So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

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abelcainsbrother
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#106

Post by abelcainsbrother » Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am

edwardmurphy wrote:
Fri May 17, 2019 2:49 pm
BTW, when you guys tell me that I'm wrong I'd appreciate it if you'd try to attach your specific arguments to specific things I said, rather than quoting the whole mess.

It's just a request, B.W. Relax.
I noticed that you seem to have a problem with differences and different interpretations when it comes to the bible and religion. Just so you know you cannot single out Christianity or religion because of differences as it is normal for any group in the world to have differences even in atheism.So you cannot get away from having differences amongst any group in the world even if you're an atheist there are differences in the atheist group. So don't single out Christianity or religion because there are differences. Now from a Christian perspective it does not matter what certian Christians say or if they are pro-choice or not, it will only matter if they were following the word of God or not.Plenty of people who claim to be Christian are not always following God's word for whatever reason.Abortion is murder not only from a biblical perspective but also amongst societies in general,those who are pro-choice just ignore this fact.You don't have to read the bible to know abortion is murder you just have to have a conscience.

I would be pro-life even if I was not a Christian and even if I was an atheist just from the basis of a lack of personal responsibility amongst people in our society and them using murder as a way out of personal responsibility.As 98% of all abortions in America have been done due to a lack of personal responsibility.I'm against it whole heartedly as it is very important to the fabric of society for people to take personal responsibility for the actions they chose.It hurts a society when and if people in society don't take personal responsibility for their actions.I blame liberalism for the lack of personal responsibility in our society because they are too tolerant of criminals in our society and do not want to punish people who commit crimes which leads to a lack of freedom and liberty for society as a whole.We cannot even spank our kids now because of liberalism so they don't want kids to grow up to have morals.Freedom is not to have the freedom to do anything you want to do that harms society but is the opportunity you've been given to do what is right and good for society as a whole to have freedom and liberty.Liberals don't seem to understand this.We now have less freedom and liberty in America doing things the liberal way.Don't let your kids go outside to play because it is just too dangerous to do today,instead let them stay inside and play video games instead because it is just too dangerous.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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edwardmurphy
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#107

Post by edwardmurphy » Sun May 19, 2019 9:34 pm

abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
I noticed that you seem to have a problem with differences and different interpretations when it comes to the bible and religion. Just so you know you cannot single out Christianity or religion because of differences as it is normal for any group in the world to have differences even in atheism.
I'm not talking about people, Abe, I'm talking about dogma. I'm talking about different people reading precisely the same words and coming to a variety of conclusions about what those words mean. That's fine, right up until one group decides that they're right and everybody else is wrong - which is what inevitably happens.
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
So you cannot get away from having differences amongst any group in the world even if you're an atheist there are differences in the atheist group.
The only thing that atheists necessarily have in common is a lack of belief in gods. We're not really even a group. So yeah, we're diverse. It's not a problem.
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
So don't single out Christianity or religion because there are differences. Now from a Christian perspective it does not matter what certian Christians say or if they are pro-choice or not, it will only matter if they were following the word of God or not.Plenty of people who claim to be Christian are not always following God's word for whatever reason.Abortion is murder not only from a biblical perspective but also amongst societies in general,those who are pro-choice just ignore this fact.You don't have to read the bible to know abortion is murder you just have to have a conscience.
You say that abortion is murder based, I assume, on the Bible. This lady says that there's Biblical support for the pro-choice position.

Conservative Christians tend to argue that life begins at conception. This lady says that there's not really any religious or scientific consensus on when life begins.

Your opinion may be strongly held, but it's just your opinion - just one of many. Your interpretation of scripture may be sincerely believed, but it's just your interpretation - just one of many. Who re you to try and force me to live my life based on your opinions?
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
You don't have to read the bible to know abortion is murder you just have to have a conscience.
You're often complaining that I insult you and holding yourself up as virtuous because you rarely call me names. I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that calling somebody a name isn't the only way to be insulting. This statement is extremely insulting, and not just to me. Anyone who doesn't share your opinion has no conscience? Please...
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
I would be pro-life even if I was not a Christian and even if I was an atheist just from the basis of a lack of personal responsibility amongst people in our society and them using murder as a way out of personal responsibility.
Again, this is just your opinion. In your opinion it's murder. In your opinion the woman is trying to shirk responsibility.

