Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

Discussions on a ranges of philosophical issues including the nature of truth and reality, personal identity, mind-body theories, epistemology, justification of beliefs, argumentation and logic, philosophy of religion, free will and determinism, etc.
Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#76

Post by Kenny » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:41 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:38 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:53 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:36 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:09 am


In what cases would you disagree and why?
Lets say if 90% of the world's population saw evidence of "X" being true, and 10% did not, and I were one of the 10% who did not; initially I would probably assume I and the rest of the other 10% did something wrong to not see the evidence, so I would do extensive research to understand why I did not get this information. If my extensive research shows the 90% to be wrong conserving the issue, I would accept it as true; thus the 90% is wrong.
Hmmm, that is very interesting.
How does that work with say, quantum mechanics or things that YOU simply can't prove via the 5 senses ?
I don't know much about quantum mechanics, so it's never been an issue with me.
Kind of missed the point, didn't you?
Probably; what's the point? Oh yeah; and the extensive research I mentioned before; it isn't limited to what can be proved via my 5 senses.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

PaulSacramento
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#77

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:55 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:41 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:38 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:53 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:36 am
Kenny wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:24 pm

Lets say if 90% of the world's population saw evidence of "X" being true, and 10% did not, and I were one of the 10% who did not; initially I would probably assume I and the rest of the other 10% did something wrong to not see the evidence, so I would do extensive research to understand why I did not get this information. If my extensive research shows the 90% to be wrong conserving the issue, I would accept it as true; thus the 90% is wrong.
Hmmm, that is very interesting.
How does that work with say, quantum mechanics or things that YOU simply can't prove via the 5 senses ?
I don't know much about quantum mechanics, so it's never been an issue with me.
Kind of missed the point, didn't you?
Probably; what's the point? Oh yeah; and the extensive research I mentioned before; it isn't limited to what can be proved via my 5 senses.
So, here is the thing, you ( and I) accept multiple things based solely on the belief that who is telling us these things are experts, right?
There is no way for us to verify them ourselves, correct?
And consensus is a big factor in us accepting those things also, right?

Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#78

Post by Kenny » Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:17 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:55 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:41 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:38 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:53 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:36 am


Hmmm, that is very interesting.
How does that work with say, quantum mechanics or things that YOU simply can't prove via the 5 senses ?
I don't know much about quantum mechanics, so it's never been an issue with me.
Kind of missed the point, didn't you?
Probably; what's the point? Oh yeah; and the extensive research I mentioned before; it isn't limited to what can be proved via my 5 senses.
So, here is the thing, you ( and I) accept multiple things based solely on the belief that who is telling us these things are experts, right?
There is no way for us to verify them ourselves, correct?
And consensus is a big factor in us accepting those things also, right?
I agree.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

PaulSacramento
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#79

Post by PaulSacramento » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am

Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:55 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:41 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:38 am
Kenny wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:53 pm


I don't know much about quantum mechanics, so it's never been an issue with me.
Kind of missed the point, didn't you?
Probably; what's the point? Oh yeah; and the extensive research I mentioned before; it isn't limited to what can be proved via my 5 senses.
So, here is the thing, you ( and I) accept multiple things based solely on the belief that who is telling us these things are experts, right?
There is no way for us to verify them ourselves, correct?
And consensus is a big factor in us accepting those things also, right?
I agree.
So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?

Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#80

Post by Kenny » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:55 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:41 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:38 am

Kind of missed the point, didn't you?
Probably; what's the point? Oh yeah; and the extensive research I mentioned before; it isn't limited to what can be proved via my 5 senses.
So, here is the thing, you ( and I) accept multiple things based solely on the belief that who is telling us these things are experts, right?
There is no way for us to verify them ourselves, correct?
And consensus is a big factor in us accepting those things also, right?
I agree.
So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?
I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

PaulSacramento
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#81

Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:55 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:41 am

