Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

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Philip
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Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#1

Post by Philip » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:25 am

Of course, there are many others - but these are myths widely passed around.

https://crossexamined.org/5-apologetics ... s-edition/

Any other such myths that come to mind - particularly concerning the Resurrection?

thatkidakayoungguy
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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#2

Post by thatkidakayoungguy » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:43 am

Philip wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:25 am
Of course, there are many others - but these are myths widely passed around.

https://crossexamined.org/5-apologetics ... s-edition/

Any other such myths that come to mind - particularly concerning the Resurrection?
That right when you die you go to eternal heaven or lake of fire. The bible shows there's a waiting period judgment/reward/holding place till the FINAL judgment, which is of eternal heaven or lake of fire.

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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#3

Post by Davy » Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:29 pm

Waste of time.

PaulSacramento
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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#4

Post by PaulSacramento » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:24 am

thatkidakayoungguy wrote:
Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:43 am
Philip wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:25 am
Of course, there are many others - but these are myths widely passed around.

https://crossexamined.org/5-apologetics ... s-edition/

Any other such myths that come to mind - particularly concerning the Resurrection?
That right when you die you go to eternal heaven or lake of fire. The bible shows there's a waiting period judgment/reward/holding place till the FINAL judgment, which is of eternal heaven or lake of fire.
Biblically speaking, when we die our spirit returns to God.
The state we are in at the time is described as "sleep" and to what degree we are aware is NOT mentioned in the bible.
There will be a resurrection of the bodies at the end of days and a judgment for non-christian ( those not in the book of life and those, those that did NOT put their faith in Jesus).
The lake of fire is where all those that oppose God will go at final judgment.

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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#5

Post by Davy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:28 am

The Bible does reveal to what level those who have died are aware after death. As with many other Scripture revelations in God's Word, it's still up to the reader to believe what's written, or not. Just because some do not believe it as written (most likely because of heeding men's traditions instead), it still will not change the fact that it is written:

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


Then in the very next 1 Peter 4 chapter...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV


It was prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that Jesus would lead the prisoners out of the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. The idea is that our Lord Jesus during His resurrection went to the souls in Satan's prison house that were bound in OT times, and He preached The Gospel to them, and those who believed He led out. They of course would have to be fully aware to believe and they also must have some kind body for Him to lead them out of that place to another.

The 'dead in the ground' theory is an old Jewish myth. At the resurrection our old flesh that went back to the earth at flesh death where it came from does not get put back with out spirit/soul. Apostle Paul declared that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body). The resurrection is an existence like the angels, not like flesh all over again. And angels can walk and talk while upon this earth, and even eat our food, and have the appearance of man.

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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#6

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:57 am

Davy wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:28 am
The Bible does reveal to what level those who have died are aware after death. As with many other Scripture revelations in God's Word, it's still up to the reader to believe what's written, or not. Just because some do not believe it as written (most likely because of heeding men's traditions instead), it still will not change the fact that it is written:

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


Then in the very next 1 Peter 4 chapter...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV


It was prophecy in Isaiah 42:7 that Jesus would lead the prisoners out of the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house. The idea is that our Lord Jesus during His resurrection went to the souls in Satan's prison house that were bound in OT times, and He preached The Gospel to them, and those who believed He led out. They of course would have to be fully aware to believe and they also must have some kind body for Him to lead them out of that place to another.

The 'dead in the ground' theory is an old Jewish myth. At the resurrection our old flesh that went back to the earth at flesh death where it came from does not get put back with out spirit/soul. Apostle Paul declared that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, neither does corruption (flesh) inherit incorruption (spiritual body). The resurrection is an existence like the angels, not like flesh all over again. And angels can walk and talk while upon this earth, and even eat our food, and have the appearance of man.
Where does those scripture tells us the STATE of the dead?
You do know that the "spirits in prison" are not the general "dead" we are speaking of, right?
What did Jesus say of Lazarus? That he was "sleeping".
What does Ecclesiastes 9:5 mean? It means that the dead are not aware of what goes on around them.

Are there exceptions to this rule? Of course but we are talking about what happens to the dead IN GENERAL.

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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#7

Post by Philip » Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:07 am

Soul sleep is believed by Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It's not Scriptural! It's primarily believed via wrong understandings of Eccl. 9:5 and Eccl. 12:7.

Note, in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, Jesus describes two kinds of people in the realm of the dead - which he illustrates by telling us about the rich man, who is separated by a gulf between believers and those who rejected God. They are both conscious and aware. Lazarus is receiving good things and "comfort" as opposed to the physical "agony" of the (former) rich man - who is hot and parched of thirst. Apparently they can move about, but cannot cross a "great chasm." The rich man can see, "Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." He calls over to Abraham - who can hear him and answers his requests for water, etc., and explains why neither can go across he chasm, and why he is in agony.

At the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17), Peter sees the two prophets of old, Elijah and Moses - both conscious and talking with Jesus.

In Revelation 6, before the new heaven and earth, we read: 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. And this chorus of souls in the presence of the Lord are saved people in the current Heaven - they are conscious and aware the earth still exists, and know that evil has not yet been vanquished, and thus are beseeching the Lord with a question.

No, we don't know a lot about the abilities of the dead. We have no reason to think they can hear us or know what we are doing, but they seem to have an awareness of where they are, and that the earth is yet in place.

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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#8

Post by Davy » Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:08 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 4:57 am

Where does those scripture tells us the STATE of the dead?
You do know that the "spirits in prison" are not the general "dead" we are speaking of, right?
What did Jesus say of Lazarus? That he was "sleeping".
What does Ecclesiastes 9:5 mean? It means that the dead are not aware of what goes on around them.