In my opinion a fetus isn't a person, at least until it has a brain and nervous system, or perhaps until viability. Even then, if the pregnancy is the result of a rape, or if there's a severe fetal deformity or the mother's well being is at risk I think the woman and her doctor should be the ones deciding how to proceed. I don't think that decision should be yours to make. It has nothing to do with you. It's not your concern.

In my opinion sometimes aborting a pregnancy is unquestionably the responsible thing to do.

Also, let's be honest about what you're saying. What you want the woman to take responsibility for is the sin of fornication. Her behavior failed to meet your moral standards, and now she has to bear the burden of her wicked ways. This isn't about life. If it was you'd support programs to help her raise the child you want to force her to have. But you don't, do you? No, this is about punishment. You did the crime, now do the time.
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
I blame liberalism for the lack of personal responsibility in our society because they are too tolerant of criminals in our society and do not want to punish people who commit crimes which leads to a lack of freedom and liberty for society as a whole.
And I credit liberalism for being the driving factor behind every positive change in the history of our country. I credit conservatism for pumping the brakes when liberals got ahead of themselves. There was once a time when liberals helped America to embrace change while conservatives helped us remember our roots. Unfortunately conservatism was pushed aside by authoritarian populism, propelled by frightened stooges looking for a strongman to protect them.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#108

Post by Philip » Mon May 20, 2019 5:40 pm

Ed: In other words, the idea that life begins at conception is the preferred interpretation of some Christians, but the Bible doesn't actually say one way or the other. Therefore anyone who states that life begins at conception is stating their own opinion, not the word of God.
You are WRONG!

"For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and that my soul knows well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them." (Psalm 139:13-16, NKJV).

This tells us that the person we become was planned by God and that our allotted days on earth were known and planned even before our births. And that fetus that was growing in your mom's womb, Ed, wasn't just some glob of tissues - it was YOU! Little Eddie as just as much you as you were on the day of your birth, your 16th birthday, and Ed the man. Scripture says we were created by God - "wonderfully made." NO one has the moral right to kill what God was creating in our mother's womb!

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19, KJV).

We are to choose life, even for our "seed" - a seed God says he wants to "LIVE!"

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#109

Post by abelcainsbrother » Mon May 20, 2019 6:58 pm

edwardmurphy wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:34 pm
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
I noticed that you seem to have a problem with differences and different interpretations when it comes to the bible and religion. Just so you know you cannot single out Christianity or religion because of differences as it is normal for any group in the world to have differences even in atheism.
I'm not talking about people, Abe, I'm talking about dogma. I'm talking about different people reading precisely the same words and coming to a variety of conclusions about what those words mean. That's fine, right up until one group decides that they're right and everybody else is wrong - which is what inevitably happens.
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
So you cannot get away from having differences amongst any group in the world even if you're an atheist there are differences in the atheist group.
The only thing that atheists necessarily have in common is a lack of belief in gods. We're not really even a group. So yeah, we're diverse. It's not a problem.
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
So don't single out Christianity or religion because there are differences. Now from a Christian perspective it does not matter what certian Christians say or if they are pro-choice or not, it will only matter if they were following the word of God or not.Plenty of people who claim to be Christian are not always following God's word for whatever reason.Abortion is murder not only from a biblical perspective but also amongst societies in general,those who are pro-choice just ignore this fact.You don't have to read the bible to know abortion is murder you just have to have a conscience.
You say that abortion is murder based, I assume, on the Bible. This lady says that there's Biblical support for the pro-choice position.

Conservative Christians tend to argue that life begins at conception. This lady says that there's not really any religious or scientific consensus on when life begins.

