There is no Hope without Jesus

Healthy skepticism of ALL worldviews is good. Skeptical of non-belief like found in Atheism? Post your challenging questions. Responses are encouraged.
Nils
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#286

Post by Nils » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:17 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
Nils wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:Which strawman will be tackled first... :roll:
Please, be more specific.

And note that the subject of my post isn't to discuss Christianity but to describe my position. If you find my short mentioning of a possible relation to a religion not being a correct description of Christianity, well, then you may comment on that, but it is'nt my topic. I would rather prefer that you comment what I am talking about.
Sorry, you lost me. :econfused:
And I am totally lost why you are lost :econfused: :econfused:
One-liners are not an efficient way to communicate.

Nils

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#287

Post by RickD » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:24 pm

Nils,

You are all over the place.

You say we have no free will, and therefore don't choose to do wrong, such as murder. And then you say society should have punishment for murderers, to deter others from committing murder. But how can anyone be deterred from committing murder if they don't have a choice to murder?
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#288

Post by Kurieuo » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:29 pm

I got lost in the shop as a kid. Actually, I don't think my Dad helped. There was this one time he took me with him, then he left without me. It wasn't until home that my mum asked where I was that he realised he'd left me behind. Thankfully, Jesus is different. We leave ourselves behind, even keep God at a distance with a big invisible stick. We don't really want anything to do with him, but he continues looking for us and trying to bring us to him in various ways. Not that you believe such though, I just going off on a tangent.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Nils
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#289

Post by Nils » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:26 am

RickD wrote:Nils,

You are all over the place.
Yes Rick, the free will question interests me.

You say we have no free will, and therefore don't choose to do wrong, such as murder. And then you say society should have punishment for murderers, to deter others from committing murder. But how can anyone be deterred from committing murder if they don't have a choice to murder?
Think of a computer. The program and inputs determine its output. If you change the inputs, the output will change (no free will). The same with humans. Heredity and environment determine our behaviour. If you change the environment (saying that you will punish murders) you will prevent some murdering. No free will is needed.

Nils

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#290

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:34 am

The problem Nils, is that it has NOTHING to do with YOU.
You view works because YOU have not been brought up in a civilization that actually believes your view.
In short, you can "afford" to view things that way because someone else has already "paid" the price and established a civilization that works.

You sill haven't explained why I should, following your view, not do whatever I want to.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#291

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:36 am

First, about free will. I find it metaphysically impossible that we have a free will so that we can truly deserve punishment. We are the result of heredity and environment and perhaps some randomness. It is sheer luck if you are born into a nice family, being intelligent and socially competent. As well as it is not up to you that you look handsome it is not up to you that you are clever. It is sheer unluck if you happened to murder a person when others that had been born with better self-control avoided murdering in the same situation.

Therefore no one deserves to be punished, never.

On the other hand. That I don't have free will does not hinder me from finding out what is my will. I can deliberate to find out what is best to me, or just find out what I desire. In my ordinary life I usually don't think about the metaphysics so I often think that I have a free will even if I know I don't. That's not a delusion, that's just a practical way of thinking. But that requires that you can have two thoughts at the same time (a bit more complicated than only having one idea).

On punishment again. I say that no one deserves punishment but I also know that in a well-functioning society there has to be rules. During the evolution some of these rules have been implanted in those animals that lives in flocks e.g. wolves and chimpanzees. In our human societies those inherited rules are not sufficient and we have to enforce other rules as well. We also have to codify them in laws and punish those that break the laws. But the criminals should not be punished because they deserve punishment (looking backwards) but they have to be punished because we have to deter them and others to break the law in the future. There are also other aspects as isolating dangerous persons, educating them or rehabilitating them. These are forward looking reason to punish. If there were no such reasons we should not punish.
Metaphysically, you are 100% wrong.
Subjectively, you MAY be right.

I don't think you understand metaphysics...

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#292

Post by PaulSacramento » Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:38 am

Nils wrote:
RickD wrote:Nils,

You are all over the place.
Yes Rick, the free will question interests me.

You say we have no free will, and therefore don't choose to do wrong, such as murder. And then you say society should have punishment for murderers, to deter others from committing murder. But how can anyone be deterred from committing murder if they don't have a choice to murder?
Think of a computer. The program and inputs determine its output. If you change the inputs, the output will change (no free will). The same with humans. Heredity and environment determine our behaviour. If you change the environment (saying that you will punish murders) you will prevent some murdering. No free will is needed.