Probably; what's the point? Oh yeah; and the extensive research I mentioned before; it isn't limited to what can be proved via my 5 senses.
So, here is the thing, you ( and I) accept multiple things based solely on the belief that who is telling us these things are experts, right?
There is no way for us to verify them ourselves, correct?
And consensus is a big factor in us accepting those things also, right?
I agree.
So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?
I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
Welcome to Theism in general and Christianity in particular.
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Nicki (Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:46 am)

Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#82

Post by Kenny » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 11:55 am


So, here is the thing, you ( and I) accept multiple things based solely on the belief that who is telling us these things are experts, right?
There is no way for us to verify them ourselves, correct?
And consensus is a big factor in us accepting those things also, right?
I agree.
So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?
I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
Welcome to Theism in general and Christianity in particular.
And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

PaulSacramento
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#83

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am
Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:17 pm

I agree.
So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?
I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
Welcome to Theism in general and Christianity in particular.
And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
Sure , yet, by your criteria, you should believe in A God ( even if you are not sure which one yet).
You have the testimony of BILLIONS ( believers in a God) and the expert opinion of countless of experts ( scholars, theologians).

Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#84

Post by Kenny » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:47 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am


So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?
I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
Welcome to Theism in general and Christianity in particular.
And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
Sure , yet, by your criteria, you should believe in A God ( even if you are not sure which one yet).
It doesn't work that way for me. In order for me to believe "X" is truth, real, the correct answer, etc. etc. I have to first know what "X" is.
[/quote]
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#85

Post by Kenny » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:47 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am


So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?
I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
Welcome to Theism in general and Christianity in particular.
And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
Sure , yet, by your criteria, you should believe in A God ( even if you are not sure which one yet).
It doesn't work that way for me. In order for me to believe "X" is truth, real, the correct answer, etc. etc. I have to first know what "X" is.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#86

Post by Kenny » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:48 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:14 am


So, if those with expert opinion AND a huge consensus of people ( billions) believe that evidence A points to conclusion B, why wouldn't you?
I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
Welcome to Theism in general and Christianity in particular.
And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
Sure , yet, by your criteria, you should believe in A God ( even if you are not sure which one yet).
It doesn't work that way for me. In order for me to believe "X" is truth, real, the correct answer, etc. etc. I have to first know what "X" is.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Philip
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#87

Post by Philip » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:47 am

Ken: And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
TOTALLY false! For example, much of the world has pantheistic beliefs - which are totally incompatible with Christian beliefs. And that's just one difference in Christianity and other religious beliefs.

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#88

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:19 pm

Kenny wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:48 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:42 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:17 pm
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:03 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:34 pm

I probably would! I can't think of a scenario where as I would not
Welcome to Theism in general and Christianity in particular.
And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
Sure , yet, by your criteria, you should believe in A God ( even if you are not sure which one yet).
It doesn't work that way for me. In order for me to believe "X" is truth, real, the correct answer, etc. etc. I have to first know what "X" is.
Do you feel that way about quantum mechanics?

Kenny
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#89

Post by Kenny » Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:34 am

Ken: And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B
Philip: TOTALLY false! For example, much of the world has pantheistic beliefs - which are totally incompatible with Christian beliefs. And that's just one difference in Christianity and other religious beliefs.

All the other religions have something about it that is totally incompatible with Christian beliefs; how does this point you made refute what I said?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#90

Post by Byblos » Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:41 am

Kenny wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:34 am
Philip wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:47 am
Ken: And here is where we disagree; I see Theism in general as evidence A points to conclusion B, but nobody agrees on what B is; and Christianity is just one of countless versions B

TOTALLY false! For example, much of the world has pantheistic beliefs - which are totally incompatible with Christian beliefs. And that's just one difference in Christianity and other religious beliefs.
All the other religions have something about it that is totally incompatible with Christian beliefs; how does this point you made refute what I said?
Reason alone necessarily leads to monotheism (A). From there it's reason coupled with revelation that lead to B. You're forever conflating the 2, hence discussions with you seem to always lead to C (nowhere).
Let us proclaim the mystery of our faith: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.

Lord I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.

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