Your opinion may be strongly held, but it's just your opinion - just one of many. Your interpretation of scripture may be sincerely believed, but it's just your interpretation - just one of many. Who re you to try and force me to live my life based on your opinions?
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
You don't have to read the bible to know abortion is murder you just have to have a conscience.
You're often complaining that I insult you and holding yourself up as virtuous because you rarely call me names. I'd like to take this opportunity to point out that calling somebody a name isn't the only way to be insulting. This statement is extremely insulting, and not just to me. Anyone who doesn't share your opinion has no conscience? Please...
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
I would be pro-life even if I was not a Christian and even if I was an atheist just from the basis of a lack of personal responsibility amongst people in our society and them using murder as a way out of personal responsibility.
Again, this is just your opinion. In your opinion it's murder. In your opinion the woman is trying to shirk responsibility.

In my opinion a fetus isn't a person, at least until it has a brain and nervous system, or perhaps until viability. Even then, if the pregnancy is the result of a rape, or if there's a severe fetal deformity or the mother's well being is at risk I think the woman and her doctor should be the ones deciding how to proceed. I don't think that decision should be yours to make. It has nothing to do with you. It's not your concern.

In my opinion sometimes aborting a pregnancy is unquestionably the responsible thing to do.

Also, let's be honest about what you're saying. What you want the woman to take responsibility for is the sin of fornication. Her behavior failed to meet your moral standards, and now she has to bear the burden of her wicked ways. This isn't about life. If it was you'd support programs to help her raise the child you want to force her to have. But you don't, do you? No, this is about punishment. You did the crime, now do the time.
abelcainsbrother wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 9:46 am
I blame liberalism for the lack of personal responsibility in our society because they are too tolerant of criminals in our society and do not want to punish people who commit crimes which leads to a lack of freedom and liberty for society as a whole.
And I credit liberalism for being the driving factor behind every positive change in the history of our country. I credit conservatism for pumping the brakes when liberals got ahead of themselves. There was once a time when liberals helped America to embrace change while conservatives helped us remember our roots. Unfortunately conservatism was pushed aside by authoritarian populism, propelled by frightened stooges looking for a strongman to protect them.
There are atheists that are on the right Ed despite atheism dogma.I already covered differences in every group in the world so I won't rehash it.You should want people to take personal responsibility for their actions,but it is clear that you don't.And this is a big problem with liberalism.I've never insulted you,not have ever been rude to you,etc.I've even defended you at times when it seemed the mods were upset with you. This is because there is no need for insults when I have the truth and facts on my side. Me telling you the truth is hurtful,which is why you've ignored me, I've never ignored you as I can handle you easily with the truth and facts that I bring. You just ignore it and have many times. But I keep on remoinding you og how things you said were wrong and how things I said were and are correct because I'm going to show you that I'm a lot more right than you are and that you are the one who gets things wrong.Time is all we need. You believed Trump was going to be impeached and removed from office,and you believed the Russians hacked the DNC e-mails and only Russia interferes in our elections,yet you are so misinformed on the facts that you are propagandized and like to be.You're going to be proven wrong just like Trump being removed from office because of the Mueller investigation,or Hillary will win and Trump won't win.I told you the Mueller report would come out and show no collusion with Russia and I was correct.You were wrong in your thinking about Russia collusion as I said.

Liberalism has been a failure and not only for America but populism and nationalism and the rejection of liberalism is spreading globally.Not just the US.The world is rejecting liberalism and globalism.You liberals have had decades of power where you got everything you wanted politically no matter which party was in power,you liberals always found a way to win,in the end.But the American people have awoken to the game played on us and this is the REAL political revolution people have dreamed of happening with Trump.Ya'll ignored the Tea Party and the Tea Party was back stabbed but it is not going to happen this time as we have learned from all of that and we will succeed this time and both old out dated political parties will be left in the dust.There is a new political party coming as we are just now getting started draining the swamp,which is not easy,but we will succeed with or without your help/ But we will NEVER go back to that Democrat vs Republican political game played on us for decades.NO MORE!

