The Delusion of "Free Will"

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#61

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:34 pm

Nessa wrote:It's just silly really.

If you have two closed mystery boxes sitting front of you.. and you can only pick one... you um and ah for several minutes when all along you had no choice but do what you were always going to do. Might as well just save time and do the first thing that comes into your mind.
But why did whatever first came to mind, do so? Why didn't something else first come to mind? There has to be a "because," and that because is what put it into your mind rather than anything else. For something else to arise in your mind there would have had to be some other "because." But there wasn't. Hence X was the first thing that came into mind rather Y or Z.
It's a fatalistic mentality that removes personal responsibility.
As I told Kurieuo: The lack of free will can certainly fly in the face of some of our most cherished concepts and can certainly be disconcerting, but this doesn't invalidate it.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#62

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:48 pm

Audacity wrote:
Nessa wrote:It's just silly really.

If you have two closed mystery boxes sitting front of you.. and you can only pick one... you um and ah for several minutes when all along you had no choice but do what you were always going to do. Might as well just save time and do the first thing that comes into your mind.
But why did whatever first came to mind, do so? Why didn't something else first come to mind? There has to be a "because," and that because is what put it into your mind rather than anything else. For something else to arise in your mind there would have had to be some other "because." But there wasn't. Hence X was the first thing that came into mind rather Y or Z.
It's a fatalistic mentality that removes personal responsibility.
As I told Kurieuo: The lack of free will can certainly fly in the face of some of our most cherished concepts and can certainly be disconcerting, but this doesn't invalidate it.
Ok, say I decided to manipulate the 'cause' and decide from now on to do the first thing that comes into my head. You are saying I can't do that cos its actually the 'cause' causing me to manipulate it, while falsely believing it was my own choice..

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#63

Post by Philip » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:29 pm

So the thought that comes into one's mind, is the cause of a thing? Um, what about how one decides to ACT upon such things that come to their mind - what caused the reaction to the thought, and then the action derivative of the mental reaction? y:-?

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#64

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:32 pm

Nessa wrote: Ok, say I decided to manipulate the 'cause' and decide from now on to do the first thing that comes into my head. You are saying I can't do that cos its actually the 'cause' causing me to manipulate it, while falsely believing it was my own choice..
Your "decision" to manipulate the cause was the inevitable result of the chain of causes/effects that led to it; the decision. You had to decide to manipulate the "cause." Same goes for the nature of the decision: to do the first thing that comes into your head. So too for any impression you may form about the whole thing: "while falsely believing it was my own choice." This too would be the inevitable consequence of the chain of causes/effects that led up to it. Everything. Absolutely everything we do and think is because we had to do it. Why? because all actions, even mental ones, have a cause. If they didn't then they would have to simply *poof* into existence from absolutely nowhere, which, of course, doesn't help the notion of free will one bit.
Last edited by Audacity on Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#65

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:54 pm

Audacity wrote:
Nessa wrote: Ok, say I decided to manipulate the 'cause' and decide from now on to do the first thing that comes into my head. You are saying I can't do that cos its actually the 'cause' causing me to manipulate it, while falsely believing it was my own choice..
Your "decision" to manipulate the cause was the inevitable result of the chain of causes/effects that led to it; the decision. You had to decide to manipulate the "cause." Same goes for the nature of the decision: to do the first thing that comes into your head. So too for any impression you may form about the whole thing: "while falsely believing it was my own choice." This too would be the inevitable consequence of the chain of causes/effects that led up to it. Everything. Absolutely everything we do and think is because we had to do it. Why? because all actions, even mental ones, have a cause. If they didn't then they would have to simply *poof* into being from absolutely nowhere, which, of course, doesn't help the notion of free will one bit.
How do you know the cause isnt ourselves that is influenced by other factors such as genes, environment, other people, personal preferences etc?

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#66

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 2:55 pm

Philip wrote:So the thought that comes into one's mind, is the cause of a thing?
It most certainly can be; although, I don't believe every effect must necessarily become a cause of something else. So a thought may simply be the end of a particular chain of causes/effects. The thought "boogers don't taste good" may not lead to any consequent thought at all. Perhaps an event from the outside, a bang from a gun for example, interrupted the booger thought, and your next thought revolves around the bang.
Um, what about how one decides to ACT upon such things that come to their mind - what caused the reaction to the thought, and then the action derivative of the mental reaction? y:-?
The hows and particulars of the cause/effect chain are typically unknown and even unknowable. So it is highly unlikely anyone could point them out. One could certainly take a stab at it, "I did X because of Y, and I did Y because of . . .K, but I'm not so sure why I K arose. Hmmmm. 'Tis a puzzlement.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#67

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:05 pm

Don't you see how this line of thinking takes away a persons ability to rightfully own their own behaviour?

"I had no choice but to molest your three year old..."
"I had no choice but to torture your wife/husband/child.."
"I had no choice but to rape her and kill her...."


