Is Belief in God Delusional or Non-Belief?

[RickD]

kenny wrote:
According to your what you said, if a person had enough money, they could pay you to commit suicide; all they would have to do is pay you a billion dollars to convince yourself that you could fly like a bird, then pay you another billion to demonstrate it by jumping off the Golden Gate bridge. It doesn't work that way for me because reason and logic would not allow me to believe something I know is impossible; not even for all the money in the world, but evidently it does for you; right?

No. Please ignore the silliness of what I said there. I was talking about what I said here:

Kenny,

You're missing the point. You have thought about the idea that God exists. You have looked at different arguments from both sides. And in your mind, you think the arguments for God not existing, outweigh the arguments for His existence. Therefore, you choose to believe God doesn't exist.

Whatever we believe about anything, we choose to believe that, as opposed to something else.

I choose to believe my wife loves me, as opposed to choosing to believe she doesn't.

I choose to believe that if I go to the beach on a summer day in Florida, without sunscreen, I will get a sunburn.

I choose to believe God exists.

You do understand that, don't you?

What part of that would you possibly disagree with?

[Kenny]

kenny wrote:
According to your what you said, if a person had enough money, they could pay you to commit suicide; all they would have to do is pay you a billion dollars to convince yourself that you could fly like a bird, then pay you another billion to demonstrate it by jumping off the Golden Gate bridge. It doesn't work that way for me because reason and logic would not allow me to believe something I know is impossible; not even for all the money in the world, but evidently it does for you; right?

No. Please ignore the silliness of what I said there. I was talking about what I said here:

Kenny,

You're missing the point. You have thought about the idea that God exists. You have looked at different arguments from both sides. And in your mind, you think the arguments for God not existing, outweigh the arguments for His existence. Therefore, you choose to believe God doesn't exist.

Whatever we believe about anything, we choose to believe that, as opposed to something else.

I choose to believe my wife loves me, as opposed to choosing to believe she doesn't.

I choose to believe that if I go to the beach on a summer day in Florida, without sunscreen, I will get a sunburn.

I choose to believe God exists.

You do understand that, don't you?

What part of that would you possibly disagree with?

RickD
You're missing the point. You have thought about the idea that God exists. You have looked at different arguments from both sides. And in your mind, you think the arguments for God not existing, outweigh the arguments for His existence.

Ken
Yes! In my mind I used the tools of logic and reason to conclude the arguments against God’s existence outweigh the arguments for his existence.


RickD
Therefore, you choose to believe God doesn't exist.


Ken
No, that conclusion I reached was a result of which a body of evidence sounds more realistic to me, it was not a choice.


RickD
I choose to believe my wife loves me, as opposed to choosing to believe she doesn't.

Ken
Could you choose to believe she does not love you? Even if her life were on the line? Perhaps you can, but I cannot choose to believe someone doesn’t love me when I know they do. I cannot choose to believe something I know is untrue. The only way I can change my mind on an issue is if I became convinced my previous beliefs were wrong; I cannot “willy nilly” choose to believe one thing one day, then choose to believe something else the next day out of convenience. Perhaps this doesn’t make sense to you, but that’s okay; this is obviously where we disagree.

Ken

[RickD]

Kenny,

I'm really confused as to why you feel you need to disagree with me. I'm not trying to prove to you that you choose to believe God doesn't exist, so when you agree with me, I can hit you with some "gotcha".

You are literally disagreeing with the definition of choice. You're not disagreeing with me.

I'm not saying that if you choose to believe God doesn't exist, that you just made that choice "Willy nilly". Someone could take mere moments, or decades, looking over evidence before they actually make a choice about a specific thing.

Here is basically what you're saying..

I Kenny, have looked at all the evidence that was presented to me from both sides of the argument for God's existence. And after long consideration, I feel that there is overwhelming evidence that God does not exist. Therefore, I choose to believe God does not exist. My choice wasn't a quick choice. My choice was made after many years of reflection.


See Kenny? I have used choose and choice as they are defined. I'm not making an argument here about whether you are right or wrong in your choosing atheism. I'm just trying to show you that you weren't forced into being an atheist. You chose, on your own, to become an atheist after processing the evidence.