Nils
I think you need to revisit your computer analogy.
Do you mean AI ?
Computers have no free will because they are PROGRAMMED not to, or better yet, we don't know how to program that into them, yet.
AI is a different matter, hence the issues so many have with AI.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#293

Post by Kenny » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:50 am

Nils wrote:Think of a computer. The program and inputs determine its output. If you change the inputs, the output will change (no free will). The same with humans. Heredity and environment determine our behaviour. If you change the environment (saying that you will punish murders) you will prevent some murdering. No free will is needed.

Nils
I remember speaking to two brothers at different times; one was abusive to his girlfriends, the other kind. The abusive one said he was abusive to women because he grew up seeing his dad beat his mom and that’s all he knew; by watching his dad. The non-abusive one said he grew up watching his dad beat his mom and all he knew was to not be like his dad.

I think the problem with your computer analogy is the computer has no choice but to react to its input because it is incapable of making a decision. People are different; no matter our heredity or environment, we can still choose to do differently because we are capable of making a decision.
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#294

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:51 am

Kenny wrote:
Nils wrote:Think of a computer. The program and inputs determine its output. If you change the inputs, the output will change (no free will). The same with humans. Heredity and environment determine our behaviour. If you change the environment (saying that you will punish murders) you will prevent some murdering. No free will is needed.

Nils
I remember speaking to two brothers at different times; one was abusive to his girlfriends, the other kind. The abusive one said he was abusive to women because he grew up seeing his dad beat his mom and that’s all he knew; by watching his dad. The non-abusive one said he grew up watching his dad beat his mom and all he knew was to not be like his dad.

I think the problem with your computer analogy is the computer has no choice but to react to its input because it is incapable of making a decision. People are different; no matter our heredity or environment, we can still choose to do differently because we are capable of making a decision.
I like the logical Kenny. Can we please see more posts from him?
:lol:
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Nils
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#295

Post by Nils » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:20 pm

PaulSacramento wrote:The problem Nils, is that it has NOTHING to do with YOU.
You view works because YOU have not been brought up in a civilization that actually believes your view.
Paul, I am not certain about you what this argument implies even if it were true, but as I wrote earlier
"However, we can hold persons responsible for their act, using a consequential perspective. They are not MR because who they are, what motives they have etc. They are only MR because we need rules how to behave in a society. By adapting this idea we can skip or at least mitigate the feelings of retribution and instead try to rehabilitate the person. This was the official purpose of the criminal system in Sweden about 1940 - 1970. Then the idea of proportionality was introduced, the idea that the punishment should be proportional to the crime. But that idea was part of the criminal system also earlier even if not officially declared."
In short, you can "afford" to view things that way because someone else has already "paid" the price and established a civilization that works.
We are all standing on the shoulder of giants benefiting from what earlier generations have done. Is that wrong? Isn't it positive that we can refine earlier developments. Is it an argument against the validity of a theory that it has evolved gradually?

You sill haven't explained why I should, following your view, not do whatever I want to.
You can do whatever you want, the discussion is about free will i.e. free wanting. You can not control what you want, you desires, your preferences etc momentarily. In the long run you may control some of them given that you have stronger desires etc that overruns you weaker ones. But still what you really want depends on the circumstances, internal and external.

Nils

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#296

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:59 pm

RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nils wrote:Think of a computer. The program and inputs determine its output. If you change the inputs, the output will change (no free will). The same with humans. Heredity and environment determine our behaviour. If you change the environment (saying that you will punish murders) you will prevent some murdering. No free will is needed.

Nils
I remember speaking to two brothers at different times; one was abusive to his girlfriends, the other kind. The abusive one said he was abusive to women because he grew up seeing his dad beat his mom and that’s all he knew; by watching his dad. The non-abusive one said he grew up watching his dad beat his mom and all he knew was to not be like his dad.

I think the problem with your computer analogy is the computer has no choice but to react to its input because it is incapable of making a decision. People are different; no matter our heredity or environment, we can still choose to do differently because we are capable of making a decision.
I like the logical Kenny. Can we please see more posts from him?
:lol:
:esurprised:

I wonder if Nils just thinks we're all being obtuse. :P
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#297

Post by RickD » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:19 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
RickD wrote:
Kenny wrote:
Nils wrote:Think of a computer. The program and inputs determine its output. If you change the inputs, the output will change (no free will). The same with humans. Heredity and environment determine our behaviour. If you change the environment (saying that you will punish murders) you will prevent some murdering. No free will is needed.