We're not gonna take it. For you.
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Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#110

Post by edwardmurphy » Mon May 20, 2019 8:11 pm

Philip wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:40 pm
You are WRONG!

"For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother’s womb. I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; marvelous are Your works and that my soul knows well. My frame was not hidden from You, when I was made in secret, and skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed, and in Your book they all were written, the days fashioned for me, when as yet there were none of them." (Psalm 139:13-16, NKJV).

This tells us that the person we become was planned by God and that our allotted days on earth were known and planned even before our births. And that fetus that was growing in your mom's womb, Ed, wasn't just some glob of tissues - it was YOU! Little Eddie as just as much you as you were on the day of your birth, your 16th birthday, and Ed the man. Scripture says we were created by God - "wonderfully made." NO one has the moral right to kill what God was creating in our mother's womb!
I have a few thoughts. Here they are, in no particular order...

Why are we accepting that David had such depth of knowledge of how God did his thing? And why did David think he was "skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"? That's not how it works. It kinda seems like you're accepting the stuff that fits your argument and ignoring the stuff that makes no sense at all.

How do we know that David's experience is universal, as opposed to a David-specific one? He was kinda special, no?

If it's correct that God has a divine plan then it logically follows that whatever happens is his plan. If God's plan is for Sally to have a baby then surely she can't just ignore the Almighty and have an abortion. If God's plan is for Sally not to have a baby then what difference does it make if the blastocyte fails to implant or the fetus is aborted in a clinic? It kinda seems like there's only a plan when having a plan is convenient, and when having a plan becomes detrimental suddenly it's all free will.

And speaking of blastocytes, the inescapable fact is that if life begins at conception and 50%+ of blastocytes fail to implant or are spontaneously aborted then the fact is that God deliberately kills off half of all babies conceived. What's that about?

Also, if God breathed life into Adam - implying that life begins with the first breath - then why are you disregarding that piece of scripture in favor of Psalm 139?

And what about Exodus 21:22-23, where causing a miscarriage is a far less serious crime than causing the death of the mother? If life begins at conception then that miscarriage is a murder, so why isn't it being treated as one?

And speaking of Exodus, what about Exodus 22:25? God flat out says not to charge interest on loans to the needy, yet we have a thriving industry devoted to bleeding the needy white by charging them extortionate interest. Why is this not of major concern to Christians? Where are the marches, pickets, and lobbyists? It kinda seems like the OT only counts when it's convenient, jots and tittles be damned.

Or the blood thing. If murder is shedding blood and a fertilized egg has no blood then aborting a fertilized egg is not murder. When you kill a person that's definitely murder, so the inverse applies as well. Also, the blood thing conflicts with the breath thing and also with Psalm 139, or at least the psalm renders them moot.

I'll add additional objections as they come to me. They are legion.
Philip wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:40 pm
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19, KJV).
Hang on there...
The Offer of Life or Death

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
"Choosing life" is loving and obeying God. "Choosing death" is turning to other gods. Nothing there has anything to do with abortion. That's a flagrant cherry pick, context be damned. If context doesn't matter than I have no idea how to proceed...

I'm not trying to tinkle in your Cheerios here, but I don't think that your methodology makes any sense. It seems like you're trying to make the Bible say something that it just doesn't say (or maybe that it says once and contradicts on a number of other occasions). You're entitled to your beliefs, but trying to force the rest of us to comply with them is wrong. Your own scripture doesn't offer much support for your position, and even if it did this is a Church issue, not a State one.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#111

Post by Philip » Tue May 21, 2019 11:07 am

Ed: Why are we accepting that David had such depth of knowledge of how God did his thing? And why did David think he was "skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth"? That's not how it works. It kinda seems like you're accepting the stuff that fits your argument and ignoring the stuff that makes no sense at all.
First place, Ed, you are correct, in that, while Scripture can have specific meanings for a specific point in time, in in specific context, there are other Scriptures that are for all people of all times. Now, David's writings in Psalms are considered Scripture and are included in the Old Testament canon of writings, and by Jesus' day, that canon had long been completed. And the Old Testament is also referred to as "The Law and the Prophets." And Jesus confirmed those writings (the entirety of the OT) to be Scripture!

