Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#31

Post by Philip » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:39 am

Ken: What’s the worse that could happen if God were to address the entire world at once; in an audible voice from the clouds, in a language each of us could understand; to clear up all the misunderstandings everyone has of him?
It's a great question. And Scripture tells us God HAS, in times past, far more obviously and miraculously revealed Himself, to large numbers of people (as per the miracles of Noah and Jesus) and to many individually). And if you ask most Christians on this forum, they will tell you that God quite clearly has revealed Himself to us. But our experiences are all different, as God knows exactly what each person needs for faith - and these are unique to an individual. Also, God is not just after mere belief in His existence - clearly pharaoh and all those seeing Jesus raise Lazarus knew His power was of God - but many others seeing such things would not believe and obey. As God led Israel in the desert via physical manifestations, many still did not truly take him into their hearts, as they had the kind of belief Scripture says the demons have - mere intellectual belief.

Another issue is, WE don't get to choose how GOD chooses to reveal Himself to us. And His purposes and methods are perfectly known only to Him. And obviously, there are many God chooses not to reveal Himself to because He knows they don't really want to know or follow Him - as well as that no miraculous thing would ever change their heart and attitude. People saw Jesus do all manner of miracles, and yet they accused Him of doing these by the power of the Devil (which is "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." So, for such people not truly desiring to know the truth about God - really, knowledge of God is useless to them - and so He withholds such knowledge as they don't truly desire it - as most such people know that "if" God exists, they to follow Him faithfully, they would have to "get off the throne!" That is, instead of deciding for themselves what is right and wrong and doing as they please, that they would and could no longer be the "little god" of their life - but they instead desire to stay on the throne of their life - the one that is rightfully God's! And so, for such people unwilling to obey God - even if they discover His existence - He'll not make things anymore obvious for them. He doesn't do magic tricks for those determined not to believe!

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#32

Post by Philip » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:42 am

Here, in short videos, two of the world's most important Christian apologists, examine this question: Why doesn't God just make Himself more obvious?

William Lane Craig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBIsLTQ-GKQ


Rava Zacharias: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_dt9_iAhJI

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#33

Post by 1over137 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:07 pm

Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:58 am
1over137 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:38 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:12 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:33 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:39 pm

I (a skeptic) have been asked that question many times and I always give an answer; but the response to my answer is usually something like “God doesn’t work that way”, "God requires faith", or "how dare you the created insist the creator play by YOUR rules!"
Alright Kenny, what proof would be enough for you?
What’s the worse that could happen if God were to address the entire world at once; in an audible voice from the clouds, in a language each of us could understand; to clear up all the misunderstandings everyone has of him?
The military’s would send up F-16’s and various other fighter jets which will confirm it is not a hoax, every radio, news station, and recording device world wide would record the event so no reasonable person could ever deny or forget the fact that it happened, and everyone who wants to know the truth would know the voice from the sky is the true God, even if it isn’t the God they want to be true.
What’s the worse that can happen if God did this?
What's the worst that can happen if God did that?
Worst would be when people would crucify him.
Only if he allowed it.
What is your point now, Kenny?
Please, elaborate.
Thank you.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#34

Post by Kenny » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:09 pm

Philip wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:39 am
Ken: What’s the worse that could happen if God were to address the entire world at once; in an audible voice from the clouds, in a language each of us could understand; to clear up all the misunderstandings everyone has of him?
It's a great question. And Scripture tells us God HAS, in times past, far more obviously and miraculously revealed Himself, to large numbers of people (as per the miracles of Noah and Jesus) and to many individually). And if you ask most Christians on this forum, they will tell you that God quite clearly has revealed Himself to us. But our experiences are all different, as God knows exactly what each person needs for faith - and these are unique to an individual. Also, God is not just after mere belief in His existence - clearly pharaoh and all those seeing Jesus raise Lazarus knew His power was of God - but many others seeing such things would not believe and obey. As God led Israel in the desert via physical manifestations, many still did not truly take him into their hearts, as they had the kind of belief Scripture says the demons have - mere intellectual belief.

