Understanding the Trinity

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#106

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:49 pm

bbyrd009 wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:the support found from even certain Jewish corners.
i like those, btw, they are cool. Let's not forget that Islam uses the same terminology, and means to express the same idea, God as "We," even if we are killing them for not agreeing with our version, verbatim. I like the "wheel of prophecy," for this, which i'll try to UL a copy, but it might be tiny, sorry:
Image

ya, or non-existent, lol. google images has it, though.
Many within Islam commit shirk I think without even realising it. What is the message of the Quran? It is (believed to be) the Word of God, eternal, transcendent, everlasting.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#107

Post by crochet1949 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:00 pm

bbyrd009 wrote:Or, it does me no good to say that i am not God, i am not a narcissist, becuase i have confessed Jesus as my Savior, if the next words out of my mouth are no, you are wrong, and your post is wrong, and your interpretation of that verse is wrong, because i know, that this interp is right, see, i know now, that it has to mean this, and so i have just found a new way to be God, see, and now i am worse off, seven times worse, because now i got Scripture to prove my pov.

And even though i am persuaded that you are not lying, my posts should be taken differently, because i am telling the truth. My posts are of course different than everyone else's, who does not understand. Because after all, i am just here to help you. Because i know.

"No one is 'God' except God Himself. Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

There are probably other Scripture passages about who God is. That there is no other 'god' other Than God, Himself.
Palm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth!"
And that is God speaking to all of us.
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#108

Post by bbyrd009 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:10 pm

Kurieuo wrote:
bbyrd009 wrote:
Kurieuo wrote:the support found from even certain Jewish corners.
i like those, btw, they are cool. Let's not forget that Islam uses the same terminology, and means to express the same idea, God as "We," even if we are killing them for not agreeing with our version, verbatim. I like the "wheel of prophecy," for this, which i'll try to UL a copy, but it might be tiny, sorry:
Image

ya, or non-existent, lol. google images has it, though.
Many within Islam commit shirk I think without even realising it. What is the message of the Quran? It is (believed to be) the Word of God, eternal, transcendent, everlasting.
Muslims are people, too, yes. And all you have to do is read It, it takes like what 2 days, right. And It is in There, imo. Fear God, follow Christ, and reap what you sow. All in there. Free to be misinterpreted, after forgetting The Beginning of Sur'ahs and Its "Opening," or not.

And you can tell this also because like the Bible, and anything that comes from Word, it divides people, pretty much right down the middle, 50/50, on pretty much any doctrine that men come to hold in Them. Name any doctrine that you have come to enshrine, and present your Witnesses, that i may present the "opposite" doctrine of, from the same Source. This is what Scripture does; fillet you. You are the one who decides what a passage means, no matter whether you got that interpretation in a desert or in a garden (and, we start out Free Men, laden with gold even, leaving slavery, Egypt). And so our interpretation might start out in the Wilderness, and progress, or fruit more, as here a little there a little has its effect, and we become more willing to die every day and be willing to resolve one of, essentially, our doctrinal issues, one of those "seven spirits," that Paul addresses to each state of your "church," that reads like just a little admonishment for some other believers, in that past church, that were guilty of doing that thing, whatever it was, which varies with each "church," the Seven Churches.

Thus, any sins that Paul mentioned to those churches must be understood, and if you cannot apply Paul's complaint against them to yourself, iow you have experienced being guilty of that, and you remember the fruit of it, etc, well, if you can't work that passage out to apply to you in some way (recognizing the terminology Paul used is symbolic, gender and all, meaning i don't care if Paul is talking about women chattering in some church if what matters is that i have a woman that can be out of line, spiritually speaking), if i cannot apply that verse to myself, then that is a clear pointer to which spirit of the seven i am dealing with. Every single line of Scripture applies to me.

Love believes all things is grasping that yes, there is a Trinity implied, of course, just as the truth that that cannot be conclusively nailed down in a holistic rendering of Scripture is also a statement, to be understood; there are other, valid perspectives, and Trinity can also be a god that you make.
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#109

Post by bbyrd009 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:27 pm

crochet1949 wrote:
bbyrd009 wrote:Or, it does me no good to say that i am not God, i am not a narcissist, becuase i have confessed Jesus as my Savior, if the next words out of my mouth are no, you are wrong, and your post is wrong, and your interpretation of that verse is wrong, because i know, that this interp is right, see, i know now, that it has to mean this, and so i have just found a new way to be God, see, and now i am worse off, seven times worse, because now i got Scripture to prove my pov.