Jesus on Scripture:

He referenced the Law and Prophets as a unit, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).

He explained the Scriptures, "Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures," (NASB, Luke 24:27).

He referred to the entire OT Canon by grouping all the prophets in a collective time bracket: from Abel (from Genesis, the first book, and first martyr) to Zechariah (Chronicles, the last book, and the last martyr): "34 Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35 so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,[f] whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. (Matthew 23:35).

And ALL of Scripture is God-inspired and considered factually true:

"15 ... and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 ALL Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Timothy 3:15-17)

“You must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” (2 Peter 1:20, 21)

And the term "prophecy," in Scripture, is not limited to foretelling of future events - more on the range of meanings here:
Ed: If it's correct that God has a divine plan then it logically follows that whatever happens is his plan. If God's plan is for Sally to have a baby then surely she can't just ignore the Almighty and have an abortion. If God's plan is for Sally not to have a baby then what difference does it make if the blastocyte fails to implant or the fetus is aborted in a clinic? It kinda seems like there's only a plan when having a plan is convenient, and when having a plan becomes detrimental suddenly it's all free will.
God determines outcomes, but He does not cause anyone to sin. Abortion is sin. And, for a period, until Christ returns, God allows sin. And only one saved and forgiven of his sins will be saved. But God does not tell me what color of socks to wear or impeded my free will decisions (freely made). Our sin and our evil motives and actions do not limit outcomes God so desires and ultimately determines. In fact, He sometimes uses sinful people to bring about outcomes He desires - but not necessarily the ones they thought their actions would achieve. Only extreme Calvinists believe God determines every decision and action by man - but that is an unBiblical belief. BTW, there is good Biblical evidence that aborted children are instantly in the arms of God.
Ed: And speaking of blastocytes, the inescapable fact is that if life begins at conception and 50%+ of blastocytes fail to implant or are spontaneously aborted then the fact is that God deliberately kills off half of all babies conceived. What's that about?
We do not always know God's greater purposes. Sometimes, what we think is bad, is immediately and eternally glorious. But again, there is good Scriptural support that babies that die - whether immediately after conception or otherwise, go to be with the Lord. So your "kills off," while designed to load the question, could also be used to question why does anyone dies in old age. Or as a child. Why are there birth defects? Etc. One thing is, we have the limited earthly view of death, and God has the eternal one. And we aren't wise enough to always understand God's decisions or purposes. The only ones who don't eternally live in the presence of the Lord after death are those who knowingly reject God.
Ed: Also, if God breathed life into Adam - implying that life begins with the first breath - then why are you disregarding that piece of scripture in favor of Psalm 139?
Adam was never a baby; never had a mother. Bad analogy.

This is getting long - next post.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#112

Post by Philip » Tue May 21, 2019 12:00 pm

Ed: And what about Exodus 21:22-23, where causing a miscarriage is a far less serious crime than causing the death of the mother? If life begins at conception then that miscarriage is a murder, so why isn't it being treated as one?
You have misunderstood this passage:

22 “When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 But if there IS harm,[a] then you shall pay life for life,

