. But there is currently a very dangerous side that is radically out of sync with those across the heartland of America, that I think would ruin it, if give majority powers. And so many supporting Trump right now feel they, unfortunately, don't currently have a better option. Believe me, the other side that absolutely hates Pence (and any other conservatives of a far greater sense of civility and commons sense) just about as bad. And if Pence replaces Trump, they'll demonize him just as quickly. Problem is, Trump is an exceptionally polarizing figure - although he has been bold in many areas which that is needed. We'll just have to see how this all plays out, while remembering, God is in control!

As I already said above somewhere in the thread above...
I fully expect the House to impeach Trump.
And I do not expect the Senate to remove him from office.
So it will be (and IMHO should be) up to the American voters to remove Trump from office in 2020.

However, I do think it is important for Trump to face some consequences for his corrupt behavior.
Even if he is not removed from office by the Senate, impeachment will be a permanent stain on his record and a reminder to future Presidents that the President of the US is not above the Law.

If the GOP decides to choose a corrupt criminal as their candidate for President, then as painful as it might be at the time IMHO the GOP deserves to reap what they sow in 2020.

[Philip]

DB, name the best three or so presidents we've ever had - and I can guarantee you they all did some bad stuff. But as Trump is very personally offensive to the sensibilities of many, they hate him far worse, for the same kinds of things they don't get all worked up over other politicians. But he is up against some really bad people, which brings out the NY streetfighter in him. Yes, there is a time to greatly criticize him - but not to the point of helping bring him down, certainly not given the alternatives of what that could mean for us. But a lot of people tend to think far more emotionally in such matters.

Sometime a man best currently equipped with power and up to standing up and getting certain things done isn't a likeable, always-decent fellow. Who freed the Jews from their Babylonian captivity, allowed them to rebuild their destroyed temple? Did God use an honest man of great virtue and peaceful intentions? Was that man not widely detested and hated, as he had done a lot of terrible stuff? Would Israel not have desired someone far different?

[abelcainsbrother]

As Rick mentioned earlier, Biden applied pressure to have a prosecuter fired. Here, in Biden's own words:

That is true... no one is disputing that...

So let me ask you the same question I asked Rick...

Do you dispute the factual accuracy of any of these three statements?
1. “Obama administration policy (not just ‘Biden policy’) to push for this Ukrainian general prosecutor to go” was “a shared view in many capitals, multilateral lending institutions, and pro-democratic Ukrainian civil society.”
2. There is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation.
3. “The then-vice president issued his demands for greater anti-corruption measures by the Ukrainian government despite the possibility that those demands would actually increase – not lessen — the chances that Hunter Biden and Burisma would face legal trouble in Ukraine.”

Once the factual accuracy of the above three statements is established, then the lies and misinformation of the Trump narrative become apparent.

So what you and the MSM are claiming is that Biden was lying when he admitted he extorted Ukraine on video?You are just making Joe Biden out to be a liar,is all.You're not hurting Trump defending Biden while moving the goal posts from the fact that Trump was accused of extorting Ukraine in the phone call,which we know is a lie.So you and the MSM are now moving the goal posts while trying to make Joe Biden out to be a liar. It does not help for you to support and defend a liar.

[abelcainsbrother]

DB: And that is my biggest issue with Trump.
Lies are wrong... period...
Whether the Democrats are smearing Kavanaugh with lies.
or whether Trump is smearing Biden with lies.
Lies are wrong!!!!!

Yep, lies are wrong. And Trump doesn't have clean hands in many things. However, one side, per my conservative values, that if it were to take over, would be a horrible thing. So, be careful for what you wish for. If we could easily replace those of harmful intent, values and sensibilities with those of much better, I'd be all for it - and across the aisle. But there is currently a very dangerous side that is radically out of sync with those across the heartland of America, that I think would ruin it, if give majority powers. And so many supporting Trump right now feel they, unfortunately, don't currently have a better option. Believe me, the other side that absolutely hates Pence (and any other conservatives of a far greater sense of civility and commons sense) just about as bad. And if Pence replaces Trump, they'll demonize him just as quickly. Problem is, Trump is an exceptionally polarizing figure - although he has been bold in many areas which that is needed. We'll just have to see how this all plays out, while remembering, God is in control!

Why are you a conservative if you think conservatism would be bad for the country? I think that you do not understand the goal of Trump supporters because if you did,you would be just as enthused for the future as I am.Because there is nothing about Trump or his supporters and what our objective is that should cause you concern as it is all about giving the power back to the people as laid out in the Constitution.For too long we have got away from the Constitution and the goal of Q and Trump and his followers is to remove the corruption in our government and return the power back to the people.Our future is brighter once we defeat the matrix which is the establishment that has controlled both parties to the detriment of the American people and our society .

throughout history when history is being made there are some who just don't get it,until they see the results. I think you think that this is just another 4 year election and after Trump everything will get back to Democrat good,Republican bad or the status-quo,but this is not it. This is a historical time to be living in a true political revolution we have all prayed for.Sometimes the one who God sends to carry out his will is not who we think he should use,but God is in control and he is answering the prayers of us who have been praying for years for change,it is coming and for the better.

[abelcainsbrother]

Some of you need to watch the movie The Matrix and when you do see Trump and the Q team as Nero.

[abelcainsbrother]

That's like the 4th time Abe has linked the general definition of treason. We're American, Abe! It's this one:

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

I wonder how the President figures that paraphrasing a phone call fits the definition of treason. Actually, scratch that. I'm confident that the President has no idea what treason is.

So you think knowingly lying in order to overthrow the government is not treason? Yeah,you think Trump and we are just throwing out names like you liberals do like racist,homophobe,sexist,bigot,etc but we do not have to call names,we have the truth and facts on our side and we deal with the truth.And it is against federal law to do what Adam Schiff has done and it is treason.Did Republicans lie when they impeached President Clinton for pergury? No,he did commit pergury,yet here they are trying to impeach or overthrow the government based on a lie. Bill Clinton's law license was suspended and he was barred from practicing law because it was based on truth.It was not based on lies like this is,so,no it was not treason,but it was a bad political move to impeach Bill Clinton over it.

[edwardmurphy]

DB, name the best three or so presidents we've ever had - and I can guarantee you they all did some bad stuff.

Look, I don't pretend to understand the mental gymnastics that you guys go through to turn voting for a dimwitted criminal into your only option, but I can tell you that the rest of us are running out of patience with it.

[abelcainsbrother]

DB, name the best three or so presidents we've ever had - and I can guarantee you they all did some bad stuff.

Look, I don't pretend to understand the mental gymnastics that you guys go through to turn voting for a dimwitted criminal into your only option, but I can tell you that the rest of us are running out of patience with it.

The problem you guys have is nobody who is informed will believe anything you say when it comes to Trump or politics,even if it was actually true.Ya'll have no credibility and you are projecting.Just based on lying for two years claiming you have evidence Trump colluded with Russia,and that the Mueller investigation would confirm it and lead to impeachment,then when that did not work like was said for over two years,then you moved the goal posts to Trump obstructed justice and the Mueller report confirms it,we need to call Mueller into Congress,we are going to impeach him!backfired.Then it is Trump extorted Ukraine in the phone call and we are going to impeach him. Yeah,right! Nobody believes you,not even Democrats. This is just these lies,not counting all of the others.Credibility matters,something ya'll ignore in the Trump Derangement Syndrome.Three strikes and you're OUT!