Everything's gonna be okay!

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edwardmurphy
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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#31

Post by edwardmurphy » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:30 pm

Philip wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:19 am
Ed, while I appreciate your cynicism for all things Trump, I would think, no matter what we might think of him on a personal level (yes, he's a self-promoting piece of work), we better all hope he brings about some substantial positives. Because if he fails at the important stuff, we will ALL lose!
I'm not rooting for Trump to fail, just observing that that's what he's usually doing (and predicting that that's what he'll most likely keep doing).

There were some things in his platform that I supported, although the infrastructure deal is the only thing I can think of off-hand. But where's the infrastructure plan? Where's the new healthcare plan that's better and cheaper than Obamacare? When's the swamp getting drained? Nowhere.

There are also many things in his platform that I hated and/or dreaded, and they've all come to pass. I'm not going to bother listing the things that he's done that have pissed me off - I feel like I've pretty well covered them by now - but I think that most of Trump's successes have actually been disasters for our democracy, not to mention Trump's base.

Even with the one thing that's going objectively well - the stock market - things aren't how they're being presented. Remember the populist rage about how under Obama Wall Street was booming, but Main Street wasn't feeling the effects? That hasn't changed a bit. Sure, the Dow's stratospheric, but the overwhelming majority of that new wealth goes straight to the top 1%, just like it has for the last 30 years. Oddly, Trump no longer mentions how Main Street is getting screwed. It's almost as if he never actually cared...

So anyway, yeah, I live here and I don't want the nation to collapse, even if it means Trump getting blamed for it. But I also thing that he's an astonishingly bad president, as well as a truly awful human being.
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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#32

Post by Stu » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:29 am

Philip wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:19 am
Ed, while I appreciate your cynicism for all things Trump, I would think, no matter what we might think of him on a personal level (yes, he's a self-promoting piece of work), we better all hope he brings about some substantial positives. Because if he fails at the important stuff, we will ALL lose!

As for NK, Fat Boy at least talking more conciliatory - as he knows Trump will stand up to him and that continuation of severe sanctions makes him far more vulnerable at home - can only be a positive. One can't reasonably think a tyrant like Kim is going to change overnight - he's got to see his constant threats and nuclear ambitions are only hurting him, and that it's a win-win if he'll only abandon his nuke program. Right now, Kim is testing Trump.
Kim did recently return the remains of soldiers killed during the war, so while it's not denuclearising, he is at least doing that which would be important to the families, and that wouldn't have happened without Trump.
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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#33

Post by edwardmurphy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:04 am

Stu wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:29 am
Kim did recently return the remains of soldiers killed during the war, so while it's not denuclearising, he is at least doing that which would be important to the families, and that wouldn't have happened without Trump.
Maybe, maybe not. Clinton, Republican propaganda notwithstanding, is just as tough as Trump, and far more knowledgeable besides. She's as capable of levying sanctions as anybody else, and she might even have been able to do more. We'll never know.

Beyond that, Trump gave Kim a face to face meeting with a sitting US President. The Kim family has dreamed of getting that concession for decades. I'm aware that the return of our deceased servicemen is a big deal - assuming that they're actually American, which remains to be seen - but that meeting with Kim was a huge, huge concession. It's tough to see how he made a good deal for our country, especially since that's literally all he got.
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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#34

Post by Philip » Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:11 am

Ed: Remember the populist rage about how under Obama Wall Street was booming, but Main Street wasn't feeling the effects? That hasn't changed a bit.
Are you kidding me? When was the last time unemployment numbers were so low? Eight years of Obama, it was in the ditch. Taking away OVER-regulation, lowering corporate taxes (which has allowed companies to pay raises and bonuses they'd previously not been able to - specially smaller companies), and GOP-led $1,000 lower income taxes will allow the average U.S. household to keep each year. These are things that impact the economy, employment, and people's income - all really positive. None of these things happened under Obama. And his healthcare plan was all smoke and mirrors and lies - unsustainable and known to be from the start. Tamping down on the wild-west of people pouring across the border - these are good things.

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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#35

Post by edwardmurphy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:35 am

When Obama took office we were in a major recession - some economists call it a depression - and unemployment was at 7.8%. When he left office Wall Street was setting records and unemployment was at 4.8%.

When Trump took office Wall Street was still booming, and unemployment was still at 4.8%. Since then unemployment has dropped to about 4%.

So sure, unemployment has continued to go down since Trump, and Wall Street has continued to go up. But in a ditch under Obama? Nope, that's factually untrue. The economy was in a ditch when Obama took office, and it was booming when he left. Employment was high when he took office, and it was much lower when he left. To claim otherwise is to ignore reality.

Obama inherited a catastrophe and he fixed it. All Trump has had to do since taking office is not screw things up, yet he's pushing a protectionist agenda and flirting with a trade war. Maybe it'll work, or maybe he'll pull back before he causes another recession. Maybe. Meantime, I'm nervous. Watching Trump handle the Presidency is like watching my 3-year-old run across the living room with a full glass of grape juice.
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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#36

Post by RickD » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:00 am

I think the unemployment rate is a misleading statistic. Those who have been without work for so long that they have given up on looking for work, and their unemployment benefits have run out, aren't included in the unemployment rate.

But back to Trump...

There are certain people who will never criticize Trump, no matter what he does: ACB and Sean Hannity for examples.

And there are also people who will not give Trump credit for anything positive he has done for the US.
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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#37

Post by Philip » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:20 pm

I think the unemployment rate is a misleading statistic. Those who have been without work for so long that they have given up on looking for work, and their unemployment benefits have run out, aren't included in the unemployment rate.
Undoubtedly true - but the massive number of new jobs being created is not an illusion! Until the Obama years, we've never seen any approaching its virtual 10 years of severe recession since the pre-war years.

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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#38

Post by RickD » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:18 pm

Just curious what everyone's take on this is.

Trump campaigned on the promise to build a wall that Mexico would pay for.

1) we build a wall

2) Mexico will pay for the wall


Now, Trump is threatening to shut down the govt if democrats don't give him the votes for border security, which includes the wall.

Does the fact that he is now trying to get the wall paid for by taxpayer $ bother anyone?


To me, that's a huuuge change in what he campaigned on.

Thoughts?
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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#39

Post by Philip » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:43 pm

A better question: Would the wall make us safer and significantly stop people pouring over the border?

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Re: Everything's gonna be okay!

#40

Post by edwardmurphy » Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:24 pm

Phil, Obama took office in the midst of the Great Recession, but during his Presidency we recovered all of the jobs we lost and added 17 million more. Beyond that, although unemployment continued to rise for the first two years of his Presidency, after that point it dropped steadily for six straight years. And the Dow rose steadily and gained over 7,000 points during the Obama years. In fact, the Dow went up more under Obama than it has under Trump. One might argue that the Obama recovery wasn't as fast as it could have been, but calling it a recession is a bit much.

Rick, I'm capable of giving Trump credit, and when I think of a reason to do so I will. That said, I was against almost everything in his platform during the campaign, so I'm mostly opposed to what he says are his successes. And as I mentioned, the thing I actually liked - the infrastructure plan - hasn't happened and doesn't seem to be on the radar. If he succeeds at something that I don't oppose then I'll give him credit for it.

Regarding the Wall, yes, forcing tax payers to fund it is a huge change from his earlier promises. In fact, it's a huge betrayal.
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