The death of a child foolishly caused, the perpetrator was to pay with his life. As a matter of fact, this is an anti-abortion point - that God considers the killing of an unborn child so seriously, that during OT times, causing such mandated capital punishment.
Ed: And speaking of Exodus, what about Exodus 22:25? God flat out says not to charge interest on loans to the needy, yet we have a thriving industry devoted to bleeding the needy white by charging them extortionate interest. Why is this not of major concern to Christians? Where are the marches, pickets, and lobbyists? It kinda seems like the OT only counts when it's convenient, jots and tittles be damned.
Such is clearly wrong. And people should be much more upset about such. But we don't live in a theocracy - or a dictatorship. We have courts and politicians that allow the perpetrating of such. Christians are not responsible for every immoral issue - we can only vote, bring pressure, etc. When was the last time you were out protesting against greedy banks? That doesn't make them right - it doesn't mean you don't care. Look, you are all over the map here, but I could make a huge list of stuff we should all get a lot more concerned about. But I don't necessarily know what I can personally do about it. As long as this is a sin-filled, broken world, there will always be wrong, heartbreaking things that we should strive to change, even if we individually feel powerless to do so. But HOW - that's always the dilemma.
Ed: Or the blood thing. If murder is shedding blood and a fertilized egg has no blood then aborting a fertilized egg is not murder. When you kill a person that's definitely murder, so the inverse applies as well. Also, the blood thing conflicts with the breath thing and also with Psalm 139, or at least the psalm renders them moot.
God tells us to choose life. He tells us men are made in His Image and that only He has the right to take it. THIS is why taking a human life unnecessarily is wrong. Note, it is not wrong to kill animals, Scripturally speaking. So technicalities over when blood appears, etc., these are not what makes murder wrong - or at what point it is wrong. Fact is, the God of the Bible hates our culture of death - and people killing their unborn children is tragically sad. I first witnessed this as I sat in an abortion clinic with my friend as she was having her child aborted - though, at the time (about '75), I didn't understand the tragedy of it.
Ed: "Choosing life" is loving and obeying God. "Choosing death" is turning to other gods. Nothing there has anything to do with abortion. That's a flagrant cherry pick, context be damned. If context doesn't matter than I have no idea how to proceed...
No it is not a specific reference to abortion - but the horror of abortion's outcome is entirely relevant to the passage's point that, obeying the commands of God are tied to receiving His blessings are in contrast to what disregarding His instructions and disobedience bring: death, brokenness, dispair. And so how we view God as the only giver and rightful taker of life DOES impact the life of the unborn - and note before verse 19:

"15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. 16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God[a] that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you."

So, obeying God's directives, INCLUDES the impact of choosing God - who is the giver of life - IS likewise choosing life for our unborn, as well as everyone else. And Psalm 139 certainly indicates this in his God-inspired writings, per David, that Jesus includes in His determination that His OT (of His day) of what are the God-inspired Scriptures.

Ed, seems like you are melting down selectively against Christians and their beliefs - I detect a lot of anger at people determined to protect innocent, unborn life, per your trying to go through a laundry list of of hypocrisy that upsets you. Every year, I give to Christian missions designed to help poor people in their circumstances. As do vast millions of Christians. So, your implication that Christians don't care about the people that are already here, as opposed to just the unborn - it's just not the reality I see of people who truly are trying to follow Christ - that is, as opposed to people who just reference themselves as "Christians" - which is an irrelevant term for many. And just because a person is a Christian, it doesn't mean they'll be perfect or shouldn't be doing more (as we ALL should!) and even if it did, this is a Church issue, not a state one.

Many Christians and almost ALL non-Christians do not understand how to appropriately interpret the Bible per it's OWN demonstrated proper practices and examples of how to. So, Ed, you'll have many misconceptions. There are sometimes layers of meanings, sometimes place and time specific, some just to ancient Israel in a specific time, somethings that are universally true for all times. But there are rules per Scripture - and people who "make up the rules as it suits them" - well, they'll easily stumble into very bad beliefs and practices.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#113

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 24, 2019 8:51 am

According to the modern medical establishment between 40% and 60% of blastocytes (aka fertilized eggs) fail to implant and are discharged. If your contention is correct then a blastocyte is a human being. That means that half of all humans are created, endowed with spirits, ejected with the rest of the feminine discharge, tossed in the hamper, and washed away on laundry day.

Somehow that doesn't seem right, but that's where the evidence leads me
.