Another issue is, WE don't get to choose how GOD chooses to reveal Himself to us. And His purposes and methods are perfectly known only to Him. And obviously, there are many God chooses not to reveal Himself to because He knows they don't really want to know or follow Him - as well as that no miraculous thing would ever change their heart and attitude. People saw Jesus do all manner of miracles, and yet they accused Him of doing these by the power of the Devil (which is "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit." So, for such people not truly desiring to know the truth about God - really, knowledge of God is useless to them - and so He withholds such knowledge as they don't truly desire it - as most such people know that "if" God exists, they to follow Him faithfully, they would have to "get off the throne!" That is, instead of deciding for themselves what is right and wrong and doing as they please, that they would and could no longer be the "little god" of their life - but they instead desire to stay on the throne of their life - the one that is rightfully God's! And so, for such people unwilling to obey God - even if they discover His existence - He'll not make things anymore obvious for them. He doesn't do magic tricks for those determined not to believe!
So because when God revealed himself in an obvious way thousands of years ago and many rejected him, he won’t do it today? Today everybody has cell phones and recording devices and as I said before, no reasonable person would be able to deny it because of the technology that exists today that didn’t back then.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#35

Post by Kenny » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:12 pm

Philip wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:42 am
Here, in short videos, two of the world's most important Christian apologists, examine this question: Why doesn't God just make Himself more obvious?

William Lane Craig: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBIsLTQ-GKQ


Rava Zacharias: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_dt9_iAhJI
The videos were interesting, but I don't think the men did a good job of responding to the questions asked. The first on, the guy asked William Lane Craig a good question “why doesn’t God make his existence obvious” and Craigs response was “God wants more than to make his existence known, he wants a relationship.
The problem with this answer; before you can have a relationship with anyone, you must FIRST make your existence known. thus it didn’t seem to be a satisfactory answer IMO

The second one; Rava Zacharias, a questioner asked him “Why does God remain hidden” to which Rava (basically) replied; God provides just enough evidence for you to know he is there.
I didn’t find this to be a very good answer because if God did provide enough evidence, I doubt the questioner would have asked the question.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#36

Post by Kenny » Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:18 pm

1over137 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:07 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:58 am
1over137 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:38 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:12 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:33 am


Alright Kenny, what proof would be enough for you?
What’s the worse that could happen if God were to address the entire world at once; in an audible voice from the clouds, in a language each of us could understand; to clear up all the misunderstandings everyone has of him?
The military’s would send up F-16’s and various other fighter jets which will confirm it is not a hoax, every radio, news station, and recording device world wide would record the event so no reasonable person could ever deny or forget the fact that it happened, and everyone who wants to know the truth would know the voice from the sky is the true God, even if it isn’t the God they want to be true.
What’s the worse that can happen if God did this?
What's the worst that can happen if God did that?
Worst would be when people would crucify him.
Only if he allowed it.
What is your point now, Kenny?
Please, elaborate.
Thank you.
I asked the question what’s the worse that can happen if God addressed the world in an audible voice to clear up misunderstandings people have of him

You replied we would Crucify him. First of all I doubt people would be trying to crucify a voice coming from the sky (whatever that means); but even if they did try, how would they do it? If God didn’t want to be crucified by mankind, how would mankind accomplish this against his will?
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#37

Post by Philip » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:30 pm

I would submit that God knows perfectly how to most effectively reach out to a person and that how he does that for each person is more effective to what He wants to accomplish in drawing them - than what Ken suggests. Again, one desiring mere knowledge and awareness of God will not draw them into relationship with him. Ken would appear to assume that obtaining a mere intellectual knowledge of God's existence would be more than enough for most people to also desire to follow Him - which is a false belief. And God also knows that is unnecessary for most people. It's just not the way He typically chooses to do it. And He knows that obtaining more knowledge is not what most people's problem is when it comes to having faith in God. He will provide more than enough to those who sincerely desire to know the truth. And that should scare people not sincerely seeking Him. When a person states, "I'll believe in God when He shows me precisely how and in the exact way I expect of Him to do it" - well, that's incredibly arrogant - the creature simply doesn't get to tell the Creator how He should go about doing things!

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#38

Post by Kenny » Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:51 pm

Philip wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:30 pm
. Ken would appear to assume that obtaining a mere intellectual knowledge of Himself would be more than enough for most people to also desire to follow Him - which is false belief. And He also knows that is unnecessary for most people.
I never said that. You've obviously misunderstood the point I made.
RickD wrote
"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#39

Post by 1over137 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:06 pm

Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:51 pm
Philip wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:30 pm
. Ken would appear to assume that obtaining a mere intellectual knowledge of Himself would be more than enough for most people to also desire to follow Him - which is false belief. And He also knows that is unnecessary for most people.
I never said that. You've obviously misunderstood the point I made.
Then please Kenny, correct Philip and state your point again.
Thank you.
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#40

Post by 1over137 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:19 pm

I asked the question what’s the worse that can happen if God addressed the world in an audible voice to clear up misunderstandings people have of him

You replied we would Crucify him. First of all I doubt people would be trying to crucify a voice coming from the sky (whatever that means); but even if they did try, how would they do it? If God didn’t want to be crucified by mankind, how would mankind accomplish this against his will?
Ok, Kenny,
I will speak more clearly.

