Bav: You avoided my question...but I understand why. Is Christ speaking to false believers or to believers?
Irrelevant to my point.
Bav: Christ being the founder of our faith is that we cannot have faith at all if it wasn't FIRST given by God to have. Hence our own will. Perfecter means our faith is flawed.
If one HAS faith, how is that faith flawed? You either have it or you do not. There is NO flawed faith in Christ. But even if you hold your flawed faith contention to mean that it's not strong enough or that it could falter - what the heck do you think it means to say Christ PERFECTS our faith? Again, is something God has PERFECTED somehow deficient or on shaky ground? You are really missing the immense defect in your argument!
Bav: You really NEED to pick what you're going to stand on because so far, you're proclaiming Jesus does it all, yet acknowledging that you're still mortal and can be swayed by false teacher.
Why do you think not only Jesus, but particularly the Apostle Paul, spent so much time correcting errors of belief - errors that SAVED persons are prone to. Note Paul frequently addresses believers with such corrections.
Bav: My position is that Jesus does it all and that we can ONLY put our flawed faith in Him because He's given us the ability to choose...and if we REMAIN in Him, HE will remain in us. If we believe, we will be saved. If our faith works, then it is useful faith, if we love Him, then we'll keep His commands...etc.
Nuances don't seem to bother you? Yes, God gives us a choice - we must choose. BUT AFTER we have made our choice, God's Spirit enters us and He completes what He started - or don't you believe what Paul says? And you have it backwards from what John and Paul say. You: "if we REMAIN in Him, HE will remain in us." Paul and John: If He is in you, you are not only in Him, but you are so forever.
Paul in Philippians: "And I am sure of this, that HE who began a good work in you WILL bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Is Paul mistaken??? Does God need our help to complete a faith already had?
1 John 3 6: "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning
. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."
What is some future rejection of Christ but a continuation of sin - which Scripture says NO Christian will do, or was ever saved to begin with!
1 John 3:9: "No one
who is born of God will continue to sin
, because God’s seed REMAINS in them
; they cannot go on sinning
, because they have been born of God
. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.
So, what do you think that means? It specifically says that in God's eyes, NO saved person ("born of God) will continue to sin. Rejection of Christ is a sin - you say this is possible. In fact, God holds no Christian accountable for any further sin. Yes, we can and do continue to "sin" - but God sees us a pure and undefiled. Note also, that the above verse emphasizes why we can no longer sin (in God's eyes) - "Because God's seed REMAINS in them." Remains means ONGOING, no return to when His seed was not in them.
1 John 5:18: "We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin
; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them."
Once one is born again of God he "does not" continue to sin - how much clearer can that be? And how is that possible - "God keeps them safe" - this is why one stays saved, this is why the cannot sin again - not meaning they will never do wrong again, but that they have accepted the One Who paid the penalty for all wrongdoing of Believers - so as that they will no longer be accused of sin!
1 John 2:23: "No one who denies the Son HAS the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
What does that say - how much clearer need it be? It is impossible for one who already has the Son / Father to deny God!
Again, John declares: "For IF
they had belonged to us, they WOULD
have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us
Is John wrong? That these people APPEARING to follow Christ, really were never saved, as John says this abandonment of mere appearances ("their going") is PROOF that "NONE of them belonged to us."
These many verses directly refute that once saved, one will abandon their faith in Christ or can further sin in God's eyes. A subsequent rejection of any supposed faith would be sin - which Scripture says Christians will no longer do.
As Ripley would say, "Believe it or not!"