No one said anything about a human being, what I said is that LIFE begins at conception and that is a fact.
No life, no pregnancy, correct?

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#114

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 24, 2019 8:56 am

Ed, while I appreciate your attempt at discussing scripture, I am curious as to what end since I doubt that scripture will convince YOU.
Correct?

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#115

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri May 24, 2019 9:00 am

You say that abortion is murder based, I assume, on the Bible. This lady says that there's Biblical support for the pro-choice positio
n.

She would be wrong,pr course, since the bible is EXPLICIT in it's condemnation of the unjustified/unlawful taking of life:
Thou Shall NOT Murder.

Explicit doctrine trumps implicit interpretation all the time, unless, of course, superseded by another EXPLICIT statement by God ) dietary restrictions for example).

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#116

Post by edwardmurphy » Fri May 24, 2019 12:57 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:00 am
You say that abortion is murder based, I assume, on the Bible. This lady says that there's Biblical support for the pro-choice position.
She would be wrong, of course, since the bible is EXPLICIT in it's condemnation of the unjustified/unlawful taking of life:

Thou Shall NOT Murder.

Explicit doctrine trumps implicit interpretation all the time, unless, of course, superseded by another EXPLICIT statement by God ) dietary restrictions for example).
Hang on there...

You seem to have just stated that the "life" that begins at conception is not a human being:
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:51 am
No one said anything about a human being, what I said is that LIFE begins at conception and that is a fact.

No life, no pregnancy, correct?
So sure, no life no pregnancy, but also no human no murder.
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 8:56 am
Ed, while I appreciate your attempt at discussing scripture, I am curious as to what end since I doubt that scripture will convince YOU.

Correct?
Absolutely correct. Truth be told, I'm not really sure why I'm debating scripture, although it's been an interesting conversation. I wish we could all get together for a beer. I bet that'd be fun (in the boring old guy sense of the word).

I think the main point I've been reaching for is that you guys have your interpretations of scripture, but so do other people. Sometimes it seems like people here are hovering right on the edge of flat out saying that liberal and moderate Christians aren't Christians at all, but don't quite feel comfortable going there. Still, phrases like "Bible believing Christian" are awfully similar to "true Christian," and labeling yourself a "true Christian" implicitly labels those who disagree with you as fake Christians. I have a problem with that. It's a mindset that leads to pushy, overzealous activists trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us.

When I was a kid nobody started a sentence with "as a Christian." People recognized that Christianity was a big tent, rather than a monolithic entity, and they described themselves as members of their denomination. I liked that a lot better than the approach so many (overwhelmingly conservative) Christians take today. Anybody who prefaces their views with "as a Christian" is trying to present their beliefs as the beliefs of all Christians, rather than as those of a member of a specific denomination, or even just an individual. That's pushy, arrogant, and factually inaccurate.

Anyway, I'm not really sure where I'm going with all of this, and I'm content to let the matter drop if anyone is taking offense.
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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#117

Post by Philip » Fri May 24, 2019 1:35 pm

Ed: I think the main point I've been reaching for is that you guys have your interpretations of scripture, but so do other people. Sometimes it seems like people here are hovering right on the edge of flat out saying that liberal and moderate Christians aren't Christians at all, but don't quite feel comfortable going there. Still, phrases like "Bible believing Christian" are awfully similar to "true Christian," and labeling yourself a "true Christian" implicitly labels those who disagree with you as fake Christians. I have a problem with that. It's a mindset that leads to pushy, overzealous activists trying to force their beliefs on the rest of us.
Ed, I applaud you questions about Scripture. There IS a big tent of true Christians who have a variety of political beliefs - and even a range of theological ones. But while all true Christians have one thing in common (a true faith and commitment to Christ), they don't often have the same understandings or Scripturally based beliefs.