And even though i am persuaded that you are not lying, my posts should be taken differently, because i am telling the truth. My posts are of course different than everyone else's, who does not understand. Because after all, i am just here to help you. Because i know.

"No one is 'God' except God Himself. Revelation 22:13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last."

There are probably other Scripture passages about who God is. That there is no other 'god' other Than God, Himself.
Palm 46:10 "Be still and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations. I will be exalted in the earth!"
And that is God speaking to all of us.
other gods are plainly acknowledged in Scripture, though. And we are "to be like gods," ourselves. We makes gods of all kinds of things, without realizing it. gods exist. that they are only manifestations that we have produced is irrelevant to the truth that they now exist. The Bible gives due to many powerful gods, Hades, and others, by name. How did a Greek god get into your Bible, anyway? Why is a Greek god of the underworld, that you do not believe in, come to be responsible somehow for your current concept of "hell," which when you look does not obtain with the god's mythology? no fires, no torture, none of that. You should go see, it's a fascinating story, really, how Gehenna got turned into hell for us.

oh, but i also totally agree with your post, too :)
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#110

Post by crochet1949 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:09 pm

There Were people groups in the Old Testament who worshipped their own man-made 'gods' -- the fertility goddess -- various 'gods' representing various things. And they were told to Not worship them. Part of the Ten Commandments given to the Children of Israel.

I'm not going to attempt to answer any more of your comments / questions. You feel that you're in this Forum to help 'set us all straight' with our beliefs. Well -- God's Word...... sets us straight.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#111

Post by Kurieuo » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:35 pm

What can I say Bbyrd? Not sure how to read your last post, but truth is divisive. Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth and the life. He also said,
  • 34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
The Trinity, is a doctrine. It is one developed via theologising over sources of revelation (Scripture) and reason. One can drop the term Trinity if they like, and just say the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all referred to as God and yet God is One. Yet, one should not deny any part of that, unless they go off on their own ignoring Scripture.

As for one being saved, my children do not understanding such a concept. Many adult Christians do not. It's likely a reason JWs love to target it in their witnessing. Muslims too like to target it. Yet, the tenets of such are clearly found in teachings with Apostolic authority. YET, I believe my children are saved, and many adults who fail to grasp it. As for JWs and the like, I'm certain if their hearts to truly for Christ, they too, given enough time, will increasingly have more correct knowledge as the Holy Spirit works in their lives leading and teaching them.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#112

Post by bbyrd009 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:34 am

crochet1949 wrote:You feel that you're in this Forum to help 'set us all straight' with our beliefs.
that is not at all true, and i am convinced that God is only expressed between two posters, reflecting both "sides" of human understanding, that a reader may find the truth, or a clearer reflection of it, in the middle.

and i do understand your feelings at "gods," nonetheless we are called to be like gods, and it is acknowledged that we should not worship other gods.
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#113

Post by bbyrd009 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:39 am

Kurieuo wrote:What can I say Bbyrd? Not sure how to read your last post, but truth is divisive. Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth and the life. He also said,
  • 34“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
The Trinity, is a doctrine. It is one developed via theologising over sources of revelation (Scripture) and reason. One can drop the term Trinity if they like, and just say the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all referred to as God and yet God is One. Yet, one should not deny any part of that, unless they go off on their own ignoring Scripture.

As for one being saved, my children do not understanding such a concept. Many adult Christians do not. It's likely a reason JWs love to target it in their witnessing. Muslims too like to target it. Yet, the tenets of such are clearly found in teachings with Apostolic authority. YET, I believe my children are saved, and many adults who fail to grasp it. As for JWs and the like, I'm certain if their hearts to truly for Christ, they too, given enough time, will increasingly have more correct knowledge as the Holy Spirit works in their lives leading and teaching them.
amen--we are usually only in contact with people for a moment in time, a small sliver of their entire life. It is easy to get frustrated or have some reaction if/when someone else does not immediately agree with one of our doctrines, not seeing that we are planting seeds, and they take root and have an effect over time.