Nils
I remember speaking to two brothers at different times; one was abusive to his girlfriends, the other kind. The abusive one said he was abusive to women because he grew up seeing his dad beat his mom and that’s all he knew; by watching his dad. The non-abusive one said he grew up watching his dad beat his mom and all he knew was to not be like his dad.

I think the problem with your computer analogy is the computer has no choice but to react to its input because it is incapable of making a decision. People are different; no matter our heredity or environment, we can still choose to do differently because we are capable of making a decision.
I like the logical Kenny. Can we please see more posts from him?
:lol:
:esurprised:

I wonder if Nils just thinks we're all being obtuse. :P
No, because thinking necessarily involves reasoning and making rational decisions. Both of which take free will to do.

:lol:
1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Audie wrote:
"Christianity is not a joke, but it has some very poor representatives."


St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony

Nils
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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#298

Post by Nils » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:30 am

PaulSacramento wrote:
First, about free will. I find it metaphysically impossible that we have a free will so that we can truly deserve punishment. We are the result of heredity and environment and perhaps some randomness. It is sheer luck if you are born into a nice family, being intelligent and socially competent. As well as it is not up to you that you look handsome it is not up to you that you are clever. It is sheer unluck if you happened to murder a person when others that had been born with better self-control avoided murdering in the same situation.

Therefore no one deserves to be punished, never.

On the other hand. That I don't have free will does not hinder me from finding out what is my will. I can deliberate to find out what is best to me, or just find out what I desire. In my ordinary life I usually don't think about the metaphysics so I often think that I have a free will even if I know I don't. That's not a delusion, that's just a practical way of thinking. But that requires that you can have two thoughts at the same time (a bit more complicated than only having one idea).

On punishment again. I say that no one deserves punishment but I also know that in a well-functioning society there has to be rules. During the evolution some of these rules have been implanted in those animals that lives in flocks e.g. wolves and chimpanzees. In our human societies those inherited rules are not sufficient and we have to enforce other rules as well. We also have to codify them in laws and punish those that break the laws. But the criminals should not be punished because they deserve punishment (looking backwards) but they have to be punished because we have to deter them and others to break the law in the future. There are also other aspects as isolating dangerous persons, educating them or rehabilitating them. These are forward looking reason to punish. If there were no such reasons we should not punish.
Metaphysically, you are 100% wrong.
Subjectively, you MAY be right.

I don't think you understand metaphysics...
Any arguments?
Nils

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#299

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:27 am

Yes, Natural Law.

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Re: There is no Hope without Jesus

#300

Post by PaulSacramento » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:33 am

Nils wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote:The problem Nils, is that it has NOTHING to do with YOU.
You view works because YOU have not been brought up in a civilization that actually believes your view.
Paul, I am not certain about you what this argument implies even if it were true, but as I wrote earlier
"However, we can hold persons responsible for their act, using a consequential perspective. They are not MR because who they are, what motives they have etc. They are only MR because we need rules how to behave in a society. By adapting this idea we can skip or at least mitigate the feelings of retribution and instead try to rehabilitate the person. This was the official purpose of the criminal system in Sweden about 1940 - 1970. Then the idea of proportionality was introduced, the idea that the punishment should be proportional to the crime. But that idea was part of the criminal system also earlier even if not officially declared."
In short, you can "afford" to view things that way because someone else has already "paid" the price and established a civilization that works.
We are all standing on the shoulder of giants benefiting from what earlier generations have done. Is that wrong? Isn't it positive that we can refine earlier developments. Is it an argument against the validity of a theory that it has evolved gradually?

You sill haven't explained why I should, following your view, not do whatever I want to.
You can do whatever you want, the discussion is about free will i.e. free wanting. You can not control what you want, you desires, your preferences etc momentarily. In the long run you may control some of them given that you have stronger desires etc that overruns you weaker ones. But still what you really want depends on the circumstances, internal and external.

Nils

In short:
Your subjective moralistic view works because you are raised in a society that has laws that are based on an objective moralistic view.
You can afford to be subjective because there are Laws in place and you were raised to act knowing that "sought and should" do exist.
You can believe that you have no choice in your decisions and that we shouldn't punish people that choose to do bad things because it isn't their choice, because you are raised in a society that protects you from that natural consequences of what would come out of that view.
You can believe that responsibility is not related to freedom of choice, though you can't logically explain why ( neither can Sam Harris by the way) people should be held accountable for actions that they have no choice in making, and you cna believe that because you live and were raised in a society that actually believes that people DO CHOOSE and ARE held accountable and we have Laws and rules BECAUSE of it.
The very laws that allow you to have a safe life and have human rights.
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