Are there exceptions to this rule? Of course but we are talking about what happens to the dead IN GENERAL.
We are shown their state in the heavenly by their being able to hear The Gospel preached by Christ to them, as written there. It is a tradition of men to simply assign the idea of 'spirits' to always mean demons and such, but that is not an idea originating from God's Word.

In Eccl.12:5-7, we are shown about a "silver cord" that attaches our spirit and our flesh body together, and it is severed at flesh death. Then our flesh goes back to the earth where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. That is the first hard hint we are given in Scripture of what part of our being appears in the heavenly after death of our flesh. In Matthew 10:28 our Lord Jesus shows it's our "soul" (Grk. psuche) that continues to the heavenly. And in Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man, whether one believes that's just a story or parable, He showed the continued existence of one's 'self' in the heavenly dimension.

Tradition, especially concerning Eccl.12:5-7, teaches that spirit part which returns to God is just animate spirit; but if that were true then it would mean we as personalities would then cease to exist, because it's similar to saying that our spirit is nothing but a drop of water that goes back into the great ocean (God). That idea is actually taught in eastern mysticism and is associated with the idea of 'becoming one with the cosmic', i.e., becoming selfless. It's not true though; our spirit includes our person, or id if you prefer, and that's what goes back to God at flesh death. In 1 Cor.15 and 2 Cor.5, Apostle Paul further defined our spiritual makeup. He showed that if our flesh body were dissolved, we have another building of God, not made with hands (i.e., not flesh), but a body that is eternal in the heavens. That's the spiritual body idea that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.15. That is the body image of the heavenly. Our mortal soul is attached to that spiritual body, and that is how our person or id continues. Because Paul taught in 1 Cor.15 that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, it shows that our future state in the new heavens and a new earth will not be in a flesh body like we have today; so that right there also reveals the continued existence of our self without the need for a flesh body.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 is often misinterpreted.

Eccl 9:5-6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
KJV


Does that mean those in Christ Jesus after they die have no more a reward? or the memory of them is forgotten, as if they never existed? or neither will they have anything to do under the sun? Do you really think that applies to those in Christ Jesus? That our flesh also dies does, but those other things do not... apply to God's children. So who do you think Solomon was really pointing to? The wicked. In that Eccl.9 chapter he is constantly comparing the wicked in contrast to God's children.

Isa 26:14
14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
KJV


In that Isaiah verse the word "deceased" is actually pointing to the hybrid giants in the Hebrew, i.e., Rephaim. They shall not rise, i.e., resurrect. That is more aligned to those Eccl.9:5 was speaking of.

You should be able to figure out why the term 'asleep' was used by our Lord Jesus and Paul concerning brethren that have already died. It's because we don't actually die when our flesh body dies. Our soul continues on to the heavenly. It's a way of saying that our soul is in God's hands and won't manifest here on earth until it's time for Jesus to return. This is why His Apostles were confused when He said that Lazarus is asleep when they knew Lazarus was dead.

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Re: Five Common Myths About Christianity Examined

#9

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:14 pm

Philip wrote:
Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:07 am
Soul sleep is believed by Seventh Day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It's not Scriptural! It's primarily believed via wrong understandings of Eccl. 9:5 and Eccl. 12:7.

Note, in the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus, Jesus describes two kinds of people in the realm of the dead - which he illustrates by telling us about the rich man, who is separated by a gulf between believers and those who rejected God. They are both conscious and aware. Lazarus is receiving good things and "comfort" as opposed to the physical "agony" of the (former) rich man - who is hot and parched of thirst. Apparently they can move about, but cannot cross a "great chasm." The rich man can see, "Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side." He calls over to Abraham - who can hear him and answers his requests for water, etc., and explains why neither can go across he chasm, and why he is in agony.

At the Mount of Transfiguration (Matthew 17), Peter sees the two prophets of old, Elijah and Moses - both conscious and talking with Jesus.

In Revelation 6, before the new heaven and earth, we read: 9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. And this chorus of souls in the presence of the Lord are saved people in the current Heaven - they are conscious and aware the earth still exists, and know that evil has not yet been vanquished, and thus are beseeching the Lord with a question.

No, we don't know a lot about the abilities of the dead. We have no reason to think they can hear us or know what we are doing, but they seem to have an awareness of where they are, and that the earth is yet in place.
The issue of the "soul sleep" doctrine of the Jw;s and Adventists is that they ASSUME the sleep means being TOTALLY unaware.
The analogy of sleep is, if we take Christ;s word for it, just that, Sleep.
And CAN we be aware of things when we sleep? yes.
Are we always aware or aware of everything? No.
In regards to the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, we have to be careful in what how we take a specific parable that teaches us "A" and think that it applies generally to "B".
I would argue that the parable has less to do with the state of the dead and more to show the comparison of "rewards" of the afterlife between a humble and pennant man ( Lazarus) and an arrogant AHole.

If the dead are not asleep, then why would that analogy be used and especially by Jesus?
IMO it is because it is the right one to use BUT I think that now, with the association with the JW's and such, people think "soul sleep" and picture the spirit sleeping, aware of nothing at all till the resurrection.

My view is that, in GENERAL, upon death, the spirit returns to God and sleeps ( rests if you prefer) until the resurrection and that the spirit is as aware as it needs to be or is required to be by God.
I don't think that applies to ALL deaths, like the martyrs for example or chosen ones of God like Moses and Elijah.

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