The ONLY requirements God has for one to become saved / receive eternal life / become a Spirit-filled Christian is, they believe the central Gospel message and history (that Christ came, is the Son of God, died for the sins of ALL, was Resurrected), have acknowledged to God that they are a sinner and have submitted and committed themselves to Him and His authority and desire to be forgiven and for Him to be their Lord. Said simply, they have placed their trust in the Jesus of history and have committed themself and desire to following and obeying Him, as best they can. But many Christians have all kinds of issues, wrong beliefs, are sometimes hypocrites - just like every other human. But Christians truly trying to follow Jesus tend to overcome their deficits to the degree they truly submit to and sincerely try to obey Christ. And all Christians, to varying levels, struggle in these things - we're like any other man or woman, we're imperfect, broken and have issues. And the best Christians amongst us understand this. I meet unbelievers all the time that seem to be nicer or more enjoyable to know that some Christians are. So, what's the difference, in a Christian vs. a non-Christian? Christians are saved! They have faith in Christ / God's Spirit lives within them. Period! And they can't and didn't earn their salvation - it's all FREELY RECEIVED by simple faith and commitment in and to Christ. Nevertheless, unfortunately, MANY Christians still have a lot of misunderstandings about God and Scripture that drive their wrongful beliefs (on some issues) and practices.

However, I find that many who have very extreme views and those that dismiss or disregard certain key Scriptures - usually because such Scriptures don't support or they refute some aspect of their beliefs - they're often either not very Scripturally knowledgeable or they cherry pick what they like and disregard or easily dismiss many other RELEVANT Scriptures that they don't like or understand. Sometimes, for such people, I wonder whether they are truly committed / submitted to Christ at all? But Scripture has structure, criteria, and extensive relevant comparisons that reveal proper interpretation approaches, beliefs, and practices - and to the point that people with extreme and questionable views can't simply - or certainly not credibly - simply "make it up as they go along!" Why - because Scripture clearly doesn't support certain beliefs, not if proper study and analysis of relevant / pertinent Scripture passages is undertaken. But for much of the Church, where Christians' beliefs DO agree - and on a wide range of key Scriptural issues, is typically far more in sync than where they disagree.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#118

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon May 27, 2019 7:23 am

Ed,
Everyone interprets scripture, just as everyone interprets science.
That doesn't mean that everyone's interpretation carries the same weight as everyone else, correct?

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#119

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon May 27, 2019 7:27 am

Hang on there...

You seem to have just stated that the "life" that begins at conception is not a human being:
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2019 11:51 am
No one said anything about a human being, what I said is that LIFE begins at conception and that is a fact.

No life, no pregnancy, correct?
So sure, no life no pregnancy, but also no human no murder.
Life begins at conception, fact.
Whether that life is "human life" is debated by some ( not be me).
I simply put the argument in the most neutral way possible.
OBJECTIVELY, life begins at conception.


As for "no human, no murder".
Murder is the unjustified taking of a life.
No one mentioned ONLY human life.

Killing an animal without justification ( not like in the case of eating for example or maintaining the "circle of life" balance), would be an unjustified killing. Killing for sport would be murder for example.

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Re: So the redacted Mueller Report has been out for a while...

#120

Post by RickD » Mon May 27, 2019 7:31 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 7:27 am
Hang on there...

You seem to have just stated that the "life" that begins at conception is not a human being:
PaulSacramento wrote: ↑Fri May 24, 2019 11:51 am
No one said anything about a human being, what I said is that LIFE begins at conception and that is a fact.

No life, no pregnancy, correct?
So sure, no life no pregnancy, but also no human no murder.
Life begins at conception, fact.
Whether that life is "human life" is debated by some ( not be me).
I simply put the argument in the most neutral way possible.
OBJECTIVELY, life begins at conception.


As for "no human, no murder".
Murder is the unjustified taking of a life.
No one mentioned ONLY human life.

Killing an animal without justification ( not like in the case of eating for example or maintaining the "circle of life" balance), would be an unjustified killing. Killing for sport would be murder for example.
y:O2

Murder, by definition, only applies to humans. Animals cannot be murdered.
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