And at "truth is divisive," this is a good point. There is some obvious way to tell the real from the counterfeit there, but i am still on my first cuppa lol. Have to come back here after i chew on this some. Very good point.
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#114

Post by crochet1949 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:59 pm

bbyrd009 wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:You feel that you're in this Forum to help 'set us all straight' with our beliefs.
that is not at all true, and i am convinced that God is only expressed between two posters, reflecting both "sides" of human understanding, that a reader may find the truth, or a clearer reflection of it, in the middle.

and i do understand your feelings at "gods," nonetheless we are called to be like gods, and it is acknowledged that we should not worship other gods.

You seem to be getting two concepts mixed a bit -- 'where two or three are gathered together, my name, there is Christ in the midst." As opposed to -- that God is expressed between two posters, both sides are reflected and the truth is in the middle.

Believers are called to be Christ-like // the Son of God // not like God. While Jesus Christ was here -- What Would Jesus Do -- in a given situation.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#115

Post by Nessa » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:53 pm

bbyrd009 wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:You feel that you're in this Forum to help 'set us all straight' with our beliefs.
that is not at all true, and i am convinced that God is only expressed between two posters, reflecting both "sides" of human understanding, that a reader may find the truth, or a clearer reflection of it, in the middle.

and i do understand your feelings at "gods," nonetheless we are called to be like gods, and it is acknowledged that we should not worship other gods.
I feel you twist things and take things out of context re: we are to be 'gods'
Last edited by Nessa on Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#116

Post by bbyrd009 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:35 pm

crochet1949 wrote:
bbyrd009 wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:You feel that you're in this Forum to help 'set us all straight' with our beliefs.
that is not at all true, and i am convinced that God is only expressed between two posters, reflecting both "sides" of human understanding, that a reader may find the truth, or a clearer reflection of it, in the middle.

and i do understand your feelings at "gods," nonetheless we are called to be like gods, and it is acknowledged that we should not worship other gods.

You seem to be getting two concepts mixed a bit -- 'where two or three are gathered together, my name, there is Christ in the midst." As opposed to -- that God is expressed between two posters, both sides are reflected and the truth is in the middle.
no, you're right, those are two different concepts. The "two or three witnesses" might be extended to verses of Scripture, verifying each other, but that the truth is more fully reflected in-between two posters is sort of a corollary, that one realizes more when reading two other posters on a matter, and they are not involved except as an "observer." That you may only agree with one of them 10%--or less--does not mean that they are not telling the truth as they see it--unless they are obviously lying, which does happen sometimes--although they might very well be lying to themselves, of course.
crochet1949 wrote: Believers are called to be Christ-like // the Son of God // not like God. While Jesus Christ was here -- What Would Jesus Do -- in a given situation.
hey, you don't have to guess lol, He gave us explicit instructions. Go out two-by-two, meaning the two of you, crochet, 2 men in a bed, leave town, don't take a purse or extra shirt or shoes, just go, go out in the manner of a shepherd, and when you are welcomed somewhere, stay there until you leave that town, and "eat" what they give you.

And the passage is "be like gods," so i don't think it is trying to conflate that with "be God" or anything. I take it as a notice to understand the awesome responsibility of free will.

I said, "You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High. et al.
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#117

Post by bbyrd009 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:44 pm

Nessa wrote:
bbyrd009 wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:You feel that you're in this Forum to help 'set us all straight' with our beliefs.
that is not at all true, and i am convinced that God is only expressed between two posters, reflecting both "sides" of human understanding, that a reader may find the truth, or a clearer reflection of it, in the middle.

and i do understand your feelings at "gods," nonetheless we are called to be like gods, and it is acknowledged that we should not worship other gods.
I feel you twist things and take things out if context re: we are to be 'gods'
yes, exactly, you are called to be like gods, by God, repeated many places, Moses was "like a god" to Pharaoh, and you are to be like a god, in a very real sense, which does not mean go looking for acolytes to bow down to you, of course, even though "boldness" can be abused for that end, but rather become like a god in service, and there is a way to be like a god through humility. But that talk starts in Genesis, and its antithesis is also in Genesis, at "be like God, knowing good and evil" after eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

So, we see this curse reflected in many with, say, Doctorate degrees in Theology or whatever, even in people claiming to seek God. When you are told "no, that passage does not mean that, because it means this, and this is what it has to mean" you have an example of someone "being like God." Which that is just a for-instance that came to mind, someone expounding on Scripture as if they "know," disregarding that they are violating much other Scripture, about "knowing," and about Scripture being Living, and thus subject to interpretation, etc. There is usually some predicting about the future going on in these cases, lack of "Understand I AM" iow, many other signs, that one is trying to be like God, and not gods.
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#118