What I was pointing at, was that, in the past, people had not only voice from the sky. They had God himself who took human form. And what people did? Crucified him.

Based on this, and based on knowing people, what they do, how they behave, I assume, even if people had that voice from the sky, they would at the end suppress what they received from God, unless their hearts are open.

Now, I know, that it is you who came with this way of how God would proof himself.
And I want to encouradge you again to be patient, since you expressed:
Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:19 am
1over137 wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:02 pm
Kenny,
have you ever asked God:
"God. I would like to know you, please, show yourself to me in a way you work but in a way I could understand that you really are. I would like to know you and knowing you I would like to serve you, recognize you as my Lord and my Saviour."
Yes.
It is my wish and prayer that you one day receive this "voice from the sky".
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
-- 1 Thessalonians 5:21

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
-- Philippians 1:6

#foreverinmyheart

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#41

Post by Kenny » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:48 pm

1over137 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:06 pm
Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:51 pm
Philip wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:30 pm
. Ken would appear to assume that obtaining a mere intellectual knowledge of Himself would be more than enough for most people to also desire to follow Him - which is false belief. And He also knows that is unnecessary for most people.
I never said that. You've obviously misunderstood the point I made.
Then please Kenny, correct Philip and state your point again.
Thank you.
I suggested the voice from the sky would convince ME that this God exists. I never said what would cause most people to follow and worship him, (though I suspect such an event would) I only spoke on what would cause me to believe.
RickD wrote
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#42

Post by Kenny » Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:51 pm

1over137 wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 10:19 pm
I asked the question what’s the worse that can happen if God addressed the world in an audible voice to clear up misunderstandings people have of him

You replied we would Crucify him. First of all I doubt people would be trying to crucify a voice coming from the sky (whatever that means); but even if they did try, how would they do it? If God didn’t want to be crucified by mankind, how would mankind accomplish this against his will?
Ok, Kenny,
I will speak more clearly.

What I was pointing at, was that, in the past, people had not only voice from the sky. They had God himself who took human form. And what people did? Crucified him.
If some guy today claimed to be God or the son of God, I suspect most would reject him and call him a false prophet, or worse; do you agree? If so, why is it so surprising that this would be the reaction 2000 years ago.

Now a voice from the sky……
RickD wrote
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#43

Post by Philip » Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:57 am

Ken: If some guy today claimed to be God or the son of God, I suspect most would reject him and call him a false prophet, or worse; do you agree? If so, why is it so surprising that this would be the reaction 2000 years ago.
Um, Jesus raised a man from the dead, did all manner of fantastic miracles, and fulfilled difficult and precise prophesies while proclaiming the God of the Bible - He didn't merely make fantastical claims!

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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#44

Post by Kenny » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:01 am

Philip wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:57 am
Ken: If some guy today claimed to be God or the son of God, I suspect most would reject him and call him a false prophet, or worse; do you agree? If so, why is it so surprising that this would be the reaction 2000 years ago.
Um, Jesus raised a man from the dead, did all manner of fantastic miracles, and fulfilled difficult and precise prophesies while proclaiming the God of the Bible - He didn't merely make fantastical claims!
Of the 500 million people on Earth during that time, what percentage of the population do you suppose were able to witness Jesus doing those things?
Now a voice from the sky.....
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Re: Proof of God: "I want PROOF!"

#45

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:00 am

Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:40 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:27 am
Kenny wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:12 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Dec 21, 2018 5:33 am
Kenny wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:39 pm

I (a skeptic) have been asked that question many times and I always give an answer; but the response to my answer is usually something like “God doesn’t work that way”, "God requires faith", or "how dare you the created insist the creator play by YOUR rules!"
Alright Kenny, what proof would be enough for you?
What’s the worse that could happen if God were to address the entire world at once; in an audible voice from the clouds, in a language each of us could understand; to clear up all the misunderstandings everyone has of him?
The military’s would send up F-16’s and various other fighter jets which will confirm it is not a hoax, every radio, news station, and recording device world wide would record the event so no reasonable person could ever deny or forget the fact that it happened, and everyone who wants to know the truth would know the voice from the sky is the true God, even if it isn’t the God they want to be true.
What’s the worse that can happen if God did this?

Now, are you telling me that IF you heard God's voice ( since the question was addressed to YOU specifically), that YOU would believe it to be God, period?
Not quite what I said. Obviously if I heard the voice, but the guy next to me did not; I would probably assume I were having some type of mental break down, Hallucination, or something; but if (as I said) the entire world were addressed via the conditions I mentioned; I cannot imagine myself trying to deny such an event
What if the whole world heard it BUT you didn't? would you deny it then?

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