[Kenny]

Kenny,

I'm really confused as to why you feel you need to disagree with me. I'm not trying to prove to you that you choose to believe God doesn't exist, so when you agree with me, I can hit you with some "gotcha".

You are literally disagreeing with the definition of choice. You're not disagreeing with me.

I'm not saying that if you choose to believe God doesn't exist, that you just made that choice "Willy nilly". Someone could take mere moments, or decades, looking over evidence before they actually make a choice about a specific thing.

Here is basically what you're saying..

I Kenny, have looked at all the evidence that was presented to me from both sides of the argument for God's existence. And after long consideration, I feel that there is overwhelming evidence that God does not exist. Therefore, I choose to believe God does not exist. My choice wasn't a quick choice. My choice was made after many years of reflection.


See Kenny? I have used choose and choice as they are defined. I'm not making an argument here about whether you are right or wrong in your choosing atheism. I'm just trying to show you that you weren't forced into being an atheist. You chose, on your own, to become an atheist after processing the evidence.

I define choosing as having multiple options. So getting back to the question I asked, if you say you choose to believe your wife loves you, that would mean you have the option to believe she does not. In order to have the option to believe she does not love you, you must be capable of believing she does not.
So getting back to the question I asked, and taking into account of what you currently know of your wife, and what you currently know of yourself; are you capable of believing your wife does not love you?


Ken

[RickD]

kenny wrote:
I define choosing as having multiple options.

Yes. Choose means to pick from more than one possibility.

So getting back to the question I asked, if you say you choose to believe your wife loves you, that would mean you have the option to believe she does not.

Yes. I have the ability to choose to believe she doesn't love me.

In order to have the option to believe she does not love you, you must be capable of believing she does not.

In order to have the option to choose to believe she doesn't love me, I must be capable of choosing to believe she doesn't. I don't have to be able to believe she doesn't love me. I only have to have two or more choices. And after knowing my wife for 22 years, I choose to believe she loves me. Just like you choose to believe God doesn't exist.

So getting back to the question I asked, and taking into account of what you currently know of your wife, and what you currently know of yourself; are you capable of believing your wife does not love you?

I think I see your confusion. You think that in order to be able to choose between two or more things, you must be able to believe them both.

That's just not part of choosing. Choosing is simply having two or more options. They can both be almost equal in their appeal. Or one can be almost completely unbelievable, which would mean the other choice would be the logical one.

[Kenny]

Here is where we disagree

In order to have the option to choose to believe she doesn't love me, I must be capable of choosing to believe she doesn't. I don't have to be able to believe she doesn't love me.

In order to be capable of choosing to believe something, I believe you must be able to believe it.
If you are unable to believe X you are unable to choose to believe X.

Ken

[RickD]

Here is where we disagree

In order to have the option to choose to believe she doesn't love me, I must be capable of choosing to believe she doesn't. I don't have to be able to believe she doesn't love me.

In order to be capable of choosing to believe something, I believe you must be able to believe it.
If you are unable to believe X you are unable to choose to believe X.

Ken

So instead, you choose Y, which is the more logical choice.

Edit **

Let's assume for the sake of the discussion, there are only two options. Two choices.

1) believe God exists

2) believe God doesn't exist

Kenny,

You have ruled out choice #1, because you are unable to believe God exists. You cannot choose #1.

For you, option 2 is believable. To you, believing God doesn't exist, is logical.

So, you choose option #2.

It's as simple as that. No need to overthink it.

[Kenny]

Here is where we disagree

In order to have the option to choose to believe she doesn't love me, I must be capable of choosing to believe she doesn't. I don't have to be able to believe she doesn't love me.

In order to be capable of choosing to believe something, I believe you must be able to believe it.
If you are unable to believe X you are unable to choose to believe X.

Ken

So instead, you choose Y, which is the more logical choice.

Not that I chose Y, I deduced Y. Once you come up with the right answer, and you understand why it is the right answer, all the wrong answers are no longer an option for you.

ken

[RickD]

Here is where we disagree

In order to have the option to choose to believe she doesn't love me, I must be capable of choosing to believe she doesn't. I don't have to be able to believe she doesn't love me.