Post by bbyrd009 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:17 pm

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm

for the several definitions of "gods." See that Nehushtan was a god, the Snake on a Pole, that the "inheritors" of the Promised Land worshipped; and many other gods seek worship, too. That does not mean that you are not to "be like a god," that just means that you are not to attempt to "be like God." Iow follow the most humble guys you can find, who are admitted to "be like gods" some kind of way, although they are not seeking worshippers, as Moses was not, and David was not. Follow them iow, and "be like gods," which does call for an adjustment to your Original Sin model, granted, but as that is crap anyway, a completely farcical construct, wadr, that did not even evolve until after Ge-Hinnom (on Erets) got turned into hell, which is why i say go and find that lie out first, and the rest comes unraveled by itself pretty quick. Go find out how Greek mythological gods (that were worshipped) got inserted into your Holy Writ.
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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#119

Post by bbyrd009 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:19 pm

Nessa wrote:
bbyrd009 wrote:
crochet1949 wrote:You feel that you're in this Forum to help 'set us all straight' with our beliefs.
that is not at all true, and i am convinced that God is only expressed between two posters, reflecting both "sides" of human understanding, that a reader may find the truth, or a clearer reflection of it, in the middle.

and i do understand your feelings at "gods," nonetheless we are called to be like gods, and it is acknowledged that we should not worship other gods.
I feel you twist things and take things out if context re: we are to be 'gods'
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/430.htm
for the several definitions of "gods," of which one of them applies to you, and another, different one, applies to Molech etc.

See that Nehushtan was a god, the Snake on a Pole, that the "inheritors" of the Promised Land worshipped; and many other gods "seek" worship, too--meaning of course that people make these gods, to worship, not that there are any actual gods that exist as such. They are constructs, that people make because people are hypocrites, i am a hypocrite, and no less immune to making gods for myself, right now, regardless of whether i am going to some church 3-4 times a week, got all kinda Scripture memorized, doesn't matter. That does not mean that you are not to "be like a god," that just means that you are not to attempt to "be like God." Iow follow the most humble guys you can find, who are admitted to "be like gods" some kind of way, although they are not seeking worshippers, as Moses was not, and David was not. Follow them iow, and "be like gods," which does call for an adjustment to your Original Sin model, granted, but as that is crap anyway, a completely farcical construct, wadr, that did not even evolve until after Ge-Hinnom (on Erets) got turned into hell, which is why i say go and find that lie out first, and the rest comes unraveled by itself pretty quick.

Go find out how Greek mythological gods (that were worshipped) got inserted into your Holy Writ.
"Creation is continuous, and never stops."

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Re: Understanding the Trinity

#120

Post by bbyrd009 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:31 pm

Kurieuo wrote:What can I say Bbyrd? Not sure how to read your last post, but truth is divisive.
So, i am still reflecting upon how might one tell when this "divisive" aspect is because truth is being contested, or when the intent is to divide, specifically, which it can at least be argued that Christ never meant to utter any words that divided people, specifically, while still of course understanding that His words would be quite divisive. But He is not setting out to divide people, as in "a house divided," He divides people because they are already divided, and His words illuminate the division (hypocrisy).

And "fruit" is the only answer that i have really come up with. So, not sure if "trinity doctrine" is a good example for this--unless no one is able to witness the fruit of the doctrine, in which case you gotta go "hmm" imo. Just sayin'

So, for what it's worth, what is the fruit of "hating your life," for instance? A doctrine espoused by Christ, that divides people, plenty? Well, new life in Christ. This is the fruit, the goal, the aim. What is the fruit of Trinity doctrine? It has been said that it aided in establishing someone's faith; honest enough. But this hints at the problem of Trinity doctrine; it can be used to establish false bona-fides, or a forced perspective of Christ, when every sentence Christ uttered, practically speaking, runs counter to the doctrine.

So one must ask at some point why is this doctrine being so "forcefully" forwarded, or, what is the fruit of this doctrine? What does it do for you? Does it function as a way to honor Christ, even though Christ cannot be quoted establishing the doctrine? Or does it serve a more...selfly purpose?

"I had doubts about Christ, until someone showed me 'proof' that Jesus was God."

by which i do not mean to denigrate Trinity doctrine, ok, as i said, i really have no problem with the doctrine per se, i have a problem with the fruit produced after the doctrine gets put in harness by people with an agenda other than Christ.
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