Actually come to think of it, we are all just victims of an unknown cause.

Murderers dont deserve to be in jail any more than the victim, right?

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#68

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:12 pm

Nessa wrote:How do you know the cause isnt ourselves that is influenced by other factors such as genes, environment, other people, personal preferences etc?
But all of these can be causes in of themselves: you, genes, the environment, other people, national events--even reading about national events---etc.. All of them can be a part of the creation of a final event either together or in part. Perhaps even the thought that "boogers don't taste good."

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#69

Post by Philip » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:19 pm

Audacity: The hows and particulars of the cause/effect chain are typically unknown and even unknowable.
And so you know this is unknowable HOW? y:-?
Audacity: So it is highly unlikely anyone could point them out.
But you apparently have pointed this out as - what - as meaningless speculation? Certainty y#-o - nope.

What you are essentially asserting is that no one is ultimately responsible for their own actions and decisions, and that, ultimately, none of any of that truly matters anyone. Follow that logic, and the one who adopts it should (but likely won't) realize yours is mere opinion and irrelevant - least on this subject.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#70

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:22 pm

Nessa wrote:Don't you see how this line of thinking takes away a persons ability to rightfully own their own behaviour?

"I had no choice but to molest your three year old..."
"I had no choice but to torture your wife/husband/child.."
"I had no choice but to rape her and kill her...."
Not entirely sure what you mean by "own their own behavior," but if nothing else one could say they own their behavior in the sense that no one else did it. I shot the bear, not you.
Actually come to think of it, we are all just victims of an unknown cause.

Murderers dont deserve to be in jail any more than the victim, right?
As I just told Nessa, "The lack of free will can certainly fly in the face of some of our most cherished concepts and can certainly be disconcerting, but this doesn't invalidate it."

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#71

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:36 pm

Audacity wrote:
Nessa wrote:Don't you see how this line of thinking takes away a persons ability to rightfully own their own behaviour?

"I had no choice but to molest your three year old..."
"I had no choice but to torture your wife/husband/child.."
"I had no choice but to rape her and kill her...."
Not entirely sure what you mean by "own their own behavior," but if nothing else one could say they own their behavior in the sense that no one else did it. I shot the bear, not you.
Actually come to think of it, we are all just victims of an unknown cause.

Murderers dont deserve to be in jail any more than the victim, right?
As I just told Nessa, "The lack of free will can certainly fly in the face of some of our most cherished concepts and can certainly be disconcerting, but this doesn't invalidate it."
My seven year old is great at not owning his own behaviour and actions.

He spills something...

'yeah, but it was your fault! You made me do it!

While the other person is on the otherside of the room doing nothing :lol:

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#72

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:38 pm

Of course now I will tell him he had no choice BUT to spill the milk and that we'll let the 'cause' clean it up.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#73

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:50 pm

Philip wrote:
Audacity: The hows and particulars of the cause/effect chain are typically unknown and even unknowable.
And so you know this is unknowable HOW? y:-?
The demonstrated limited ability of the human brain.
Audacity: So it is highly unlikely anyone could point them out.
But you apparently have pointed this out as - what - as meaningless speculation?
Nope, as meaningful insight. y*-:)
What you are essentially asserting is that no one is ultimately responsible for their own actions and decisions, and that, ultimately, none of any of that truly matters anyone.
Responsibility in which it's reasonable to assign praise or blame, nope. However, whether or not any of it matters to anyone would be pure speculation. I simply don't know who it matters to and does not matter to. Yet, because the human mind is caught in the illusion of free will it will readily assign such responsibility and praise and blame various acts.
Follow that logic, and the one who adopts it should (but likely won't) realize yours is mere opinion and irrelevant - least on this subject.
It's disheartening that you would think that because the conclusion that no one is ultimately responsible for their own actions and decisions, it must be a conclusion that has no more basis than opinion. Honestly, you sound like you're afraid of the fact that free will doesn't exist, particularly in light of your conclusion that it's an irrelevant opinion.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#74

Post by Audacity » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:56 pm

Nessa wrote:
My seven year old is great at not owning his own behaviour and actions.

He spills something...

'yeah, but it was your fault! You made me do it!

While the other person is on the otherside of the room doing nothing :lol:
Ah, the wit and wisdom of children. We should listen to them more often . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .unless, that is, we have to spend all day with them.

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Re: The Delusion of "Free Will"

#75

Post by Nessa » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:00 pm

Audacity wrote:
Nessa wrote:
My seven year old is great at not owning his own behaviour and actions.

He spills something...

'yeah, but it was your fault! You made me do it!

While the other person is on the otherside of the room doing nothing :lol:
Ah, the wit and wisdom of children. We should listen to them more often . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .unless, that is, we have to spend all day with them.
Children can indeed often be wise and insightful...

But in this case, Micah was not being so.

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