In order to be capable of choosing to believe something, I believe you must be able to believe it.
If you are unable to believe X you are unable to choose to believe X.

Ken

So instead, you choose Y, which is the more logical choice.

Not that I chose Y, I deduced Y. Once you come up with the right answer, and you understand why it is the right answer, all the wrong answers are no longer an option for you.

ken

By the definition of choose:

pick out or select (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives

You're telling me that you arrived at the conclusion(deduced) that God doesn't exist, but you don't choose to believe God doesn't exist? That's really what you think?

[Kenny]

Here is where we disagree

In order to have the option to choose to believe she doesn't love me, I must be capable of choosing to believe she doesn't. I don't have to be able to believe she doesn't love me.

In order to be capable of choosing to believe something, I believe you must be able to believe it.
If you are unable to believe X you are unable to choose to believe X.

Ken

So instead, you choose Y, which is the more logical choice.

Not that I chose Y, I deduced Y. Once you come up with the right answer, and you understand why it is the right answer, all the wrong answers are no longer an option for you.

ken

By the definition of choose:

pick out or select (someone or something) as being the best or most appropriate of two or more alternatives

You're telling me that you arrived at the conclusion(deduced) that God doesn't exist, but you don't choose to believe God doesn't exist? That's really what you think?

Yes that's what I think. Just like I don't choose to believe 1+1=2. Once I know the right answer, all the other answers are no longer an option.

Ken

[RickD]

kenny wrote:
Yes that's what I think. Just like I don't choose to believe 1+1=2. Once I know the right answer, all the other answers are no longer an option.

So,

You know God doesn't exist?

[Kenny]

kenny wrote:
Yes that's what I think. Just like I don't choose to believe 1+1=2. Once I know the right answer, all the other answers are no longer an option.

So,

You know God doesn't exist?

I am 100% convinced the God discribed in the Old Testament doesn't exist. Do I have proof? Of course not. Evidence? Not enough to convince you, but definitely enough to my satisfaction

Ken

[RickD]

kenny wrote:
Yes that's what I think. Just like I don't choose to believe 1+1=2. Once I know the right answer, all the other answers are no longer an option.

So,

You know God doesn't exist?

I am 100% convinced the God discribed in the Old Testament doesn't exist. Do I have proof? Of course not. Evidence? Not enough to convince you, but definitely enough to my satisfaction

Ken

You have evidence that God doesn't exist?

Do you mind sharing it?

[Kenny]

kenny wrote:
Yes that's what I think. Just like I don't choose to believe 1+1=2. Once I know the right answer, all the other answers are no longer an option.

So,

You know God doesn't exist?

I am 100% convinced the God discribed in the Old Testament doesn't exist. Do I have proof? Of course not. Evidence? Not enough to convince you, but definitely enough to my satisfaction

Ken

You have evidence that God doesn't exist?

Do you mind sharing it?

Earlier a few pages back, I listed a few reasons, I believe it was to ablecainsbrother. It basically boils down to, the bible describes God as being all good, all knowing, all powerful and present everywhere. But when you look at the Bible, there seem to be specific times when God’s actions contradict those descriptions of him. Basically you can’t be all good, yet do bad things. You can’t be all knowing yet act surprised, or change your mind occasionally etc. etc.

Then there is my personal experiences; back in the day when I was a believer, and I tried to have a relationship with God, knowing what I went through to no avail; if God did exist I believe I would have experienced him. I guess the invisible and the non-existent sorta look alike to me; if something is invisible, to me that is evidence that it doesn't exist.

Ken

[Kurieuo]

I accept Christ's endorsement, so look more carefully at the OT descriptions of God which are predominantly to do with Israel who entered into a pact with God. When you think about it, their promise to God, entering into agreement with God, is something quite scary.

Perhaps some think God ought to be a big softy because they see his abode as being on white fluffy clouds or something. As CS Lewis remarked, "What do people mean when they say, 'I am not afraid of God because I know He is good'? Have they never even been to a dentist?"