Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

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Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

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Post by Philip » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:32 am


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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

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Post by Kurieuo » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:42 pm

Does that then break the authoritative chain back to Christ with those popes who had pushed it against "heretics"?
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

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Post by Philip » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:56 pm

K: Does that then break the authoritative chain back to Christ with those popes who had pushed it against "heretics"?
That's a great question - isn't he unsurping a tremendous amount of historical papal declarations? Somewhere Martin Luther is just shaking his head! Is one guy in a pointy hat somehow more authoritative than another one? y:-?

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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

#4

Post by melanie » Fri Aug 03, 2018 5:48 am

You don’t need the Pope to weigh in on the death penalty when Jesus’ teachings was enough.
I find it the epitome of hypocrisy when in one breathe we uphold the New Testament then when it suits fall back on the old. If we follow the tenants of the New Testament then there is no way any Christian can uphold their Christian values whilst supporting the death penalty.
That is cultural and political and they are powerful influences so I understand how they influence but to pretend that that is Christian is disingenuous.
There is a problematic issue of how cultural norms distort the true teachings of Christ, not just with Capital Punishment but with many stances that directly stand in contrast with the teachings of Jesus.
Just because a given opinion is popular doesn’t make it just.

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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

#5

Post by RickD » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:33 am

Just to clarify, as I've stated before, I have no position on capital punishment. I've studied the issue. I've looked at the arguments from both sides. The only conclusion I've come to, is that in the US, there are too many mistakes when it comes to capital punishment. Too many people have been found innocent, after they have been put to death.

With that said, I think Romans 13:1-7 makes the case for the state's authority, but not obligation to administer capital punishment.
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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

#6

Post by Philip » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:51 am

To make a case that the death penalty is ALWAYS immoral - that it is EVIL - one has to also assert that God commanded something that was evil:

Genesis 9:6: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image."

Exodus 21:12: "“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death."

Numbers 35:31: "Moreover, you shall accept no ransom for the life of a murderer, who is guilty of death, but he shall be put to death."

Genesis 9: "And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man."

Romans 13: "Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.".

Did God say and command such things - or not? Can God EVER command an evil thing? Because that's what I see asserted about the death penalty.

Now, is the death penalty carried out justly and fairly and only to those truly guilty of pre-meditated murder - that's another question entirely.

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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

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Post by PaulSacramento » Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:14 am

My view on the death penalty is simple:
Death is a release, not a punishment.

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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

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Post by Kurieuo » Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:25 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:14 am
My view on the death penalty is simple:
Death is a release, not a punishment.
For some anyhow. Waking up to thy maker would be quite scarey for many, especially as the truth dawns on them.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

#9

Post by B. W. » Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:14 am

Kurieuo wrote:
Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:25 am
PaulSacramento wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:14 am
My view on the death penalty is simple:
Death is a release, not a punishment.
For some anyhow. Waking up to thy maker would be quite scarey for many, especially as the truth dawns on them.
Yes, and that was the point of biblical concept of the death penalty - send them to God to be judged where they are sent to face a true life sentence forever...

It is something not to take lightly and at least three actual truthful confirmed witnesses needed to support such a decree.
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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

#10

Post by Philip » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:28 am

It always bothers me when Christians rant about what they believe are practices or beliefs no Christian should support, but then when you ask them what about the places in Scripture that directly contradict what they assert, they don't address them. "So and so is an evil practice and only hypocritical, clueless Christians would support _________ (whatever) it!" Response: Well, the Bible here, here and here disagrees with your assertion." Followed by: Often - silence! If a person is basing their Christian beliefs on the Bible, then they should be able to make an informed response, and back it up per Scripture. Or if they just don't believe the Scriptures in question were actually God-given or inspired - they should SAY so. But if one does that, then whatever their assertion is that the Bible disagrees with - it holds no more weight than any other person's opinions - of which everyone has one. People just love to cherrypick their way through the Bible to find whatever they think supports whatever they might say about this or that subject - but it doesn't work like that.

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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

#11

Post by LittleHamster » Mon Aug 06, 2018 3:16 pm

We could always run for office and change the Law so that it suits our views. There is nothing un-biblical about that. Problem solved :-). Personally, I don't like killing people (ok. I'm a bit of a pansius) but I remind myself that the wages of our sins is death. Majority of humanity are condemned to death (it just takes a bit longer). And the guy with the white hat y:-?

We had a good discussion on death penalty (thanks fellow posters)->viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42535

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The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19), adultery (Leviticus 20:10), homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, every sin we commit should result in the death penalty because the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).

When the Pharisees brought a woman who was caught in the act of adultery to Jesus and asked Him if she should be stoned, Jesus replied, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her” (John 8:7). This should not be used to indicate that Jesus rejected capital punishment in all instances. Jesus was simply exposing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees. The Pharisees wanted to trick Jesus into breaking the Old Testament law; they did not truly care about the woman being stoned (where was the man who was caught in adultery?) God is the One who instituted capital punishment: “Whoever sheds man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed, for in the image of God He made man” (Genesis 9:6). Jesus would support capital punishment in some instances. Jesus also demonstrated grace when capital punishment was due (John 8:1-11). The apostle Paul definitely recognized the power of the government to institute capital punishment where appropriate (Romans 13:1-7).

How should a Christian view the death penalty? First, we must remember that God has instituted capital punishment in His Word; therefore, it would be presumptuous of us to think that we could institute a higher standard. God has the highest standard of any being; He is perfect. This standard applies not only to us but to Himself. Therefore, He loves to an infinite degree, and He has mercy to an infinite degree. We also see that He has wrath to an infinite degree, and it is all maintained in a perfect balance.

Second, we must recognize that God has given government the authority to determine when capital punishment is due (Genesis 9:6; Romans 13:1-7). It is unbiblical to claim that God opposes the death penalty in all instances. Christians should never rejoice when the death penalty is employed, but at the same time, Christians should not fight against the government’s right to execute the perpetrators of the most evil of crimes.

https://www.gotquestions.org/death-penalty.html
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Re: Pope Nixes the Death Penalty!

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Post by LittleHamster » Tue Aug 07, 2018 7:01 pm

Getting back to the guy with the white pointy hat....(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility)

"Papal infallibility is a dogma of the Catholic Church that states that, in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error "when, in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church.""

"The dogma of papal infallibility is rejected by Eastern Orthodoxy. Orthodox Christians hold that the Holy Spirit will not allow the whole Body of Orthodox Christians to fall into error[110] but leave open the question of how this will be ensured in any specific case. Eastern Orthodoxy considers that the first seven ecumenical councils were infallible as accurate witnesses to the truth of the gospel, not so much on account of their institutional structure as on account of their reception by the Christian faithful. Additionally, Orthodox Christians do not believe that any individual bishop is infallible or that the idea of papal infallibility was taught during the first centuries of Christianity."


What do we make of this ? Is Papal authority much different to a government holding authority over the people ?
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